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Night fighter defense - 1/11/2017 3:46:12 PM   
SheperdN7


Posts: 296
Joined: 2/23/2016
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		Hi all, I hope it's forum still gets a visitor every now and then but I've been playing 1943 grand campaign as Luftwaffe against a friend, he has carved a corridor from the pas-de-Calais to the industrial Rhur region. He is doing a sustained night bombing campaign of the areas in the Ruhr and I am having a very tough time stopping him. My main night fighter production is He-219 A-2's and Do-217 N's but I'm willing to change it based on the advice that anyone is willing to give me to stop this dark night offensive.

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Post #: 1
RE: Night fighter defense - 1/11/2017 4:38:14 PM   
warshipbuilder


Posts: 1960
Joined: 2/23/2013
From: C-eh-n-eh-d-eh
Status: offline 		I think the Ju88C-6 is a better bet than the 217N.

From Vancouver but living in central Ontario. Yeah I know, I ask myself that question everyday from the middle of November until April.

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RE: Night fighter defense - 1/13/2017 6:43:37 PM   
CCIP-subsim


Posts: 695
Joined: 11/10/2015
Status: offline 		Don't forget the flak aspect of it, too :)

I have noticed also that chasing the bomber stream through unpopulated space tends to result in very few kills; while fighters operating with spotlights and flak in the area seem to get a real boost from the ground defences. I would try to focus on saturating the likely targets and approaches to them with flak - the Ruhr is especially good for this since it's so full of targets (and therefore the enemy has to fly over some to get to others). If your radar coverage has been knocked out over the likely approaches, I'd not bother sending night fighters (in any serious number, anyway) into space that doesn't have effective radar coverage. Seeing that you can't actually stop a night bomber stream from hitting what they want to hit anyway, I'd put my bets (and my fighters) over flak-covered areas where you're most likely to hurt them.

Ju-88C also seems like a good bet to me since it's nearly as good as the others in terms of performance but at much less drain on resources.
I've seen FW-190s do some really good work as highlighters too, but then it made me think of what a waste of perfectly good day fighters that was...

Oh, and it looks like we have a bit of a Canadian club (southwestern and occasionally southeastern Ontario here!)

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Post #: 3
RE: Night fighter defense - 2/23/2017 5:38:44 PM   
Kursk1943

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 3/15/2014
From: Bavaria in Southern Germany
Status: offline 		Accumulating my nightfighters over the target cities - that's what I also did, but I lost quite a number of fighters by own flak, now I tend to do more interception on the bombers' way to and from the target. Not sure about the right concept.

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RE: Night fighter defense - 2/24/2017 6:40:57 AM   
TaggedYa

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 10/9/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

Hi all, I hope it's forum still gets a visitor every now and then but I've been playing 1943 grand campaign as Luftwaffe against a friend, he has carved a corridor from the pas-de-Calais to the industrial Rhur region. He is doing a sustained night bombing campaign of the areas in the Ruhr and I am having a very tough time stopping him. My main night fighter production is He-219 A-2's and Do-217 N's but I'm willing to change it based on the advice that anyone is willing to give me to stop this dark night offensive.

What is the current date? Advice changes greatly depending on the state of the Elent war.

By "carved a corridor" I am presuming you mean he is knocking out the radars so your having problems intercepting his raids. The cure for this is Rail Flak. Put one each low level and high level rail flak on the seven radar installations that are closest to fixed or are already active. Give preference to 2 of the long range radars. The object is to get the most shots at his planes as you can. Very soon he will start to run out of bombers with the moral to hit radars through flak and his campaign will end.

You can also put lots of flak at the individual sites and a balloon or 3. Try to think of flak as an offensive weapon not a defensive one. Figure out where he is going to need to go allot and put your flak there. Not at a oil refinery he might bomb sometime next year.

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The Vociferously Verbose

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RE: Night fighter defense - 2/24/2017 2:27:23 PM   
Soldmax

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 1/25/2017
From: Strana Sovetov
Status: offline 		I always considered Do217N being a very good night fighter - maybe little bit slow but good range and notable firepower. It also consumes 2 obsolete engines that are sometimes in stock unlike the He219.
I prefer it to all Bf-110 variants - even the later ones. In my experience 88C is a match to Dornier and only with 88G it starts to make sense to upgrade to Junkers.

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Post #: 6
RE: Night fighter defense - 2/24/2017 7:59:29 PM   
SheperdN7


Posts: 296
Joined: 2/23/2016
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		Thanks all, good to see some fellow canucks on here. Also it is January 16th, 1944 and yes, most of the radars have been knocked out. I do a pretty good job against my opponent on the daylight bombing aspect of the game, even making him cease daylight operations for a few days at a time but his night campaign has been essentially untouched.

I was looking towards producing night fighters that have lots of detection equipment, that way I would not necessarily "need" to protect the radar sights as my fighters could detect and intercept the raids on their own.

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AE PBEM against Mogami (Early'44)
WITE PBEM against Boomer Sooner

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Post #: 7
RE: Night fighter defense - 2/24/2017 11:46:26 PM   
TaggedYa

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 10/9/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7
Thanks all, good to see some fellow canucks on here. Also it is January 16th, 1944 and yes, most of the radars have been knocked out. I do a pretty good job against my opponent on the daylight bombing aspect of the game, even making him cease daylight operations for a few days at a time but his night campaign has been essentially untouched.

Ok, You are well past the Window period so if you can get your radars up you should be able to do something about bomber command. Just note you will never do well against them. The best you can hope for is to cause enough casualties and enough fatigue that you reduce the tempo of his operations by about half. If you can just limit him to really dark nights you will have done well.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7
I was looking towards producing night fighters that have lots of detection equipment, that way I would not necessarily "need" to protect the radar sights as my fighters could detect and intercept the raids on their own.

Unfortunately without the Freya (red range circle) sites you have no hope. The German night defence system was a ground controlled intercept system. Your radars right now have a max range of about 500 meters. Each night-fighter needs to be vectored to within that range to have a hope of getting a contact. Without ground control you are rolling dice and they are heavily loaded against you.

This is one of the things the game simulates very well. Of course you are expected to know how to deal with the various stages of the fight without anything to go on. ELint was in the original game but not to a great extent. The work later that made it work right was never documented.

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TaggedYa

The Vociferously Verbose

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Post #: 8
RE: Night fighter defense - 2/25/2017 6:11:59 AM   
Kursk1943

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 3/15/2014
From: Bavaria in Southern Germany
Status: offline 		SheperdN7:

Off topic, but I want to let you know that I've been to Brandon in the mid 80's with the German army (tank gunnery training at Shilo), we used to have a nice drink or two in Brandon...I liked the spacy prairies im Manitoba a lot as you can imagine coming from crowed Germay.

< Message edited by Peter Zimmermann -- 2/27/2017 2:11:40 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Night fighter defense - 2/28/2017 7:17:47 PM   
SheperdN7


Posts: 296
Joined: 2/23/2016
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

Unfortunately without the Freya (red range circle) sites you have no hope.


What makes the Freya sites so different and special from the other radar sites? Elefants I believe?

quote:

SheperdN7:

Off topic, but I want to let you know that I've been to Brandon in the mid 80's with the German army (tank gunnery training at Shilo), we used to have a nice drink or two in Brandon...I liked the spacy prairies im Manitoba a lot as you can imagine coming from crowed Germay.


Well mid 80's is about 10 years before my time but that is really cool though! I'm guessing we were still equipped with Leopard C1's while you would have early model Leopard II's?

Haven't been to CFB Shilo but plan on joining the forces after I graduate Uni in 3 years time. Was putting heavy thinking into either infantry or armoured too!


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AE PBEM against Mogami (Early'44)
WITE PBEM against Boomer Sooner

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Post #: 10
RE: Night fighter defense - 2/28/2017 7:43:43 PM   
Kursk1943

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 3/15/2014
From: Bavaria in Southern Germany
Status: offline 		Well, it was 1988, at that time I was a platoonleader Leopard 1, after becoming company commander in 1990 I "upgraded" to Leopard II.

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Post #: 11
RE: Night fighter defense - 2/28/2017 9:33:33 PM   
SheperdN7


Posts: 296
Joined: 2/23/2016
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

Well, it was 1988, at that time I was a platoonleader Leopard 1, after becoming company commander in 1990 I "upgraded" to Leopard II.


9 years before I was born...

Did you ever return to Canada for any exercises in the 90's?

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Current Games:

WitP:AE PBEM against Greg (Late '44)
AE PBEM against Mogami (Early'44)
WITE PBEM against Boomer Sooner

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Post #: 12
RE: Night fighter defense - 3/1/2017 6:27:27 AM   
Kursk1943

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 3/15/2014
From: Bavaria in Southern Germany
Status: offline 		No, never returned with the Army, but we've met some Canadian girls down in Fargo on our free weekend during our 3 weeks at Shilo and met them again in Winnipeg, where they lived. I then had a Canadian girlfriend for about a year, I visited her once in November 1988 in Winnipeg and once she me in Germany. Oh, those happy days long gone now...
I left the Army last year in June and got plenty of time now to play my favourite wargames.

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Post #: 13
RE: Night fighter defense - 3/1/2017 8:43:11 PM   
Soldmax

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 1/25/2017
From: Strana Sovetov
Status: offline 		Couple of yrs ago playing BTR I had over 100 victories Sep44 in 44 campaign game - I did not use any possible cheating-probable mechanics that time. But it happens very rare - most of time it is not more than 30 NB down with flak being 50% of the reason. Should you win the daytime airwar with British they may start to suffer from pilot shortage.
Newer NJ models - even 388J does not make much difference. 262B is a total waste of resources. Sometimes in the recent played games I managed to use Me262A for night intercept - when the moon is 16-18 or attacking returning bombers in the morning they can do a remarkable job

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Post #: 14
RE: Night fighter defense - 3/1/2017 8:45:56 PM   
Soldmax

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 1/25/2017
From: Strana Sovetov
Status: offline 		Forgot the attachment





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 15
RE: Night fighter defense - 3/1/2017 8:51:08 PM   
Wijter

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 10/10/2013
Status: offline 		In early 1944 NF will still rely on ground control and support from Flak and searchlights.
So first try to identify his target or target area.
Next break up the NF Units in Groups of 4 machines and direkt them to the target area.
Do not allow the Computer to assign NF to Targets. Do this manually, and wait till you get a confirmation, that the target is not a decoy, a fast flying intruder or a decoy. Flak will be your friend, you will see a message if Flak hits an enemy bomber.
As soon as you have identified a real target (Stirling, Lancaster, Wellington or Halifax), assign a NF nearby to engage.
There is no Need to go for Mossies, from my experience this is wasted time.

And yes, there is a danger to loose NF to Flak.

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Post #: 16
RE: Night fighter defense - 2/1/2018 7:36:48 AM   
SheperdN7


Posts: 296
Joined: 2/23/2016
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		Just a update, the moving of flak has helped decrease the ampunt of damgage that is dealt by the night bombers, my night fighters are also achieving more kills since I have put them at patrol altitudes equal to the bomber streams. It is now June, 1944 post D-day and my opponents losses have gotten to the point where he has told me he has had to rethink strategies a couple times.

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Current Games:

WitP:AE PBEM against Greg (Late '44)
AE PBEM against Mogami (Early'44)
WITE PBEM against Boomer Sooner

(in reply to Wijter)
Post #: 17
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