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Disappearing ship wrecks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 8:34:21 AM

Alfred

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A few weeks ago there was a thread on WWII sunk ships in Indonesian waters which were disappearing. Some of the posters were speculating on covert salvaging Indonesian operations.

This article

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-27/why-are-world-war-ii-naval-wrecks-vanishing-in-indonesia/8301782

goes into factual detail on the issue. The article has many hyper links back to official sites which provide additional factual information.

Alfred

< Message edited by wdolson -- 2/28/2017 2:16:12 AM >

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 10:10:56 AM

Hotei

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The war time ABDA nations should have considerable weight in jointly demanding to stop this activity, it is obvious the Indonesian government is allowing this.

Politicians that lack the will to make this in to an international dispute if need be should be exposed to the electorates.

Netherlands is limited in its foreign policy by EU but USA, UK and Australia are free to act.

(in reply to Alfred)

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 12:48:35 PM

Chickenboy

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Plenty of speculation, hearsay and postulation in that article too as well as some unearthed or hitherto understated factual information.

I'm surprised-perhaps I shouldn't be-by the 'it's not our problem' attitude by the Indonesian officials quoted. The Dutch, British, Australians and Americans could *make it* their problem tomorrow if they wanted to.

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 1:24:29 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

This article goes into factual detail on the issue. The article has many hyper links back to official sites which provide additional factual information.

I smelled thievery since day one.

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 4:41:22 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotei

The war time ABDA nations should have considerable weight in jointly demanding to stop this activity, it is obvious the Indonesian government is allowing this.

Politicians that lack the will to make this in to an international dispute if need be should be exposed to the electorates.

Netherlands is limited in its foreign policy by EU but USA, UK and Australia are free to act.

warspite1

Why is the UK different to the Netherlands please?

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Post #: 5

RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 5:06:09 PM

Hotei

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotei

The war time ABDA nations should have considerable weight in jointly demanding to stop this activity, it is obvious the Indonesian government is allowing this.

Politicians that lack the will to make this in to an international dispute if need be should be exposed to the electorates.

Netherlands is limited in its foreign policy by EU but USA, UK and Australia are free to act.

warspite1

Why is the UK different to the Netherlands please?

Brexit.

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 6

RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 5:06:49 PM

crsutton

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You have to put it in perspective. Although these warship are venerated by us. It is pretty hard to imagine that the average Indonesian would look at it the same way. The Dutch as colonizers were about as brutal as could be and they were just as hated in the DEI as their Japanese liberators. The victorious Allies instead of bending to Indonesian desires for self rule stood by while the Dutch attempted to re-assume control after the war. Why would anyone there care much about monuments to their colonial masters? This is a poor country and the ships are there to be scrapped in the eyes of most of the people. Sometimes when you are poor it is easy to put sentiment aside. I don't know if there is any international law protecting these ships as monuments though. If not, then they are open to salvage just like any sunken ship.

I am not arguing that what the Indonesians are doing is right or wrong. However, I think it is wise to put yourself in their shoes before you start calling them out.

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 5:10:01 PM

Hotei

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

You have to put it in perspective. Although these warship are venerated by us. It is pretty hard to imagine that the average Indonesian would look at it the same way. The Dutch as colonizers were about as brutal as could be and they were just as hated in the DEI as their Japanese liberators. The victorious Allies instead of bending to Indonesian desires for self rule stood by while the Dutch attempted to re-assume control after the war. Why would anyone there care much about monuments to their colonial masters? This is a poor country and the ships are there to be scrapped in the eyes of most of the people. Sometimes when you are poor it is easy to put sentiment aside. I don't know if there is any international law protecting these ships as monuments though. If not, then they are open to salvage just like any sunken ship.

I am not arguing that what the Indonesians are doing is right or wrong. However, I think it is wise to put yourself in their shoes before you start calling them out.

They will protect them if they value the relations, it is up to them.
Maybe they all want to invite the Chinese in.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 8

RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 5:11:08 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

You have to put it in perspective. Although these warship are venerated by us. It is pretty hard to imagine that the average Indonesian would look at it the same way. The Dutch as colonizers were about as brutal as could be and they were just as hated in the DEI as their Japanese liberators. The victorious Allies instead of bending to Indonesian desires for self rule stood by while the Dutch attempted to re-assume control after the war. Why would anyone there care much about monuments to their colonial masters? This is a poor country and the ships are there to be scrapped in the eyes of most of the people. Sometimes when you are poor it is easy to put sentiment aside. I don't know if there is any international law protecting these ships as monuments though. If not, then they are open to salvage just like any sunken ship.

I am not arguing that what the Indonesians are doing is right or wrong. However, I think it is wise to put yourself in their shoes before you start calling them out.

Aye. And it's also an unwarranted assumption that the aforementioned nations would continue support for Indonesia in other efforts should Indonesia fail to honor common assumptions about treatment of war dead.

So-if they want to continue to thumb their collective nose at the most basic treatment of our war graves, they'd better expect repurcussions. It would be wise of their government to consider 'the big picture' before throwing their hands up and saying 'there's nothing we can do'. My guess is that there is.

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 5:15:35 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotei

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotei

The war time ABDA nations should have considerable weight in jointly demanding to stop this activity, it is obvious the Indonesian government is allowing this.

Politicians that lack the will to make this in to an international dispute if need be should be exposed to the electorates.

Netherlands is limited in its foreign policy by EU but USA, UK and Australia are free to act.

warspite1

Why is the UK different to the Netherlands please?

Brexit.

warspite1

If and when it happens that may be an option. Right now we remain part of Europe.

And for the avoidance of doubt that wasn't an excuse to bring that up; I wasn't sure if there was something within our membership that you were referring to specifically.

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 5:21:38 PM

Hotei

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

If and when it happens that may be an option. Right now we remain part of Europe.

And for the avoidance of doubt that wasn't an excuse to bring that up; I wasn't sure if there was something within our membership that you were referring to specifically.

EU is not the same as Europe and you left just before it implodes.

(in reply to warspite1)

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 5:24:39 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

You have to put it in perspective. Although these warship are venerated by us. It is pretty hard to imagine that the average Indonesian would look at it the same way. The Dutch as colonizers were about as brutal as could be and they were just as hated in the DEI as their Japanese liberators. The victorious Allies instead of bending to Indonesian desires for self rule stood by while the Dutch attempted to re-assume control after the war. Why would anyone there care much about monuments to their colonial masters? This is a poor country and the ships are there to be scrapped in the eyes of most of the people. Sometimes when you are poor it is easy to put sentiment aside. I don't know if there is any international law protecting these ships as monuments though. If not, then they are open to salvage just like any sunken ship.

I am not arguing that what the Indonesians are doing is right or wrong. However, I think it is wise to put yourself in their shoes before you start calling them out.

warspite1

I don't think this has anything to do with the old colonial chestnut. Its a convenient excuse of course, but as you say, Indonesia is a poor country and I doubt it would matter a damn which country these ships belonged to.

As an aside, I wonder if there were a few Indonesian nationals serving in the navy? Maybe war graves for Indonesians too? Not, for the reasons mentioned above, that it would make the slightest bit of difference.

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 5:26:14 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotei

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

If and when it happens that may be an option. Right now we remain part of Europe.

And for the avoidance of doubt that wasn't an excuse to bring that up; I wasn't sure if there was something within our membership that you were referring to specifically.

EU is not the same as Europe and you left just before it implodes.

warspite1

Except we haven't left. And yes, I knew that the political EU is different from the geographic Europe

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 5:48:00 PM

Canoerebel

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The smartest person I knew in my early school years, Karen Crow, couldn't spell a lick. It's encouraging to see Alfred is mortal (I realize this is a mis-click rather than not knowing how to spell the word, but still....the guy made a mistake!)

Attachment (1)

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 8:16:43 PM

Skyros

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Thank you Alfred.

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RE: Disappearing ship wreaks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 9:50:01 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The smartest person I knew in my early school years, Karen Crow, couldn't spell a lick. It's encouraging to see Alfred is mortal (I realize this is a mis-click rather than not knowing how to spell the word, but still....the guy made a mistake!)

OMG!!!!!

You mean he is human.

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RE: Disappearing ship wrecks in Indonesia - 2/27/2017 9:53:29 PM

rustysi

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Yes, it is a touchy and multifaceted topic. I for one wish they could all be left alone (including Titanic), but that is JMHO. Thanks for the post Alfred.

< Message edited by wdolson -- 2/28/2017 2:16:37 AM >

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RE: Disappearing ship wrecks in Indonesia - 2/28/2017 2:17:19 AM

wdolson

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Spelling fixed. It's odd, but I just noticed the spelling was wrong before I opened this thread today.

Bill

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RE: Disappearing ship wrecks in Indonesia - 2/28/2017 3:06:37 AM

SheperdN7

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Pure ignorance is all it is. I get how the population and government may hate the Dutch colonials for essentially subjugating them but still... Do they honestly believe life under the Rising Sun would be (or was) any better?

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RE: Disappearing ship wrecks in Indonesia - 2/28/2017 5:25:37 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Yes, it is a touchy and multifaceted topic. I for one wish they could all be left alone (including Titanic), but that is JMHO. Thanks for the post Alfred.

Meanwhile, we encourage divers to think about finding a sunken Spanish treasure galleon laden with loot to be salvaged. And archaeologists go bananas when they find a wrecked ancient galley with intact pottery and trinkets. At what age does a shipwreck become an archaeological find or a legit treasure-hunter's target?

As was mentioned above, for poor people the scrap metal of the wrecks is treasure. The human remains have long since dissolved away, so it is the memorial remains of their ship that is being removed.

The thing I have issue with is (in one of the links from Alfred's cited article) the Chinese have a huge salvage vessel taking apart entire cruisers, with the supposed purpose of "research" that some university signed off about (no doubt after a sizeable contribution). The mangled metal being pulled up by the ship's cranes appears to have been blasted off the wreck. There could be some value in pre-atomic age metal for research, but there is definitely no archaeology going on there.

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RE: Disappearing ship wrecks in Indonesia - 2/28/2017 10:33:01 AM

Zorch

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Illegal salvage is also a problem in the North Sea. In 'Jutland 1916: The Archaeology of a Naval Battlefield' the author shows pictures of damage to Jutland wrecks.
All but 2 of the ships sunk there have been identified.

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RE: Disappearing ship wrecks in Indonesia - 2/28/2017 6:08:45 PM

mind_messing

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EDIT: Nvm

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 2/28/2017 6:13:05 PM >

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RE: Disappearing ship wrecks in Indonesia - 3/1/2017 4:57:20 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

Pure ignorance is all it is. I get how the population and government may hate the Dutch colonials for essentially subjugating them but still... Do they honestly believe life under the Rising Sun would be (or was) any better?

I seriously doubt they do, but the Dutch were there for a hundred years or more and tried to reestablish control by force after the Japanese left. I don't suppose that there is much fondness for either, but the Dutch footprint is more embedded in local memory. I recommend you read up on Dutch Colonial expansion. They, along with the French and Portuguese proved to be unusually harsh and brutal colonial masters. The British, Australian and even the Germans at were a little more paternal-though that does not mean that they were wonderful.

As for the ships. The urge to salvage is really driven by economics. Pretty hard to reign that in.

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RE: Disappearing ship wrecks in Indonesia - 3/1/2017 5:42:18 PM

warspite1

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The whole linking of this with the colonial past is just missing the point imo. This is human nature, this is greed, this is people from a poor country doing what they can - simply, this is money talks and.....

Is there really a "Oooh I really hate the Dutch, lets dismantle their war graves - and the British and Aussies and Americans too - in a really costly and tricky maritime operation" type scenario going on?? No.

Sure, the fact that these are foreign nations ships may mean that there is more chance of a blind eye being turned, but its not the main driver. As was said above, this problem (on a smaller scale) affects other wrecks in the North Sea too. Where there is money to be made there will be people that ignore the law.

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RE: Disappearing ship wrecks in Indonesia - 3/1/2017 6:29:00 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Is there really a "Oooh I really hate the Dutch, lets dismantle their war graves - and the British and Aussies and Americans too - in a really costly and tricky maritime operation" type scenario going on?? No.

I agree. Only thing going on here is greed and pocket lining. The only question in my mind is how complicit the Indonesian military and / or government is in these activities.

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