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Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 2:40:29 PM   
traskott


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From: Valladolid, Spain
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Hello

Well. I think the title said enough..

I always have the same trouble with the allied CAs: I use them as AAA escorts of my carriers and maybe to escort large transport convoys, but don't think they are really useful as first line-ships. CLs are another thing, but all the Allied CAs, excluding the modern ones USA got from 43 are like the old BBs but less painful to lose... Bad at night-fighting and big enough to eat torpedos twice, low crew xp, the british CAs are even worse, with bad AA equipment and low endurance...

Have you find any successful use of them?

Thanks.
Post #: 1
RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 2:52:07 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		CV escorts.

Occasionally I will use any spare for surface TFs, or break them off from the CV TF as needed/able to do so when leaving an area to provide some parting bombardment...

But otherwise, just CV escorts. Until later in the war when they get a fire control upgrade (and better experience, and frankly better ships in the Baltimores) they just aren't very useful for much else. CV escorts and the occasional bombardment. Do not use them in surface forces unless you have no other choice.


Edit - that applies to USN CAs mostly. British/Australian CAs can be used more extensively due to their better experience. A recent thread had a Japanese player losing a few BBs due to those CAs.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 3/8/2017 2:59:01 PM >

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Post #: 2
RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 2:52:49 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Brit CA's are awesome, in my experience. Their torpedo capability makes them pretty vicious in SAG's. American CA's are good, especially in slowing the advancing Japanese juggernaut. Their problem is low exp., and poor commanders. Given time, they shine. IMHO.

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 2:59:44 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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From: Toronto and Lima
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They will get better with experience and upgrades. Early war, as already mentioned, is better to use them as carrier escort so that they slowly improve experience under not so risky environment.

Once they get better AA and specially the better radars; they can be deadly, in particular if they had gained experience. Moreover you can accept losses, as long as you are inflicting them, because you will be flooded with reinforcements, Japan won't

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Post #: 4
RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 3:56:12 PM   
traskott


Posts: 1546
Joined: 6/23/2008
From: Valladolid, Spain
Status: offline 		Thanks everyody for the answers... Will try to use them as u suggests.

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 6:25:09 PM   
Revthought


Posts: 523
Joined: 1/14/2009
From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
Status: offline 		I use the hell out of them in the early part of the war to sneak around and bombard things, and while it's no substitute for actual combat, I do this so much that their XP gets passable by mid-1942.

In fact, I see no other use for them in the early war. Unless you're a much braver player than I, my CVs spend most of 1942 sitting in port and training air crews. Unlike real life, a Japanese player almost never splits the KB and, with a very few exceptions, the threat of running into the KB is enough to keep my carriers docked. So I don't have a huge need of carrier escorts.

Edit

And Jorge really hit the nail on the head here. My philosophy is use those cruisers to do damage when you can. Even if you lose every one of them, once you hit 1943 you're still going to end up outnumbering the Japanese.

< Message edited by Revthought -- 3/8/2017 6:29:23 PM >

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 6:38:27 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
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From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		All of your ships need experience. And to get that , you need to use them. But that doesn't mean you need to RISK them. As an allied commander you need patrol. Every available sub, plane and disposable ship needs to form a line that will detect the enemy as he approaches you. If you do it right, and have no gaps in a solid, unbroken line, you should have huge areas that are RELATIVELY safe. Yes a sub might get in , but while you might lose one ship, not all. In these "sanctuaries" you need to be active. Convoying may be boring , but it's absolutely essential. You need to put any ship that's not either in actual combat , or in the yard being repaired or upgraded , out on patrol, or convoy or training. If for no other reason , than to prevent your opponent from sending in some kind of surface raid.

EVERY convoy needs an escort. CL's and CA's are great for these. But even an old battleships that's transiting is an excellent vessel to include in a convoy. (I've had more than one opponent thinking he could raid big convoys well inside my lines with a couple of heavy cruisers. Imagine their surprise when they ran into a pair of BB's with a couple of CA's. Their surprise was short lived.

Combat is your best training for ships. Bombardment is your second best. But even just being at sea helps. And it won't do you a bit of good to save every one of your ships if you don't train up their crews. So use them. Just use them cautiously.

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 7:40:58 PM   
Revthought


Posts: 523
Joined: 1/14/2009
From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
Status: offline 		I think you and I approach the game differently. Now granted, it helps I'm not counting up VP, but when I play three thoughts guide my decision:

1. What would the Allies have done?
2. If this were a real war I was fighting, with political necessities as well as military ones, what would I need to do?
3. What are the long term outcomes of my actions?

Using these as my main guiding principles tends to make me very aggressive early war. I feel that doing this meets most, if not all of these criteria. So I will send cruisers and old battleships on suicidal missions that challenge the Japanese player because:

1. I think of the Battle of Java Sea. The Allies, for political reasons more than military ones, had to challenge the invasion of the DEI. For similar reasons I always defend Singapore.

2. Ultimately the game plays out differently to the real war, so I make these decisions on a case by case basis all over the Pacific

3. I am well aware that the Arsenal of Democracy will at some point leave Japan in an untenable position, no matter what m losses in 1942. More importantly, by risking ships I have some success. Through those successes I can slow down Japan because my opponent now needs to take steps to protect every invasion during the expansion period. So I can eliminate that sense of freedom Japanese players have to do things like sail around and drop off troops on dot bases with little more than a destroyer screen.

It is worth mentioning that this is a play-style I evolved into. In one of my first games with Jorge (still ongoing) I learned a lot, and am now a lot better at picking my battles--I lost a carrier and 3 British BBs playing him by being stupidly aggressive.

It's also important to note that playing like this is really predicated on removing autovictory from the calculation. If I were watching every early war VP very closely it would have a huge effect on how I play; however, I personally derive a lot of enjoyment from the "sim" aspect of the game. Being forced by a game mechanic to be what *I* sort of feel is ahistorically cautious really would break immersion for me and make the game less fun. Of course, I recognize that this is just a personal preference. There is no wrong way to play the game.

< Message edited by Revthought -- 3/8/2017 7:45:28 PM >

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 8:12:57 PM   
nashvillen


Posts: 3836
Joined: 7/3/2006
From: Christiana, TN
Status: offline 		Also, remember, while the IJN won't be building anymore CA's and every one they lose is permanent, your losses are not. You will end up replace them beyond what you have now. Be bold, be brave!

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 9:39:22 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Amazingly sometimes theory and reality DO mix nicely. Many years ago in a far distant universe SUN-TZU said that to be effective you must avoid confrontation where your enemy is strong but attack where he (she) is weak. This is exactly what the Allied player should be doing in the first months of the war. To me, the CAs are a vital part of the game plan. As a number of folks have pointed out already, experience is very much needed before the US CAs can go head to head with their Japanese counterparts. Thus, in the opening months of the war I use them in pin **** raids that have little military value but give "combat" experience. This not only applies to the CAs but to the CV aircrews as well. If the Japanese player keeps the KB intact as one of you has already suggested is usually done, this is GOLD!!! Why? Because if you know where the KB is, then you know where NOT TO BE! And combined with any other information that you have, you just might be able to know WHERE to be so as to gain that combat experience as well as throw a stone or two onto the path of the Japanese onslaught. If these stones are big enough (depending upon the Allied player's "stones") then the Japanese just might be derailed from their plans in a few places in the early months of the war. Hal

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 11:00:28 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

All of your ships need experience. And to get that , you need to use them. But that doesn't mean you need to RISK them. As an allied commander you need patrol. Every available sub, plane and disposable ship needs to form a line that will detect the enemy as he approaches you. If you do it right, and have no gaps in a solid, unbroken line, you should have huge areas that are RELATIVELY safe. Yes a sub might get in , but while you might lose one ship, not all. In these "sanctuaries" you need to be active. Convoying may be boring , but it's absolutely essential. You need to put any ship that's not either in actual combat , or in the yard being repaired or upgraded , out on patrol, or convoy or training. If for no other reason , than to prevent your opponent from sending in some kind of surface raid.

EVERY convoy needs an escort. CL's and CA's are great for these. But even an old battleships that's transiting is an excellent vessel to include in a convoy. (I've had more than one opponent thinking he could raid big convoys well inside my lines with a couple of heavy cruisers. Imagine their surprise when they ran into a pair of BB's with a couple of CA's. Their surprise was short lived.

Combat is your best training for ships. Bombardment is your second best. But even just being at sea helps. And it won't do you a bit of good to save every one of your ships if you don't train up their crews. So use them. Just use them cautiously.


Or audaciously, when able.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 11
RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 11:01:17 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nashvillen

Also, remember, while the IJN won't be building anymore CA's and every one they lose is permanent, your losses are not. You will end up replace them beyond what you have now. Be bold, be brave!


Without looking at the numbers, I'm not sure this is entirely true - at least in terms of CAs. I think you only get in replacements about an equal number as you start with, but you get a BUNCH of CA-equivalent Clevelands...

You can survive without having a gaggle of CAs. Clevelands or Fletchers will fill in the AA if you use enough of them. So yes, use them... but don't take undue risks. Or if you do, learn from it when it bites you in the butt.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 3/8/2017 11:02:08 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/8/2017 11:57:09 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
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Status: offline 		The old Allied CA's are a mixed bunch. As noted, the British and Commonwealth CA's are generally on par with their IJN counterparts.

The American CA's are essentially faster, lighter versions of the old, slow BB's. Ideal for bombardment but a bit risky to use them in surface combat. That said, there are a lot of them, and there's something to be said for accuracy by volume.


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Post #: 13
RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/9/2017 12:29:05 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
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From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Problem is also the poor Allied nav search and non-existing recon capabilities early war,

So you really need to be bold to send your CAs into the unknown, as it is not only the KB, but LBAs, Japanese cruisers (light included) and even DD TFs who can ruin your day

Much safer to use the many ancient CLs that you get on the game start, they will die as quickly but at least you know they are expendable ships

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 3/9/2017 12:42:03 AM >

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/9/2017 2:44:57 AM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		I use them because there is not much choice. They still get the job done and are not totally helpless. Only one cardinal rule as the Allies, don't lose your carriers. Every thing else should be in the fight. You have to start sinking Japanese ships right away.

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/9/2017 7:53:11 PM   
bush

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 10/30/2007
From: san jose, ca
Status: offline 		I use them for escorting my TK/AO TFs early in the war. This helps their experience and provides a rude surprise for any light surface raider. I also usually form at least one bombardment TF and try to hit safe areas. This is as much for my own peace of mind (gotta do SOMETHING!) as anything else.

Later I will use them as a surface escort for Amph TFs. Since I normally have an old BB embedded in the Amph TF I like to keep the CAs separate and when I leave a non-atoll site I can have them do a bombardment run that often makes a big difference in breaking up the defenders.

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/10/2017 11:33:37 AM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline 		Some very good suggestions here.

Interestingly I do not (or have not) challenge the IJN in ABDA fashion with my US CA's - especially those saved from the Philippines / Pearl Harbor. The political imperative is noted and very factual; however I play the other way. The ABDA command structure was 'reluctant' and tentative in real life and I choose to assume a different ABDA command posture although like all Allied players I do defend where I can on land.

--

I have consistently made a couple / few of USA early CA's the cornerstone of SOPAC Surface Combat Task Force #1.

They operate as a counter interdiction force from Canton / Baker / Suva / Noumea. Especially as soon as I can quickly arrange some land based air coverage in those same islands - Buffalo's F4F3's or any parts of II Fighter Command (P40B and P40Es) i can quickly scrape together in those locations.

Occasionally they "pincer movement" team up - with AUSPAC Surface Combat Task #1 Force made of Aussie/Kiwi/Dutch assets that operate in the Coral Sea area but especially between Brisbane / Townsville / Port Moresby / Darwin under a land based air umbrella.

These two SCTF forces (working jointly) are rather lethal in my opinion! Especially when joined by Warspite / Colorado from Seattle yards and with judicious use present the IJN a very significant obstacle for Coral Sea Action.

Challenging landings in Rabul (if no Carriers present), Shortlands, Munda, Guadalcanal, PM, Buna with fast hit and run raids.

In real life I hope and presume such a tactic / judicious use could have also significantly challenged IJN expansion through mid 42.



< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 3/10/2017 11:34:53 AM >

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/10/2017 6:31:07 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Status: offline 		Even if the USN CAs are 'light' or less experienced... In the campaign game they're useful (if available) to intercept some of those nasty IJN xAKL invasions in the Solomonns. If available in the Aleutians... commerce raiders! A bit risky, I agree, but the likelihood of IJN naval bombers in the northern part of the home islands... unlikely. 2 x CA, 1 x CL and 3 x DD is usually the outfit I use for it ;)

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/28/2017 7:07:13 AM   
wdolson

 

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I recently read this book:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0933126514/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's a good synopsis of all US cruisers used during the war. In the first year surface action was required when there wasn't enough air available. The US CAs got the call. There was not enough fuel in the South Pacific to keep the old BBs going and there were not enough fast BBs. Plus the doctrine said using BBs in the tight waters around islands was not a good idea. In game CAs and CLs are the go to ships too.

Bill

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/28/2017 1:57:24 PM   
Revthought


Posts: 523
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From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Even if the USN CAs are 'light' or less experienced... In the campaign game they're useful (if available) to intercept some of those nasty IJN xAKL invasions in the Solomonns. If available in the Aleutians... commerce raiders! A bit risky, I agree, but the likelihood of IJN naval bombers in the northern part of the home islands... unlikely. 2 x CA, 1 x CL and 3 x DD is usually the outfit I use for it ;)

Klink, Oberst


I have, on more than one occasion, used CAs operating in the Aleutians to bombard the Japanese home islands during 1942. Not much military value, but I see the morale value is well worth it.

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/28/2017 6:30:05 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


I recently read this book:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0933126514/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's a good synopsis of all US cruisers used during the war. In the first year surface action was required when there wasn't enough air available. The US CAs got the call. There was not enough fuel in the South Pacific to keep the old BBs going and there were not enough fast BBs. Plus the doctrine said using BBs in the tight waters around islands was not a good idea. In game CAs and CLs are the go to ships too.

Bill


Hrm, for $5 and looks like lots of pictures? I added it to my list...

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Post #: 21
RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/29/2017 5:43:33 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
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From: Near Portland, OR
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The book retreads information from other places, but it's a good synopsis that covers all US cruisers of the era.

One thing I thought reading the book was the USN sent a number of Brooklyns to the Atlantic/Europe which should have been sent to the Pacific. They could have traded some Omahas for the Brooklyns. The Brooklyns were much more useful for the kind of war in the Pacific and the Omahas were more than sufficient for the kind of war fought in other theaters.

Another interesting tidbit I noticed, that doesn't really mean anything, but the only three CLs sunk were CL-50, CL-51, and CL-52, though not in that order.

Bill

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/30/2017 11:48:17 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I have, on more than one occasion, used CAs operating in the Aleutians to bombard the Japanese home islands during 1942. Not much military value, but I see the morale value is well worth it.


The AI does something like this too. Most of the time I sink 'em with air and the 'Home Fleet'. Just a few 'Netties' and surface vessels, but what more would I need there in '42.

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Post #: 23
RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/31/2017 2:29:08 PM   
Revthought


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I have, on more than one occasion, used CAs operating in the Aleutians to bombard the Japanese home islands during 1942. Not much military value, but I see the morale value is well worth it.


The AI does something like this too. Most of the time I sink 'em with air and the 'Home Fleet'. Just a few 'Netties' and surface vessels, but what more would I need there in '42.


I've managed to get away with it against humans, but it's always a nail bitter.

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RE: Allied CAs: What to do with them - 3/31/2017 10:21:20 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I have, on more than one occasion, used CAs operating in the Aleutians to bombard the Japanese home islands during 1942. Not much military value, but I see the morale value is well worth it.


The AI does something like this too. Most of the time I sink 'em with air and the 'Home Fleet'. Just a few 'Netties' and surface vessels, but what more would I need there in '42.


I've managed to get away with it against humans, but it's always a nail bitter.


Not saying its impossible, but I do usually keep an eye out.



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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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