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Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/15/2017 2:14:15 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		What are your daily goals for stockpiling supplies, fuel, oil and resources for Japan in early '42 after you have reach your expansion limits? Last turn, I turned off all construction and got an increase of 6653 supplies globally (per Tracker) with 8556 coming from Japan. I've had trouble with getting even 2k increase in supplies daily. Trying to figure out what I may be doing wrong. Help please!!




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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/15/2017 2:48:57 PM   
Leandros


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Oh, boy - what sort of chart is this..?

Fred

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/15/2017 2:50:03 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		My fuel/ oil goals are simply to keep all tankers/ oilers moving; for the time being this includes the small ones, soon to be replaced by St-C
Even with that, my oil/ fuel is declining in Japan

For supply it is difficult to say; I am certainly not saving other than ~500K in Japan; as sooner than later I would need to send a big convoy to support some theater



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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/15/2017 2:55:29 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Sad reality:

after 100 turns: declines in everything except resources




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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/15/2017 3:01:34 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

Oh, boy - what sort of chart is this..?


Its from Tracker! A Japanese player's best friend to manage their economy.

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/15/2017 3:07:15 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Tracker for Allies, Wrecker for Japs.

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/15/2017 3:15:33 PM   
Leandros


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Joined: 3/5/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

Oh, boy - what sort of chart is this..?


Its from Tracker! A Japanese player's best friend to manage their economy.


OK, thank you - I'm not into that yet.

Fred

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River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/15/2017 3:38:32 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Ok, take a deep breath!

First observation, and a biggie: Your raw supply generation is very low.

I am wondering how much we can get into this subject and not provide opsec leaks?

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/15/2017 4:09:46 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

First observation, and a biggie: Your raw supply generation is very low. I am wondering how much we can get into this subject and not provide opsec leaks?


BTS Lite mod is based on last version of DBB that JWE/Symon did, so refineries do NOT produce any supplies. This is my third re-start with Gen Patton, so no issues with opsec here. He lost the whole Enterprise TF off Tarawa in mid-Dec 41 and just now (early April 42) he lost Yorktown, CVL, and 2 CAs off Norfolk Island to Ms Nell. He has bigger concerns than my economy at the moment. I'm trying to work through my economic issues and I've talked with him about them to some degree, so fire away Jeff!!

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 3/15/2017 4:11:15 PM >

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/15/2017 4:41:43 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Da-Babes balanced this by adding extra, "free" supply generation in Japan. In places like Tokyo or Osaka you will see there is a daily supply generation (small) that compensate for the loss of oil to fuel supply conversion

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/15/2017 6:32:41 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Ok, Michael, I am upto speed on dababes. Explain a few things first:

Why is there such little damage to your HI? Even Light industry is only moderately damaged, and yet you have 233 points of oil damage. Why does the LI total seem really low to me?

2nd -- this is the time period where your early plane research starts to really eat supplies with Frank, George, Jack, Zero, Oscar, Betty, Frances, Judy, Tony, Jill et al repairing quite quickly.

How many supplies a day are fixing r&d factories? Repairing engine factories?

I hope you have turned off replacements for Manchuko Garrison globally. Not building ports, except a select few which should be done by now. Not repairing manpower, or resources or really anything but oil and then only if you can protect it for the next six months.

What does your perimeter look like? Does this explain your low LI total?

Where are your Command HQs? Are you being effected by spoilage?

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 12:02:20 AM   
ny59giants


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quote:

Why is there such little damage to your HI? Even Light industry is only moderately damaged, and yet you have 233 points of oil damage. Why does the LI total seem really low to me?


I took Singapore with almost no damage along with Soerabaja. Both were sieges with significant enemy troops present, so I got off easy there. Palembang has about 85 Oil centers damaged along with the usual at Miri. What number of LI should I have? If anything, I wish right now I had less as between LI and HI my resource consumption is too high, IMO.

quote:

2nd -- this is the time period where your early plane research starts to really eat supplies with Frank, George, Jack, Zero, Oscar, Betty, Frances, Judy, Tony, Jill et al repairing quite quickly.

How many supplies a day are fixing r&d factories? Repairing engine factories?


I have 72 repairing Tojo to go and the usual R&D factories along with 8 engines repairing. I'll have to keep track of R&D repairs to average what is happening daily.

quote:

I hope you have turned off replacements for Manchuko Garrison globally. Not building ports, except a select few which should be done by now. Not repairing manpower, or resources or really anything but oil and then only if you can protect it for the next six months.


Just turned off ALL base construction and saw a 6653 increase in global supplies last turn. Maybe I was over doing it here.

quote:

What does your perimeter look like? Does this explain your low LI total?


Normal expansion with New Caledonia.

quote:

Where are your Command HQs? Are you being effected by spoilage?


Manila, Soerabaja, and Saipan. BTSL has a few more mobile Command HQs. No spoilage where I can see.


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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 2:07:53 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		I don't have any goals except to keep things trending upward as much as possible. I like to stay flexible. Prescribing certain numbers can get one into inflexible territory.

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 2:10:42 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		What does your perimeter look like...how much of China do you have? Given that you are losing 5k resources a day, you can't be at the extent of your Empire especially if lots of it are at Nauru Island.

You should be plus 10-15K in resources a day, maybe more.

Generally speaking repair oil if you can keep it for longer than 90 days.

To answer your question, you can save 5K to 20K a day, depending upon factory (plane, r&D, engine, oil) repairs. Reinforcements, replacements, bombing, etc. all eat up supply. Drawing planes from the pools really eats supply fast, as does rebuilding an infantry division or twenty.

Depending upon the scenario you want to go into 44 with 3-6 million. I think in a scenario 2 game it is possible to go into 45 with 8 million -- but that really requires a deep understanding of supply usage and keeping the Allies at bay. I have seen good players hit 45 with less than 2 million, and if the Empire is intact and still producing supplies that is not too terrible either. But to hit the endgame with 2 million in supply and the HI under air attack makes life really difficult.



A lot of it depends upon where in the third generation plane builds you are as that will eat up 1 million in supply easily.

So your 1.7 million supply can be good or bad, depending upon how much you have already spent enlarging engine, plane and r&d factories.

You need to most likely prioritize fixing the oil centers; try to save on average 200,000 supply per month, and if you hit that goal, try to save more.

Spoilage can be checked in Tracker: resources, sort on spoilage column. I bet you have some, but probably fuel.

Your vehicle pools are very low, your vehicle production is on the low end of acceptable. Come June of 1944 you will struggle to get those great new tanks into your formations. I would suggest you start to save points now by stockpiling motorized support and being very careful which units you allow to get them.







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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 3:18:54 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Have you increased HI significantly?

When I compare your tracker to mine; you have more resource centers at 15,707 (vs 15,554) but somehow you are losing -5K a day, while I am gaining 14K. Meaning the issue is not lack of resource conquest (I am at historical expansion in relation to industry), but that your increased industrial base requires more resources than what historical conquest provided.

Also by comparing your HI at 7,855 vs mine at 7,140; the difference is around 700 which is 700K supply spent in factory expansion, which can explain your reduced supply stockpile

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 3/16/2017 3:19:48 AM >

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 7:01:46 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Below is the email I sent to my opponent (Gen Patton) and John 3rd about my economy prior to starting this thread. As you can see in the comparison, John significantly increased the at start HI and reduced other stockpiles to reflect that expansion. However, he didn't increase resource production so I'm short here. Add in the needed fuel to gather the resources and feed the additional HI. That's why I want to address this and see if my observations are wrong. Am I wrong?




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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 12:10:22 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
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Status: offline 		Your resource production is low...it should be 2000 more give or take; but the real kicker is your supply source (+ Daily Supply) is either 1,000 to 2,000 off in its supply creation. This is the "free" supply generation that offsets the lack of refineries producing supply as a byproduct in the oil refining process. Also there is some that generates for China so that China can put up a stronger fight, but also rewards Japan once you take that base.

I still have to tell you guys I am in shock that your damaged industry is so low. To me this indicates that you have had to repaired it, costing probably a million or more in supply.

Given the juicing BTSL has gotten with respect to HI and LI, I would suggest you also adopt Scen 30 resource profile in addition to their "free" daily supply generation table.







< Message edited by Lowpe -- 3/16/2017 12:14:56 PM >

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 12:52:00 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

"... due to only getting about 2K in supply surplus per day ..."


Ok, this is a supply balance issue foremost. forget about oil, fuel, resources, et al. Let's focus solely on supply.

There are only two sides to the equation: production and use. Tracker gives you production. What is your TOTAL daily supply production from tracker? in Apr 42, it should be something North of 28K/day based upon your starting point of 25K/day.

If it is, then you have a usage issue.

check to be sure you are not accidently repairing factories. You're a good player, so I doubt this, but we've all made that mistake before. Use the Factory screen, sort by the repair column. EVERYTHING should be OFF except those very few that you want repairing. It only takes a couple to screw you up. Ask Joseph.

If nothing found, go to air sorties, how many avg/day?

At this point, I'll wait for answers before any other suggestions. Need the above to know which way to flop here. But it is a zero sum game, just tedious to go through.

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 1:46:30 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Hrm. Seems like a potential oversight in the scenario design, maybe. With that tiny amount of supply surplus per day, PLUS being squeezed on resources due to the additional HI...

I was going to suggest possibly turning off some of that extra HI, but if you're also crunched on supplies that isn't going to do you much good.

In my games, when my war machine is mostly idle, I got ~10-11K surplus supplies daily at peak.

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 2:06:08 PM   
Hotei

 

Posts: 110
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Status: offline 		How much oil and resources do you guys average to bring in to the Empire monthly?

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 3:01:01 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		While bored out of my brain at the hospital yesterday, I spent some time thinking on the issues Michael has raised with a series of emails to me. The economic expansion pushed by Yamamoto from 1939 forward is shown but the crisis factor of resources and oil really jumps forward. OK. How about we do a few things?

Thoughts:
1. Bump up several of the oil facilities in the DEI but have them start damaged.
2. Add several hundred resource centers and do the same thing.
3. Add more LI or turn on several of the refinery locations to produce supply?

Got to go and will add more in a bit...

EDIT:

The additions would need to be in areas that Japan needs to take. Figure it is further inducement to grab economic areas ASAP.


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/16/2017 3:33:18 PM >

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 3:08:20 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

While bored out of my brain at the hospital yesterday, I spent some time thinking on the issues Michael has raised with a series of emails to me. The economic expansion pushed by Yamamoto from 1939 forward is shown but the crisis factor of resources and oil really jumps forward. OK. How about we do a few things?

Thoughts:
1. Bump up several of the oil facilities in the DEI but have them start damaged.
2. Add several hundred resource centers and do the same thing.
3. Add more LI or turn on several of the refinery locations to produce supply?

Got to go and will add more in a bit...



The problem is that those cost 1K supply per point to repair.

It would be far simpler to change Light Industry to produce twice as many supplies, and to drop the amount of Light Industry by some fraction (say 1/4). This would result in a +50% supply production from Light Industry and take away 25% of its resource demand, which could then be used for the HI.

I think in such a scenario, where the point is seemingly to fight with expanded orders of battle without adversely affecting the economy (it is a fantasy what-if after all, go nuts on the what-ifs if you want)... you would need to increase the available fuel for the HI as well. I would buff the starting stocks in Japan proportional to however much the HI was buffed. So if it's +10% HI, then I'd add +10% fuel there. I would consider buffing oil production on the map overall by +10% as well.

Of course, this still won't stop a greater than 10% increase in fuel expenditure due to expanded naval OOBs (whatever the number works out to being) from adversely affecting the stability/longevity of the economy relative to a stock game.

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 3:34:48 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Lok brings up excellent points.

You took away the ability of refineries to generate supply, but then you didn't enact the balance (the daily supply generation).

Not only does this hurt Japan, but also any country with a refinery. China for example.


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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 4:03:11 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Regardless of the long term consequences of lack of resources, it would be interesting to understand how is the supply being spent

~ 25K coming every day... what is it going to? what is draining it?

could it be that the scenario has significantly more LCUs?

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 3/16/2017 4:59:44 PM >

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 4:05:56 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Lok brings up excellent points.

You took away the ability of refineries to generate supply, but then you didn't enact the balance (the daily supply generation).

Not only does this hurt Japan, but also any country with a refinery. China for example.




And if this was done, then 10 oil needs to turn into 10 fuel, not 9 fuel + 1 supply. IMHO.

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 4:36:57 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
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Status: offline 		It would be interesting to bump up the oil production in Japan itself.

And/or add the effect of the shale wax/oil they were experimenting with. Plus all the other alternative fuel productions.




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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 4:53:09 PM   
cardas

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 4/8/2016
Status: offline 		DBB-C has 860 "magic" supply generation on the home islands. In addition there's 120 in Port Arthur, so in total you get 980 supply per day for free in DBB-C. This almost, but not quite, makes up for the lack of supply generation by refineries on the home islands. There's no direct compensation for the supply you'd get from the conquered refineries in DEI though, but that's a conscious design decision I imagine.

This is bonus generation that isn't present in BTS Lite at the moment.

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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 6:06:56 PM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

It would be interesting to bump up the oil production in Japan itself.

And/or add the effect of the shale wax/oil they were experimenting with. Plus all the other alternative fuel productions.





I added a the refinery in Ansaan (Manchuria) to reflect this.


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RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/16/2017 10:23:47 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Below is the email I sent to my opponent (Gen Patton) and John 3rd about my economy prior to starting this thread. As you can see in the comparison, John significantly increased the at start HI and reduced other stockpiles to reflect that expansion. However, he didn't increase resource production so I'm short here. Add in the needed fuel to gather the resources and feed the additional HI. That's why I want to address this and see if my observations are wrong. Am I wrong?





This graphic should probably be stickied some where. Thanks for putting it up.

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Post #: 29
RE: Early war economic goals for Japan - 3/17/2017 3:29:31 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I am moving the BTSL discussion over to the Modding Thread.

Michael has sent a proposal over and I want to hash it out over there.


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