A/c range

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A/c range - 3/13/2017 8:30:59 AM

Chris21wen
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If setting a group to use drop tanks AND reducing the group's range have any affect in the game.

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RE: A/c range - 3/13/2017 10:40:47 AM

obvert
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It's an interesting question since the stats also sow endurance. I wonder about their airborne time and duration of battles. So if they have drop tanks can they stay for instance on LR CAP longer?

I could test but not sure how to see the results, unless there are just always more planes in a combat when they're using drop tanks and that is consistent over many iterations

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RE: A/c range - 3/13/2017 10:50:07 AM

Lowpe
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

It's an interesting question since the stats also sow endurance. I wonder about their airborne time and duration of battles. So if they have drop tanks can they stay for instance on LR CAP longer?

I could test but not sure how to see the results, unless there are just always more planes in a combat when they're using drop tanks and that is consistent over many iterations

I have wondered this in the past, and I know it is in my Tiemanj AAR from some luminaries, most likely Alfred?

The short answer is I recall: there is a normal range and an extended range. Endurance plays no part in how long a plane stays on patrol. There are increased penalties for flying at extended range.

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RE: A/c range - 3/13/2017 2:42:34 PM

zuluhour
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I believe Lowpe is correct

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RE: A/c range - 3/13/2017 3:44:38 PM

BillBrown
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I do not know the answer game wise, but in RL terms, the aircraft would probably release their drop tanks when they engaged in combat.

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RE: A/c range - 3/13/2017 10:17:38 PM

Chris21wen
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The short answer is I recall: there is a normal range and an extended range. Endurance plays no part in how long a plane stays on patrol. There are increased penalties for flying at extended range.

And then there's drop tanks at normal and extended range. My understanding is drop tanks increase the range of an aircraft which also means its endurance was increased. Extended range was achieved by making the a/c lighter, e.g. fewer weapons. And as you said this is not endurance.

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RE: A/c range - 3/14/2017 8:27:27 PM

Alpha77
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I guess Oscars and Zeros with long range will stay longer in combat also on CAP - would be logical right ? I noted some Oscars fought quite good and long recently...so this is also good for people like me who do not use the long range much...

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RE: A/c range - 3/15/2017 7:07:12 PM

Dili
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The short answer is I recall: there is a normal range and an extended range. Endurance plays no part in how long a plane stays on patrol. There are increased penalties for flying at extended range.

And then there's drop tanks at normal and extended range. My understanding is drop tanks increase the range of an aircraft which also means its endurance was increased. Extended range was achieved by making the a/c lighter, e.g. fewer weapons. And as you said this is not endurance.

Don't appear to be, it seems less weapons more fuel.

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RE: A/c range - 3/18/2017 10:17:31 PM

rustysi
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quote:

the aircraft would probably release their drop tanks when they engaged in combat.

Probably? No A/C would absolutely release their drop tanks before they engaged in combat.

In game terms it is my understanding that extended range and/or drop tanks results in a hit in the form of increased fatigue.

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RE: A/c range - 3/20/2017 2:22:30 PM

Alfred
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

If setting a group to use drop tanks AND reducing the group's range have any affect in the game.

Yes.

1. Drop tanks increase supply consumption for the mission and up the supply threshold needed at the base depot.

2. Drop tanks increase the available range of the aircraft model. The more hexes flown, the greater the negative impact on pilot fatigue.

3. The key range setting is whether the unit flies beyond its normal range (that range being with or without drop tanks). Various malus applies when the unit flies beyond it's normal range.

Assume the range without drop tanks is 4 (normal) and 6 (extended). With drop tanks the range becomes 7 (normal) and 9 (extended).

(a) If the unit is equipped with drop tanks and is set to operate up to 3 or 4 hexes, the only additional malus (compared to not having drop tanks) is that listed in 1 above.

(b) If the unit is equipped with drop tanks and is set to operate up to 5 or 6 hexes, it suffers the malus listed in 1 above plus that listed in 2 above. It avoids the malus listed in 3 above.

(c) If the unit is equipped with drop tans and is set to operate out to 8 or 9 hexes, all three malus apply.

Alfred

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RE: A/c range - 3/20/2017 7:01:42 PM

Ol_Dog
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Thank you for the clear summary

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RE: A/c range - 3/21/2017 5:57:04 AM

Chris21wen
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

If setting a group to use drop tanks AND reducing the group's range have any affect in the game.

Yes.

1. Drop tanks increase supply consumption for the mission and up the supply threshold needed at the base depot.

2. Drop tanks increase the available range of the aircraft model. The more hexes flown, the greater the negative impact on pilot fatigue.

3. The key range setting is whether the unit flies beyond its normal range (that range being with or without drop tanks). Various malus applies when the unit flies beyond it's normal range.

Assume the range without drop tanks is 4 (normal) and 6 (extended). With drop tanks the range becomes 7 (normal) and 9 (extended).

(a) If the unit is equipped with drop tanks and is set to operate up to 3 or 4 hexes, the only additional malus (compared to not having drop tanks) is that listed in 1 above.

(b) If the unit is equipped with drop tanks and is set to operate up to 5 or 6 hexes, it suffers the malus listed in 1 above plus that listed in 2 above. It avoids the malus listed in 3 above.

(c) If the unit is equipped with drop tans and is set to operate out to 8 or 9 hexes, all three malus apply.

Alfred

Alfred, so those are the penalties but are there any advantages to using drop tanks other than longer range. I.e. Short range time in the air.

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RE: A/c range - 3/22/2017 2:12:55 PM

Alfred
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Chris H,

Additional range is really the benefit of using drop tanks. That has both good and bad aspects. The good is that you increase the "normal" range but even the value of that has to be weighed up against the malus (increased pilot fatigue and airframe wear and teat which can combine to up the operational losses) of additional range.

Back on 5 February 2009, when AE was still in development and the code was not yet set in concrete, theElf pointed out the three purposes of using drop tanks:

1. Extend the range of shorter legged fighters to enable them to escort longer legged bombers.
2. Extend the loiter time for CAP.
3. Provide extended ferry range.

The first is well known to players. The third probably is not paid much attention by players but ferrying drop tank equipped aircraft across the Pacific can be very valuable.

The "problem" lies with the increased loiter time. This is something which is very much controlled under the hood and contrary to what most players will probably think, within the game code context, having extra loiter time is not always good for the player. In game terms, loiter time is dependent on the distance from the home base the air action is occurring and the cruise speed of the aircraft model which is then used to determine how much of the aircraft model's range translates to loiter time.

Alfred

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RE: A/c range - 3/23/2017 7:33:51 AM

Chris21wen
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Chris H,

Additional range is really the benefit of using drop tanks. That has both good and bad aspects. The good is that you increase the "normal" range but even the value of that has to be weighed up against the malus (increased pilot fatigue and airframe wear and teat which can combine to up the operational losses) of additional range.

Back on 5 February 2009, when AE was still in development and the code was not yet set in concrete, theElf pointed out the three purposes of using drop tanks:

1. Extend the range of shorter legged fighters to enable them to escort longer legged bombers.
2. Extend the loiter time for CAP.
3. Provide extended ferry range.

The first is well known to players. The third probably is not paid much attention by players but ferrying drop tank equipped aircraft across the Pacific can be very valuable.

The "problem" lies with the increased loiter time. This is something which is very much controlled under the hood and contrary to what most players will probably think, within the game code context, having extra loiter time is not always good for the player. In game terms, loiter time is dependent on the distance from the home base the air action is occurring and the cruise speed of the aircraft model which is then used to determine how much of the aircraft model's range translates to loiter time.

Alfred

Thanks a lot Alfred, much appreciated.

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RE: A/c range - 3/23/2017 1:23:59 PM

PaxMondo
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To expand upon Alfred's notes from Ian, some more RL operational data that Ian would know and potentially use in the model.

The US typically spec'd fighter range as distance + 30 mins combat where the 30 mins of combat would include the climb out to 'normal' operating altitude. Other air forces used other, and sometimes not consistent metrics. However, given other examples, I suspect the devs would have treated all of the ranges this way (another easter egg for the IJ, one of many). As others have noted, dropping tanks before entering combat is SOP. Once tanks were dropped , if they had reached the target as planned, the pilot had been breifed on fuel required to RTB. In this era, it was up to the pilot to make a mental calculations as to the fuel required to RTB to account for deviations from the plan. There were absolutely rules of thumb to use, but some people are better at math than others, some would forget to do so when arriving at target, some would forget to monitor while engaged; all of this leading up to higher than normal Ops losses.

If you do the geometry and the math, here's an interesting outcome. Due to the size of the drop tanks (many times 50% => 80% of on board fuel) once the fuel tanks drop, because of the high fuel use in combat mode, the amount of time over target in combat mode doesn't change that much even if the target is within normal range. At emergency combat boost, you can burn 60 minutes of fuel in 3 minutes ... (yeah, about 20x your most fuel efficient engine setting in a multi-speed, multi-stage, twin charger like late model fighters P47/P51) ...

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RE: A/c range - 3/23/2017 1:39:18 PM

Lowpe
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I wonder if the SR value figures in the "loiter time."

I would swear from personal observation most Allied planes have great loiter times!

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RE: A/c range - 3/24/2017 2:05:38 AM

PaxMondo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I wonder if the SR value figures in the "loiter time."

I would swear from personal observation most Allied planes have great loiter times!

I agree, but not sure if it is SR or DUR ... the higher DUR allows the allied fighters to accumulate more 'damage' before RTB ..., IJ fighters are generally really fragile.

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RE: A/c range - 3/24/2017 3:16:55 AM

Alfred
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I wonder if the SR value figures in the "loiter time."

I would swear from personal observation most Allied planes have great loiter times!

I agree, but not sure if it is SR or DUR ... the higher DUR allows the allied fighters to accumulate more 'damage' before RTB ..., IJ fighters are generally really fragile.

Neither.

1. The SR value is factored into the maintenance algorithms. See my post in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3371056&mpage=1&key=maintenance�

It plays no part in combat.

2. The DUR value is taken into account in the combat algorithms, specifically in determining whether the damage from the "hit" is sufficient to achieve an outright "kill". Technically it is not taken into account in determining loiter time.

3. In AE terms, loiter time is an abstraction represented by how many "combat rounds" the aircraft may be able to participate in. There are other factors which are also taken into account in determining participation so the mere fact of having drop tanks which may increase the loiter time (see my earlier post in this thread) does not guarantee
the aircraft will participate in more combat rounds than another aircraft without drop tanks involved in the same combat.

It is important to understand that AVGAS (which in AE is abstracted into supply), and thus by extension drop tanks, is not tracked by the code. An aircraft which flies only 0 hexes uses the same amount as supply as it would if it flew 4 or 7 hexes instead. An aircraft which flies but does not participate in a "combat round" uses the same amount of supply as it would have had, had it participated in one or several "combat rounds".

Alfred

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RE: A/c range - 3/24/2017 3:59:38 AM

PaxMondo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

An aircraft which flies only 0 hexes uses the same amount as supply as it would if it flew 4 or 7 hexes instead. An aircraft which flies but does not participate in a "combat round" uses the same amount of supply as it would have had, had it participated in one or several "combat rounds".

Alfred

This I had discovered the hard way ... you can really burn through a lot of supply on short bombing runs ... The bomber groups tend to stay in tact, fly more missions with more aircraft and voom! there goes your supply ...

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