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What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular

 
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What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 3/22/2017 11:18:23 AM   
GBoggon


Posts: 32
Joined: 12/29/2014
Status: offline 		What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular. It's cheep and it can hit a target at night. Historically it contributed as much to the war as any other soviet plane. It was easy to fly and its STOL capabilities made it perfect for partisan support.So I was disappointed to see what a bad press it has in the forums. I find in the game so far that it is very good at night bombing at least.
Post #: 1
RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 3/22/2017 1:15:52 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		I agree. It takes so few armament points you can throw them out and use them up like confetti.

But, at least I think, the real issue is human war gamers effort to reward. The AI assisted bombing is never as good as manual targetting. When you are the Axis commander with the one uber weapon fine. But micomanaging lots of U2 bombing is not everyones idea of fun. A lot of dull repitition is needed to get the most out of U2s. If that is not for you, the U2 is not good.

(in reply to GBoggon)
Post #: 2
RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 3/22/2017 6:39:22 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gordon Boggon

What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular. It's cheep and it can hit a target at night. Historically it contributed as much to the war as any other soviet plane. It was easy to fly and its STOL capabilities made it perfect for partisan support.So I was disappointed to see what a bad press it has in the forums. I find in the game so far that it is very good at night bombing at least.


Night bombing was reduced in a patch a bit ago. Maybe they upped the dmg again in a recent patch (havent been reading the current patches) but basically made them worthless(to me at least). I personally don't waste my time with them & rail the factories into Nazi's open arms. If you dig hard enough you should be able to find a few old posts about them and can read what Dinglr wrote on them in his AAR.

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RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 3/22/2017 10:13:55 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Dinglir demontrated in its AAR that with extreme micromanagement of air force (bombing low activity part of the front all the time, day when possible, else night) it was possible to add 2000/3000 each turn to axis casualties, which is a +10% increase in common axis casualties each turn and could provide quite a nasty effect for germany if it occured during 100 hundred of more turns.

But :
- You have to commit a lot to extreme micromanagement, it is not really fun.
- It is not sûre the U-2 is the perfect plane for this, you can probably do the same with others planes.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 3/22/2017 10:14:21 PM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 4
RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 3/23/2017 4:31:49 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		I use the U-2 on the front line where the enemy has no air cover (Karelia) and bomb them to bits. When their experience gets up to a reasonable level I swap them over to a modern airframe, that way not wasting modern airframes on 'training'.

I do micro manage the soviet air force and on a couple of occasions I have got 'killed' over 2000 but most of the time it is between 1,000 and 2,000. It is the only way to hit back in 1941 when the weather is not blizzard.

(I thought I would be smart and bomb the German units in Finland only to suspect that the game treats them as Finns in terms of replacements).


(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 5
RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 4/1/2017 11:56:08 AM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Historically, the U-2VS were very successfull.

They are the only type of biplane to have ever been credited with a kill of a jet fighter in a dog fight. In Korea, an American Sabre fighter trying to fly slow enough to engage a U-2VS stalled and crashed.

In this game, I believe they have a number of great assets:

1) They are extremely cheap (8 U-2VS cost less than one IL-2, meaning they pack a lot more punch for the same price)
2) They are Tactical Bombers (ie they get a "to hit" bonus)
3) They use a lot less fuel and ammo on a given sortie compared to the IL-2 (actually, less than one tenth of the fuel).
4) They operate at night meaning they are less vulnerable to the Luftwaffe.

I believe they require a different doctrine to use properly compared with the IL-2. While the IL-2 should be used to bomb the German Panzers, the U-2VS should be used to bomb infantry in low level fortifications, mainly. The airfields with U-2VS should be placed VERY close to the front (and on a railway). That way they can often do more than 10 attacks in a turn causing heavy casualties on the Germans. I think their main effect over a prolonged time are that they stress the German production as they cause a lot of gun losses.

However, they do require A LOT of micro management to use properly.

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RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 4/1/2017 10:17:59 PM   
GPT55

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 2/13/2011
Status: offline 		I have also found that U-2VS to be a useful. Besides the points mentioned by Dinglir and others, I have found that they can achieve and maintain very high morale, which makes them considerably more effective. I'm guessing that many players try them out briefly, don't get very good results, so give up on them. You have to stay with them until they get their morale and experience up. However, I do also agree that it can be tedious to do all those bombing attacks. But to leave thousands of U-2VS rotting in the pool seems lazy and incompetent.

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 7
RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 4/1/2017 10:44:04 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		I'am not sûre the argument of "cheap" is relevant. The soviet union have a huge plane production.

But to help the management of the soviet air force, it is interesting to have a plane dedicated to night and a plane dedicated to day. It is easier to manage when settings the air force options in the tab summary.

One point : I wonder how the level bombers performed in night harassment ? Using level bombers for night raid while tactical bombers strike in day could be an easy division of work.




< Message edited by Stelteck -- 4/1/2017 10:45:00 PM >

(in reply to GPT55)
Post #: 8
RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 4/3/2017 9:44:07 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline 		The answer to the original question is that, if G puts his fighters on 'both' ie day and night missions, the U2s are just free wins which don't achieve anything beyond improving the morale and experience of the LW fighter arm. Since recent patch(es) they don't really achieve anything even if they fly unmolested. A waste of trucks to use them.

Initially in our game, BrianG's U2s were effective but now they just make my stats look better so it's not a question of them becoming useful when they become experienced.

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 4/3/2017 9:47:54 AM >

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(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 9
RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 4/3/2017 11:26:58 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Free win indeed (but it was a airfield bombing so unusual hard defense compared to front line bombing)



Still killing 4 fighters is a good result

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 4/3/2017 11:27:55 AM >

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 10
RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 4/3/2017 10:07:35 PM   
Hermann

 

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		Dinglr isn't a veteran player - there's a fine balance in the game - employing his U2 strategy you need to assume a few things: first and foremost manpower. Dinglr is a master at analyzing manpower. Building air assets requires a long term outlay of command points. roughly 20% of available command points for 2 years to build up the airforce to the degree needed for it to really affect play. that means neglecting unit conversions in 1942. Theres a certain strategic situation that requires that effort - mainly trench warfare or stalemate. Sacrificing initiative to micromanage is a very specific play style. Im stunned that pelton let himself get boxed in like that. As the Russian im extremely aggressive air and land - I love bombing but prefer to use my tac air IL2s in that role and attack during daylight. I employ fight sweeps to draw out enemy fighters by setting all my bombers on night and launching ground attacks on units near enemy airbases. then I go after the airbases with all my air once his fighters are worn out. Early on I hit every unit in sight with air to build up experience panzerball players in my eyes lose the protection of the stacked hq rules and I hit their hqs as hard as I can. that's offense. investing in a large u2 force assumes youre going to play a defensive role with your ground forces. Im playing Dinglr myself at the moment. Kind of hope he tries the U2 trick on me. Pelton concentrates his assets I tend to scatter mine and I attack more frequently and from unpredictable directions - don't mind forcing him to constantly move his airbases. I like to keep my airbases up front as well and switch planes in and out of reserve - its always funny to see a u2 flight run into 5 Jagdgeschwaders that pop up out of nowhere. either get decimated or sit the turn out wackamole...
The title of the u2 section should read effective use of night tactical airpower in static defense. and its a huge tactic for that specific situation. give me my sturmoviks though im not going to sit around.

(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 11
RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 4/3/2017 10:13:20 PM   
Hermann

 

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		remember u2s are short range - employing them in large numbers only says one thing to me - Exxon-Mobil. ZZZZI will launch self sustaining spoiler attacks all day on that.

(in reply to Hermann)
Post #: 12
RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 4/4/2017 1:24:37 PM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		A lot to consider in the following, but I will do my best.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann
Dinglr isn't a veteran player


I most certainly agree with this one, and I never claimed otherwise. I simply have some opinions based on my experience with the game so far.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann
Building air assets requires a long term outlay of command points. roughly 20% of available command points for 2 years to build up the airforce to the degree needed for it to really affect play.


I assume the "command points" above refer to Admin points. If so, building the maximum of eight Air Groups for two years would give you a total of 832 new Air Groups, each containing 20 aircraft for a total of 16640 Aircraft. Add to this the aircraft of the Air Groups you have at game start, and you would be left with an Airforce some 25.000 strong (at least). It would also cost you a total of approximately 1000 Admin Points. Against Pelton I think I had about five or six airfields with 9 U-2VS Air Groups each. At that point, operational and flak losses began to match the production numbers, so I stopped building new Air Groups of U-2VS. In total, my expenditure on U-2VS was about 60 Admin Points over the fall and winter of 1941. From then on, and parallel to that, I invested mainly in fighter bomber Air Wings and IL-2's. I am pretty sure though, that I never intended to hit a total number of 25.000 active Aircraft.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann
Investing in a large u2 force assumes youre going to play a defensive role with your ground forces.


I guess you must judge for yourself, if you feel my play against Pelton was defensive, and if a more offensive stance on my part would have helped to Soviets. Suffice to say that I do not think that neither the Soviets nor the Germans can be offensive on all parts of the front for the first few years of the war. There will always be areas, where little happens and U-2VS bombings are viable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann
Im playing Dinglr myself at the moment. Kind of hope he tries the U2 trick on me.


Do not worry my friend. I will certainly try

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann
its always funny to see a u2 flight run into 5 Jagdgeschwaders that pop up out of nowhere.


I often found that the German fighters flying at night, especially in poor weather, tended to take quite a lot of operational losses. As the Soviet fighter production outpace the German one quite considerably, the Germans at least need to make sure that they can keep their total fleet of fighters at a decent amount. Losing fighters to U-2VS, even at a high exchange rate, might not be a good tactic for the Germans. Besides, who is to say that those five JagdGeschwaders might not be needed elsewhere?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann
give me my sturmoviks though im not going to sit around.


Personally, I prefer having both IL-2's and U-2VS over having only IL-2's. I do not accept that it is a matter of either/or.

But as has been said before, and undoubtedly will be said again: "Dinglir is not a veteran player". I have no doubt that I will learn a lot as I dive deeper into this game.



_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Hermann)
Post #: 13
RE: What is it makes the U-2 so unpopular - 4/7/2017 3:31:40 PM   
wga8888


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/29/2010
From: Sachse, Texas USA
Status: offline 		I started watching the Russian tv series Night Swallows on youtube. It is about the Night Witches, in the first episode they are flying a two seater. Naturally all the women pilots are quite attractive.

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(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 14
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