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Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers.

 
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Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/19/2017 9:47:17 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I have seen past posts here complaining about the use of these aircraft and attack bombers from higher levels because they had no bombsights. I knew that attack bombers did level bomb from up high but did not know that single engine naval bombers also attacked in formation from up high. Then I discovered this photo last night while surfing around. Helldivers and Avengers dropping thier loads in formation. Pretty cool image.





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< Message edited by crsutton -- 3/19/2017 9:48:22 PM >

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/19/2017 9:54:08 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline 		Maybe they were guided by a pathfinder, with instruments and training for high altitude bombing...

in any case, the picture tases of "propaganda" or staged, rather than genuine hot action...

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/19/2017 9:56:37 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Tiemanj pummeled me with these guys and SBDs late war. I felt that it was absolutely proper that he did so, and in fact, I felt a little neglected that strafing is so nerfed that is was a very rare day when I got strafed.

I also wish somehow Napalm was modeled into the late game too.


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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/19/2017 10:19:22 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		Douglas' and Avengers did have/could have Norden bombsights. And a telescopic sight I believe. Not sure about Helldivers.



"Indeed these aircraft (the US versions) had Norden Bombsights fitted in them, just below where the power operated turret was located in the "tunnel." Barret Tillman's book about the Avenger mentions this and has a picture of part of the Norden bombsight fitted in the Avenger."



Only one plane need to carry the bombsight, as the other planes would be dropping on his mark.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 3/19/2017 10:27:10 PM >

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/19/2017 10:24:53 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Maybe they were guided by a pathfinder, with instruments and training for high altitude bombing...

in any case, the picture tases of "propaganda" or staged, rather than genuine hot action...


No, it is the real deal. Said that they were over Hokkaido. I am sure that they were guided by a pathfinder. Skilled bombardiers were hard to come by and even a lot of medium bombing raids depended on one plane and just dropped when the lead plane dropped. Very understandable as dive bombing was quickly becoming too dangerous, especially over well defended land areas.



< Message edited by crsutton -- 3/19/2017 10:26:57 PM >

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/19/2017 10:28:19 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		"Clash of the Titans" mentions Douglas' having Nordens. This was new info and I have been wanting to find out more on it.




The Norden Bombsight was originally developed by the US Navy prior to WW2.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 3/19/2017 10:49:21 PM >

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/19/2017 11:19:36 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Status: offline 		2 intact Devastators have been found in Jaluiit lagoon in Marshall Islands. Nordon bombsight was thrown over before crashlanding. February 1, 1942

Intact wreckage of US Navy Douglas TBD-1 Devastator, aka “the shallow airplane,” presumed to be U.S. Navy Bureau Number 0298.
• GPS coordinates 05° 58.657′ North; 169° 27.101′ East

https://tighar.org/Projects/Devastator/surveyamerican.htm

"Mr. Charles Fosha, the bombardier on Bu. No. 0298, has said that the then-Top Secret bombsight was thrown over the side while the aircraft was still in flight. Mr. Dalzell, who was sitting behind Fosha, independently corroborates that recollection and adds that the bombsight was actually passed aft to him so that he could throw it clear of the wing."

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 3/19/2017 11:21:32 PM >

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/20/2017 3:13:53 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		The Grumman TBF Avenger could mount the Norden, like the preceding Douglas TBD Devastator,[31] but combat use was disappointing and eventually described as "hopeless" during the Guadalcanal Campaign. In spite of giving up on the device in 1942, bureaucratic inertia meant they were supplied as standard equipment until 1944

So, in 1945 at least one Avenger in a squadron might still have a Norden bomb site and act as the lead bomber. I never knew that any single engine aircraft carried them. Always learning with this game..

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/20/2017 3:05:35 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Just found some pics including this one of the lower area of the Avenger. This focuses on the rear ventral stinger hanging out the back end, and shows how much room was back there. I don't see a Norden, or anything else for aiming the payload. I'm assuming it would have been at this end somewhere.







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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/20/2017 3:22:47 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Like the Devastator, it may be within the Bombay, facing forward.


"The doors with lightening holes on the inner panel were opened when the Norden bomb sight was to be used for level bombing. According to Steve Ginter's excellent monograph, the doors were changed to have solid inner skins to reduce buffeting and there were only two hinges, not three as shown above. However, WymanV notes that the bombardier sighting doors were only changed on BuNos 1505-1519."

Big pics:




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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/20/2017 3:24:29 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Status: offline 		....




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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/20/2017 6:37:32 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


Like the Devastator, it may be within the Bombay, facing forward.


"The doors with lightening holes on the inner panel were opened when the Norden bomb sight was to be used for level bombing. According to Steve Ginter's excellent monograph, the doors were changed to have solid inner skins to reduce buffeting and there were only two hinges, not three as shown above. However, WymanV notes that the bombardier sighting doors were only changed on BuNos 1505-1519."

Big pics:





Got to tell ya that that is a great photo you found. It just answered about a dozen questions that I had. Thanks.

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/20/2017 6:39:01 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Why would they stop issuing bombing sights?
isn't poor better than nothing?
was it that heavy?

an unrelated question: does anybody has a picture of the Avenger's "passenger" version's interior?
this is from after WW2, apparently some were converted to 7-passenger carrier onboard delivery... just can't picture how uncomfortable this had to be

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 3/20/2017 6:42:23 PM >

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/20/2017 7:01:38 PM   
DRF99


Posts: 90
Joined: 9/3/2009
Status: offline 		Here's a small image. Not the interior but shows how they crammed people in. (Let's see if it works.)






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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/20/2017 7:37:44 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
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From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Thanks!!
probably still more legroom than today's "cattle class" economy seats

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/27/2017 7:38:00 AM   
PizzaMan


Posts: 200
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		Is it possible that those Helldivers and Avengers failed to find their target, and are in the process of dropping their ordnance before landing on their carrier?

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/27/2017 5:28:46 PM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 3/16/2012
From: Not all there
Status: offline 		I'd say those bombs are heading toward an enemy target.

The original photo is in the national archives with the tag "USS Essex based TBMs and SB2Cs dropping bombs on Hakodate, Japan" with a date of July '45. I don't want to question the reputation of the national archives but the USS Essex never attacked Hakodate in July, '45. Other carriers though did strike airfields and industrial targets at Hakodate during July and did use level bombing on occassion during those attacks, so the photo could be of one of the strikes from these other carriers.

Personally though, I suspect the photo actually is of USS Essex aircraft in July '45 but the target was actually Aomori, across the narrow Tsugaru Straits from Hakodate. On July 15th, an Essex strike found the port of Aomori completely covered by low cloud and the strike commander decided to make a level approach 1000ft above the cloud tops and use radar to determine the drop point over the Aomori docks. When that point was reached, he gave a signal and all 22 TBMs, 14 SB2Cs, 8 F6Fs and 8 F4Us of the strike dropped their bombs on cue, sending over 130 500lb GP bombs through the clouds to the target area below. There was also no flak encountered, likely due to the strike being hidden from the ground by the low cloud cover.

In the photo you can see the clouds just below, an absence of flak and the bombs dropping from the unusual level bombing mix of TBMs and SB2Cs. That's enough for me to have a guess anyway.




< Message edited by Buckrock -- 9/11/2017 1:54:42 PM >

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/27/2017 8:56:35 PM   
bomccarthy


Posts: 414
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From: L.A.
Status: offline 		Quick research of the geometric tail codes on the web indicates that the planes are from the Essex in 1945. Buckrock's second scenario (target Aomori) seems most likely, unless evidence of other level bombing runs by CV-9 aircraft in 1945 can be found.

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/28/2017 2:29:15 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

Quick research of the geometric tail codes on the web indicates that the planes are from the Essex in 1945. Buckrock's second scenario (target Aomori) seems most likely, unless evidence of other level bombing runs by CV-9 aircraft in 1945 can be found.


Thanks for the research guys.

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/28/2017 4:31:55 AM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 578
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

Quick research of the geometric tail codes on the web indicates that the planes are from the Essex in 1945. Buckrock's second scenario (target Aomori) seems most likely, unless evidence of other level bombing runs by CV-9 aircraft in 1945 can be found.


There was one further level bombing attack by Essex's airgroup during their July-Aug '45 operations against Japan.

On Aug 10, 11 TBMs of VT-83 took part in a strike by the CVG-9 airgroup against the industrial area of Hachinohe, Northern Honshu. VT-83 made two drops from 8,500ft, one against an industrial (alcohol) plant and a second against an oil storage plant. The squadron flew as one formation, 3 dropping on the first target then 8 later dropping on the second. The squadron leader had a Norden Mk 15 (Mod 7) bomb sight fitted to his aircraft and acted as the "drop guide", splitting his bomb load between the two targets.

This would not have been the mission in the photo as the weather was described as completely clear with unlimited visibility. There were also no SB2Cs on this mission, only F6Fs and F4Us (which used diving attacks to deliver their bomb and rocket payloads).

The squadron noted the mission of Aug 10 was their first (and only) use of the Norden bomb sight to deliver a level bombing attack during their deployment. VT-83 had operated from the Essex since 10 March 1945. Prior to their operations against the Japanese Home Islands (Jul-Aug '45), the only other combat the squadron had been involved in was a strike against Kure in March and then the Okinawa campaign (including the attack on the Yamato). There is no mention I've seen of level bombing being used as a tactic by the squadron other than the two described earlier.

< Message edited by Buckrock -- 3/28/2017 7:26:37 AM >

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/28/2017 7:29:13 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		I recently read a book on the FAA's use of the Avenger. When loaded with bombs they used low level glide bombing. From 1945 they rarely used torps, almost entirely glide bombing especially in support of the USN in the later stages of the war. The three major operations (minor compared to the USN) of the Br Pacific Fleet was against Palembang (same time a Leyte gulf), Sakishima Is and Formosa airfields during the Okinawa inv and afterwards against various points off the main Japanese Is, never using torps once. By all accounts it was a much loved plane.

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RE: Helldivers and Avengers as level bombers. - 3/28/2017 9:17:16 AM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 578
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Status: offline 		Yamato's one way trip aside, in 1945 there were few major Japanese naval targets to be attacked outside protected anchorages or ports. The USN found rockets and bombs were now the most suitable weapon for use against these targets as well as dealing with the merchants and smaller warships that might still to be encountered in open waters.

Understandably during this period, the USN TBMs were being used less and less for anti-shipping work, the bulk of their missions now being made up of glide bomb attacks against land targets.

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