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R&D question - 4/12/2017 6:14:42 AM

harrer

Posts: 753
Joined: 12/1/2004
Status: offline

Hi all,

If i get it right, the R&D has two possibilities to advance, each limited to 30/month but cumulative :

1. the R&D of the aircraft itself, with a factory full repared, and max 1 point / day (30 / month), so having a big lab isn't worth it because more than 30 capacity it's useless and will take a lot of time before it's fully repared and producing R&D points.

2. If you have more than 500 engines in stock, you got 1 research point / day.
Ok ... but for all planes to come using this engine ?
For example, if i have more than 500 Nakajima HA 35, will I win 1 research point/day for all following aircrafts ? :

Also, is it possible to advance the availability date of an engine?
( For example, A7M2 sam in september 1945, engine Ha 43 in september 1945, not worth it to research the plane if I cannot produce the engine)

Thanks in advance, couldn't find the answers in the forum.

Post #: 1

RE: R&D question - 4/12/2017 6:50:23 AM

InfiniteMonkey

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
If i get it right, the R&D has two possibilities to advance, each limited to 30/month but cumulative :

1. the R&D of the aircraft itself, with a factory full repaired, and max 1 point / day (30 / month), so having a big lab isn't worth it because more than 30 capacity it's useless and will take a lot of time before it's fully repared and producing R&D points.

Mostly true. Repair rate scales with factory size as long as size < days til aircraft arrives, so it is not so much the repair rate. Theoretically, a size 60 factory and a size 30 factory have the same repair date for research on the same aircraft. Otherwise, you are correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
2. If you have more than 500 engines in stock, you got 1 research point / day.
Ok ... but for all planes to come using this engine ?
For example, if i have more than 500 Nakajima HA 35, will I win 1 research point/day for all following aircrafts ? :

Yes, but keep in mind that the extra point of research costs you an engine. If you are not producing engines at the rate that you are producing both aircraft and those extra research points, you will dip below 500 and stop getting the research bonus. This happens for each research factory, so you could get the bonus for only some factories in a turn. The game engine checks EACH TIME it checks for production of a point to see if the engine pool is > 500 and deducts engine(s) from the pool if the pool is > 500.

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
Also, is it possible to advance the availability date of an engine?
( For example, A7M2 sam in september 1945, engine Ha 43 in september 1945, not worth it to research the plane if I cannot produce the engine)

Yes. Similar to aircraft, but engine factories repair 1/day as long as supply is available at the base. There is not a random chance of repair with engines.

(in reply to harrer)

Post #: 2

RE: R&D question - 4/12/2017 7:09:05 AM

harrer

Posts: 753
Joined: 12/1/2004
Status: offline

Hi InfiniteMonkey, thanks for your answers :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
If i get it right, the R&D has two possibilities to advance, each limited to 30/month but cumulative :

1. the R&D of the aircraft itself, with a factory full repaired, and max 1 point / day (30 / month), so having a big lab isn't worth it because more than 30 capacity it's useless and will take a lot of time before it's fully repared and producing R&D points.

Mostly true. Repair rate scales with factory size as long as size < days til aircraft arrives, so it is not so much the repair rate. Theoretically, a size 60 factory and a size 30 factory have the same repair date for research on the same aircraft. Otherwise, you are correct.

My point was more that a R&D lab with a size of 60 will take more time to repair than a R&D lab with a size of 30, so the 30 will start produce R&D points faster :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
2. If you have more than 500 engines in stock, you got 1 research point / day.
Ok ... but for all planes to come using this engine ?
For example, if i have more than 500 Nakajima HA 35, will I win 1 research point/day for all following aircrafts ? :

Yes, but keep in mind that the extra point of research costs you an engine. If you are not producing engines at the rate that you are producing both aircraft and those extra research points, you will dip below 500 and stop getting the research bonus. This happens for each research factory, so you could get the bonus for only some factories in a turn. The game engine checks EACH TIME it checks for production of a point to see if the engine pool is > 500 and deducts engine(s) from the pool if the pool is > 500.

So ... the goal is to produce and spare all the engines we can, got it ^^

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
Also, is it possible to advance the availability date of an engine?
( For example, A7M2 sam in september 1945, engine Ha 43 in september 1945, not worth it to research the plane if I cannot produce the engine)

Yes. Similar to aircraft, but engine factories repair 1/day as long as supply is available at the base. There is not a random chance of repair with engines.

So scen 1 we start with an engine factory : Aichi Ha 60 125 x (0) avail 42/10.
From the beginning, it will give me a monthly bonus of 30 (125/month limited to 30/month) so let say it will arrive nearly 3 months earlier ?

< Message edited by harrer -- 4/12/2017 7:13:33 AM >

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 3

RE: R&D question - 4/12/2017 8:05:16 AM

GetAssista

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
My point was more that a R&D lab with a size of 60 will take more time to repair than a R&D lab with a size of 30, so the 30 will start produce R&D points faster :)

No, factories repair at the same rate in relative terms. In your case 30 and 60 factories will start R&D at the same time on average.

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
So ... the goal is to produce and spare all the engines we can, got it ^^

Remember that some of the engines you will not need later in the game, and they still cost HI to produce, and supply to build factories. E.g. it is common mistake for JFBs to overproduce Na-35 for early-mid Zeros end end up with huuuge useless stock by the end of the game. Some of the other engines you don't need at all, like everything w/o numbers in the name, except Amakaze.

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 4/12/2017 8:06:12 AM >

(in reply to harrer)

Post #: 4

RE: R&D question - 4/12/2017 8:10:24 AM

InfiniteMonkey

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
My point was more that a R&D lab with a size of 60 will take more time to repair than a R&D lab with a size of 30, so

Your point is wrong. The rate of repair of a research factory is based upon a random number compared to a probability. The probability that a factory will repair a point on a given day is number of devices divided by days until aircraft arrival date. Suppose I create two factories today. One is Size 300, one is size 30. Both of them are for an aircraft that will arrive in 1200 days. This turn, my chance to repair the size 300 factory is 300 in 1200, or 1 in 4. This same turn, my probability to repair the size 30 factory will be 1 in 40. Mathematically, the time to fully repair a fully damaged research factory is 61-63% of the time to arrival. The EXPECTED repair date for both the size 300 factory and the size 30 is the same. As long as size of factory < (days to arrival/.63), this holds true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
So scen 1 we start with an engine factory : Aichi Ha 60 125 x (0) avail 42/10.
From the beginning, it will give me a monthly bonus of 30 (125/month limited to 30/month) so let say it will arrive nearly 3 months earlier ?

I've done less testing on engines.... so I'm less sure of this:

You will get roughly 2.16 research points per day. (1 every day for the 40 and 80 size factories, approximately 1 every 6 days for the size 5 factory). This allows for acceleration approximately every 47 days (100/2.16 = 46.2962963)

Between 12/7/1941 and 10/1/1942, there are 298 days (turns). On approximately

1/23/1942 new arrival date 9/1/1942
3/11/1942 new arrival date 8/1/1942
4/27/1942 new arrival date 7/1/1942
6/13/1942 new arrival date 6/1/1942

(in reply to harrer)

Post #: 5

RE: R&D question - 4/12/2017 12:42:17 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

I would just add a caution about using the engine bonus ... it is very powerful, but also dangerous to your economy. You only want to do it for engine model(s)that you know you will need that ultimate capacity.

EX: Ha-45. Building this to 600 will generate 20 engines every day, which will really fuel your RnD for several good late war planes (George, Frank, Grace amoung others), so this can be a good candidate because you may have a build plan to build at least 480xFrank and 120xGrace in your final builds, so 600xHa-45 is going to get used.

Just saying, that you don't want to just start building engine factories indiscriminately. You'll end up with a lot of over built factories and short on supply when you need it ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 6

RE: R&D question - 4/12/2017 2:45:30 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer

So ... the goal is to produce and spare all the engines we can, got it ^^

With some minor exceptions, yes.... since engine R&D happens immediately (engine factories always repair 1 point per day, it is not a die roll) you can build up the stockpile quite quickly. I had over 1500 Turbojet and over 1600 Ha-43 at one point in my game. I massively overbuilt the Ha-43 for sure... I overestimated how much I would be using that engine, and underestimated others. Decisions made in 1942 when I didn't have any late game contextual experience (e.g., June 1944 "IJNAF fighter apocalypse" where about 20 units withdraw and don't come back).

(in reply to harrer)

Post #: 7

RE: R&D question - 4/12/2017 3:38:31 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
My point was more that a R&D lab with a size of 60 will take more time to repair than a R&D lab with a size of 30, so

Your point is wrong. The rate of repair of a research factory is based upon a random number compared to a probability. The probability that a factory will repair a point on a given day is number of devices divided by days until aircraft arrival date. Suppose I create two factories today. One is Size 300, one is size 30. Both of them are for an aircraft that will arrive in 1200 days. This turn, my chance to repair the size 300 factory is 300 in 1200, or 1 in 4. This same turn, my probability to repair the size 30 factory will be 1 in 40. Mathematically, the time to fully repair a fully damaged research factory is 61-63% of the time to arrival. The EXPECTED repair date for both the size 300 factory and the size 30 is the same. As long as size of factory < (days to arrival/.63), this holds true.

Ok, I have tried this in an actual game. I have many size 60 r&d facilities, and in no cases have they repaired faster, or even at the same speed as a sized 30 facility.

So the n is low, but not that low as to make it worthless.

In no cases has a factory repaired more than 2 points (with engine bonus). There is very old info stating there is a small chance for greater than size 30 facilities to repair more than 1 point (more than 2 points with engine).

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 8

RE: R&D question - 4/12/2017 7:43:30 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
My point was more that a R&D lab with a size of 60 will take more time to repair than a R&D lab with a size of 30, so

Your point is wrong. The rate of repair of a research factory is based upon a random number compared to a probability. The probability that a factory will repair a point on a given day is number of devices divided by days until aircraft arrival date. Suppose I create two factories today. One is Size 300, one is size 30. Both of them are for an aircraft that will arrive in 1200 days. This turn, my chance to repair the size 300 factory is 300 in 1200, or 1 in 4. This same turn, my probability to repair the size 30 factory will be 1 in 40. Mathematically, the time to fully repair a fully damaged research factory is 61-63% of the time to arrival. The EXPECTED repair date for both the size 300 factory and the size 30 is the same. As long as size of factory < (days to arrival/.63), this holds true.

Ok, I have tried this in an actual game. I have many size 60 r&d facilities, and in no cases have they repaired faster, or even at the same speed as a sized 30 facility.

So the n is low, but not that low as to make it worthless.

In no cases has a factory repaired more than 2 points (with engine bonus). There is very old info stating there is a small chance for greater than size 30 facilities to repair more than 1 point (more than 2 points with engine).

You mean...research more than 1 point? Not repair?

I'm inclined to believe the formula rather than a small set of personal observations, especially since my own personal non-rigorous observation of the size 0(55) Ki-84a Frank factory that you get in stock DOES repair individual points more quickly the the 0(30) size factories that I set up.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 9

RE: R&D question - 4/13/2017 1:57:29 AM

InfiniteMonkey

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
My point was more that a R&D lab with a size of 60 will take more time to repair than a R&D lab with a size of 30, so

Your point is wrong. The rate of repair of a research factory is based upon a random number compared to a probability. The probability that a factory will repair a point on a given day is number of devices divided by days until aircraft arrival date. Suppose I create two factories today. One is Size 300, one is size 30. Both of them are for an aircraft that will arrive in 1200 days. This turn, my chance to repair the size 300 factory is 300 in 1200, or 1 in 4. This same turn, my probability to repair the size 30 factory will be 1 in 40. Mathematically, the time to fully repair a fully damaged research factory is 61-63% of the time to arrival. The EXPECTED repair date for both the size 300 factory and the size 30 is the same. As long as size of factory < (days to arrival/.63), this holds true.

Ok, I have tried this in an actual game. I have many size 60 r&d facilities, and in no cases have they repaired faster, or even at the same speed as a sized 30 facility.

So the n is low, but not that low as to make it worthless.

The RNG is involved. The information is a calculation based upon mathematical analysis and is an expected outcome, not a firm date. The EXPECTED dates that a factory will FULLY repair are the same if they both start repairing from fully damaged on the same day and are for the same aircraft. When I say EXPECTED, I am intending that the term be understood in the statistical sense. The EXPECTED date is the estimate for the fully repaired date based upon statistical analysis. You can argue, but the tests, mathematical analysis, etc. were done in the following posts and I will not rehash them here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3022096&mpage=1&key=
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2908046&mpage=2&key=
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2253970&mpage=2&key=

The calculated date is the most common date that the factory will fully repair, but lucky or unlucky rolls can vary that date considerably.

quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
In no cases has a factory repaired more than 2 points (with engine bonus). There is very old info stating there is a small chance for greater than size 30 facilities to repair more than 1 point (more than 2 points with engine).

I assume by this that none of your factories have repaired beyond 2 x (58) or 2 x (28). If that is true, you definitely do not have enough data to draw a statistically significant result.

Finally, engines have nothing to do with repair of aircraft research factories, they can affect the number of research points that are produced by a FULLY repaired research factory. The only things affecting repair of a research factory are

1) Factory is set to repair
2) Supply sufficient to repair in base (minimum 10k at base iirc)
3) If 1 and 2 are met, a random die roll from 1 to the number of days til arrival for the aircraft is generated and added to the number of devices (repaired plus damaged). If the number exceeds the number of days to arrival, the factory repairs. Example: 1000 days til arrival, 600 size factory. On a random result between 1 and 400, no repair. On a 401-1000, the factory repairs. When the size of the factory is equal to the number of days til arrival, the factory repairs every day.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 10

RE: R&D question - 4/13/2017 11:17:22 AM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

I was talking about two distinct items and obviously wasn't clear.

1. Larger than size 30 facilities researching more than 1 point per day or more than 2 points per day with engine bonus.

and

2. The repair rate of facilities of different size. For me size 30 or size 60.

In the second case, I have/had 16 size 60 facilities. In not one case did one of these facilities repair at a percentage to completion rate faster than a size 30.

The smaller size 30 factories repaired as little as 1 month and as much as 3 months before the size 60.

I understand my sample is low.

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 11

RE: R&D question - 4/13/2017 12:26:55 PM

Xargun

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I was talking about two distinct items and obviously wasn't clear.

1. Larger than size 30 facilities researching more than 1 point per day or more than 2 points per day with engine bonus.

As for aircraft, I know the engine bonus is applied PER factory - and has nothing to do with size. So if you have 5 factories researching the Sam, at best you can earn 5 bonus research points per turn. Also, I believe the factory in question has to produce a research point in order for the Bonus to be applied. So if you are not earning research points with your factory having 500+ engines won't help at all.

< Message edited by Xargun -- 4/13/2017 12:27:38 PM >

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 12

RE: R&D question - 4/13/2017 12:46:18 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I was talking about two distinct items and obviously wasn't clear.

1. Larger than size 30 facilities researching more than 1 point per day or more than 2 points per day with engine bonus.

As for aircraft, I know the engine bonus is applied PER factory - and has nothing to do with size. So if you have 5 factories researching the Sam, at best you can earn 5 bonus research points per turn. Also, I believe the factory in question has to produce a research point in order for the Bonus to be applied. So if you are not earning research points with your factory having 500+ engines won't help at all.

Still not being clear.

There is a rumor, and it may even have come from a developer at one point years back, that if you build a larger than size 30 r&d facility there existed a chance it would repair 2 points per day rather than one. Forget about the engine bonus since that seems to be a point of confusion.

So for example: One fully repaired size 150 r&d facility has a chance to advance 2 points per day rather than 1.

I believe the rumor goes that you need to build close to a size 300 r&d facility to routinely see the extra point of advancement (it might even advance 3 points).

(in reply to Xargun)

Post #: 13

RE: R&D question - 4/13/2017 1:00:14 PM

BillBrown

Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline

Read this thread, michaelm explains all. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2825013&mpage=3&key=factory�

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 14

RE: R&D question - 4/13/2017 1:05:55 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

Thanks Bill.

per Micahel

To get 3 RD, you need to have:
(a) a fully repaired factory large enough to produce 20+ planes a day to get 2 RD points (1/10 of the daily output)
(b) +1 for no damaged devices.
That would require the factory to be about 570(0) to 600(0) depending on die roll.

(in reply to BillBrown)

Post #: 15

RE: R&D question - 4/13/2017 4:58:13 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I was talking about two distinct items and obviously wasn't clear.

1. Larger than size 30 facilities researching more than 1 point per day or more than 2 points per day with engine bonus.

As for aircraft, I know the engine bonus is applied PER factory - and has nothing to do with size. So if you have 5 factories researching the Sam, at best you can earn 5 bonus research points per turn. Also, I believe the factory in question has to produce a research point in order for the Bonus to be applied. So if you are not earning research points with your factory having 500+ engines won't help at all.

Still not being clear.

There is a rumor, and it may even have come from a developer at one point years back, that if you build a larger than size 30 r&d facility there existed a chance it would repair 2 points per day rather than one. Forget about the engine bonus since that seems to be a point of confusion.

So for example: One fully repaired size 150 r&d facility has a chance to advance 2 points per day rather than 1.

I believe the rumor goes that you need to build close to a size 300 r&d facility to routinely see the extra point of advancement (it might even advance 3 points).

You need to stop saying repair when you mean research, especially in these posts where you are also talking about factory repair rates.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 16

RE: R&D question - 4/13/2017 9:31:31 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

For example, if i have more than 500 Nakajima HA 35, will I win 1 research point/day for all following aircrafts ? :

In this case that's true as all those A/C use the Ha-35. If its a stock scenario that's probably scenario 2. OTOH in stock scenario 1 the Tojo uses a different engine, the Ha-34, so that A/C would need 500+ of those engines to receive the bonus. This difference is a dev decision, and no I have no idea why they choose to do it.

Basically I just wanted to point out that there may be some differences between scenarios and mods, so be aware.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 17

RE: R&D question - 4/14/2017 3:05:34 AM

InfiniteMonkey

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Thanks Bill.

per Micahel

To get 3 RD, you need to have:
(a) a fully repaired factory large enough to produce 20+ planes a day to get 2 RD points (1/10 of the daily output)
(b) +1 for no damaged devices.
That would require the factory to be about 570(0) to 600(0) depending on die roll.

This is very easy to test/prove. Open the scenario editor and make some BIG research factories that are fully repaired. Then, run the turn and observe the progress towards research on an aircraft by mousing over the aircraft name in the production screen list. (filter to RD Air only or sort by size descending to make finding them easier). Note in the picture below that on 12/8/41 (1 game turn run) the 900 size factory has generated 3% research points on the Irving. It is the only repaired research factory and no engine bonus applies as the pool of engines is not > 500.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 18

RE: R&D question - 5/21/2017 12:53:36 PM

ElvisDaKing

Posts: 130
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Status: offline

I have a question

July 1942, I plan to start from scratch R&D program for Ki-100 I Tony.

I will have 3 R&D lanes available
I was wondering if it s faster to start the R&D with Ki-100 I Tony, or to go through the whole 'Tony' lane starting with Ki-61a ?

SC 1
PDU ON
I will not produce any Kawasaki Ha-60

My point is that Ki-100 I Tony is available on March 1945, so it will take very long time to build the R&D Ki-100 I Tony from 0(30) to 30(0)

But if I start with Ki-61 Ia Tony available February 1943, it is very likely that my 3 lanes will be fully functionnal [30(0)] by end of 1942, and then jumping from Ki-61 Ia to Ki-61 Ib (09/43) , Ki-61 Id (04/44), Ki-61 II KAI (08/44)...

So what should be fastest option to get the Ki-100 Tony ?

_____________________________

'To my point, in war, there s just one attractive thing : the victory Parade... What sucks, it s all the things before.... We should get the enlist payroll and do the parade right away, before that it get totally screwed up'
Un Taxi pour Tobrouk

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 19

RE: R&D question - 5/21/2017 2:29:22 PM

GetAssista

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing
I will have 3 R&D lanes available
I was wondering if it s faster to start the R&D with Ki-100 I Tony, or to go through the whole 'Tony' lane starting with Ki-61a ?

Depends on what do you mean by "go through". If you will skip through 61 models not researching them then 2nd option is obviously much faster. If you will research every consequtive model to arrival and only then switch, then times will be comparable I guess

(in reply to ElvisDaKing)

Post #: 20

RE: R&D question - 5/21/2017 3:20:31 PM

InfiniteMonkey

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing

I have a question

July 1942, I plan to start from scratch R&D program for Ki-100 I Tony.

I will have 3 R&D lanes available
I was wondering if it s faster to start the R&D with Ki-100 I Tony, or to go through the whole 'Tony' lane starting with Ki-61a ?

SC 1
PDU ON
I will not produce any Kawasaki Ha-60

My point is that Ki-100 I Tony is available on March 1945, so it will take very long time to build the R&D Ki-100 I Tony from 0(30) to 30(0)

But if I start with Ki-61 Ia Tony available February 1943, it is very likely that my 3 lanes will be fully functionnal [30(0)] by end of 1942, and then jumping from Ki-61 Ia to Ki-61 Ib (09/43) , Ki-61 Id (04/44), Ki-61 II KAI (08/44)...

So what should be fastest option to get the Ki-100 Tony ?

I plugged the numbers into a spreadsheet using the conditions you specified. The short answer:

- If you research the Ki-100 as an base model, factories repair on approximately 12/20/1943 and would then arrive on 5/25/1944.

- If you research each step along the line fully before starting research on the next in line, the Ki-100 will likely arrive on 7/21/1944 - almost 2 months later.

- If you research the air frame and then decide to try a new engine, the Ki-100 becomes available on 7/22/1944, approximately 10 to 12 months earlier.

Please note that these are theoretical calculations based upon predicted dates for repair of the research factories. YMMV.

Also note that in all cases, I assumed that you had > 500 Mitsubishi Ha-33 engines in the pool during research of the Ki-100, but 0 Kawasaki Ha-60.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by InfiniteMonkey -- 5/21/2017 3:22:59 PM >

(in reply to ElvisDaKing)

Post #: 21

RE: R&D question - 5/21/2017 5:48:53 PM

ElvisDaKing

Posts: 130
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing

I have a question

July 1942, I plan to start from scratch R&D program for Ki-100 I Tony.

I will have 3 R&D lanes available
I was wondering if it s faster to start the R&D with Ki-100 I Tony, or to go through the whole 'Tony' lane starting with Ki-61a ?

SC 1
PDU ON
I will not produce any Kawasaki Ha-60

My point is that Ki-100 I Tony is available on March 1945, so it will take very long time to build the R&D Ki-100 I Tony from 0(30) to 30(0)

But if I start with Ki-61 Ia Tony available February 1943, it is very likely that my 3 lanes will be fully functionnal [30(0)] by end of 1942, and then jumping from Ki-61 Ia to Ki-61 Ib (09/43) , Ki-61 Id (04/44), Ki-61 II KAI (08/44)...

So what should be fastest option to get the Ki-100 Tony ?

I plugged the numbers into a spreadsheet using the conditions you specified. The short answer:

- If you research the Ki-100 as an base model, factories repair on approximately 12/20/1943 and would then arrive on 5/25/1944.

- If you research each step along the line fully before starting research on the next in line, the Ki-100 will likely arrive on 7/21/1944 - almost 2 months later.

- If you research the air frame and then decide to try a new engine, the Ki-100 becomes available on 7/22/1944, approximately 10 to 12 months earlier.

Please note that these are theoretical calculations based upon predicted dates for repair of the research factories. YMMV.

Also note that in all cases, I assumed that you had > 500 Mitsubishi Ha-33 engines in the pool during research of the Ki-100, but 0 Kawasaki Ha-60.

Thanks
Very Impressive...

But if I understood correctly your chart, you considered Research starting date on 7/December 1941 when I plan to start on 1st July 1942...
Would it change the date and the fact that researching Ki-100 will be better option ?

Can you please elaborate the option to reach availability date in July 1943, not sure to understand...
Presume you mean '7/22/1943'
- If you research the air frame and then decide to try a new engine, the Ki-100 becomes available on 7/22/1944, approximately 10 to 12 months earlier.

You meant start R&D with Ki-61a and then upgrading directly to Ki-100 , bypassing Ki-61 Ib, etc... ?

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Post #: 22

RE: R&D question - 5/21/2017 7:32:06 PM

InfiniteMonkey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing
But if I understood correctly your chart, you considered Research starting date on 7/December 1941 when I plan to start on 1st July 1942...
Would it change the date and the fact that researching Ki-100 will be better option ?

Can you please elaborate the option to reach availability date in July 1943, not sure to understand...
Presume you mean '7/22/1943'
- If you research the air frame and then decide to try a new engine, the Ki-100 becomes available on 7/22/1944, approximately 10 to 12 months earlier.

You meant start R&D with Ki-61a and then upgrading directly to Ki-100 , bypassing Ki-61 Ib, etc... ?

Yup, I meant if you switch the Ki-61-Ia factories to Ki-100-Ia as soon as the Ki-61-Ia research facilities are fully repaired. You must switch one step at a time, upgrading first to Ki-61-Ib, then Ki-61-Id, etc. It is more clicks but all in one turn. If your factory is on Ki-61-Ia and you try to jump to the Ki-100-Ia, then they will be damaged in that process. You HAVE to choose the upgrade for the factory to avoid damage, but you can do multiple "upgrades" in one day.

Revised spreadsheet with 7/1/1942 start date for all scenarios:

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 23

RE: R&D question - 5/22/2017 9:06:15 PM

rustysi

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ElvisDaKing. Are you playing against the AI or in a PBEM game? If you are in a PBEM game you should check with your opponent before you start. What you are being advised to do is frowned upon by many Allied players. You would be skipping R&D levels in the A/C progression. IOW many players feel you must research each progression of an A/C before starting the next. The R&D portion of the game is a cookie that the devs gave to the Japanese players such that they may stay competitive in the air further into the game. Uses such as this may be looked on as abuse of that cookie.

The above is JMHO, but does match the way I wish to play. How you play your game is up to you, just be aware that against a human opponent there may be disagreement in this instance.

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RE: R&D question - 5/23/2017 4:05:15 AM

InfiniteMonkey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ElvisDaKing. Are you playing against the AI or in a PBEM game? If you are in a PBEM game you should check with your opponent before you start. What you are being advised to do is frowned upon by many Allied players. You would be skipping R&D levels in the A/C progression. IOW many players feel you must research each progression of an A/C before starting the next. The R&D portion of the game is a cookie that the devs gave to the Japanese players such that they may stay competitive in the air further into the game. Uses such as this may be looked on as abuse of that cookie.

The above is JMHO, but does match the way I wish to play. How you play your game is up to you, just be aware that against a human opponent there may be disagreement in this instance.

Directly researching the Ki-100 is faster than the proposed method by a margin of weeks to months. This is without skipping - repair Ki-100 research factories and you will beat the "no skip" approach you "approve". Do you consider this gamey as well?

Note: I regard the Ki-61 to Ki-100 and A6M2 to A6M8 paths as far more legitimate than getting Ki-84's in early 43 or A7M's in late 44. The wonder is that they did not fit more powerful engines sooner given the previous examples of performance increases from changing engines: A6M, B5N, Ki-21, etc. I just do not understand the mindset that it is okay with Ki-84's appearing in 1943, but balks at a Ki-100 in the same period. On some level, I feel like you should just ask your opponents to adhere to a house rule to "set all research factories to Not Repair and do not change size of any R&D factories" to get rid of research all together.

JMHO...

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RE: R&D question - 5/23/2017 8:16:46 AM

ElvisDaKing

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I am playing PBEM

Actually I was not aware that we can do multi upgrade same day on an achieved (blue) R&D lane without damaging it...

I don t know if its gamey, but it appears to me to be a system exploit as I presume if I do the 'next' upgrade on the following day, then the R&D lane will be damaged - need to do the test at home...
So, as a personal opinion and without any judgment for those who are not doing same, I will not use it. ;)

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RE: R&D question - 5/23/2017 9:36:11 PM

rustysi

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quote:

Directly researching the Ki-100 is faster than the proposed

You are missing the point. I follow the wire chart that is available in some thread herein. I haven't looked for it because I have a hard copy that I use while playing. Therefore the series begins with the Ki-61-1a or 1c, chart allows you to start with either, not sure why. Dev decision AFAIK. So you will not get to the Ki-100 for some time.

As for the Frank, Ki-84a, its due in Jan '44 so a start date of sometime in '43 is attainable using the method provided in the game. How early '43 I don't know, but the effort would be both substantial and costly to get it very early. I'll have to see in my current game, but I don't think I will receive it before mid-year. Again a dev decision. There's no skipping or such.

As I've always stated anyway, you may play your way and I will mine. Doubt we shall ever be opponents as its obvious we won't agree on this subject. In addition I was simply pointing out to the op that he should check with his opponent before using the method you propose.

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RE: R&D question - 5/25/2017 1:04:05 AM

rustysi

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Correction to what I posted above...

Ki-84a is due to arrive Apr '44, my chart was wrong, has been corrected. All this means is that the 84 should arrive even later, unless you throw everything at it. That may be done with any Japanese A/C, at a cost.

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