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Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 8:54:22 AM

Hermann

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Joined: 11/17/2006
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OZK lets put an end to this insanity once and for all. once upon a time HQ Bombing was off kilter and took out a high proportion of commanding officers. The forums exploded in outrage and players started making gentlemans agreements to stop bombing HQ's but this is Matrix - the developers noticed and fixed it. Nowadays the only ones benefitting from this are panzerball players. look at a german panzerkorps HQ you'll see its packed top to bottom with Corps assets. Then check your combat results and see the effect those assets have on combat. So while youre getting encircled and smashed by tank blobs you're supposed to be a good sport and refrain from bombing the units that are hitting you hardest. what is offered in return ? a gentlemans agreement not to concentrate overwhelming force and tear you to shreds ? think not. Time to throw off the yoke and strike back my Russian friends. add a pvo aa regiment to your own HQ's and blast the german HQ's to shreds on sight make em keep em farther back and defend them if they want to keep em unharmed stop taking a pounding to do the right thing and hammer those HQ's The myth about hq bombing hurting both players equally is busted. they want a free ride and 2 million prisoners make enm pay through their HQ's

Post #: 1

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 9:39:42 AM

Stelteck

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
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Yes, revolution for the soviet player !!! Follow this new people's hero against the german conspiracy !!!!

(in reply to Hermann)

Post #: 2

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 10:25:39 AM

56ajax

Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline

Against an experienced German opponent, the game is really grim and boring for the first 100 odd turns. Throw the Soviets a few crumbs please. Anyway I dont think bombing HQs would make much difference.

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Post #: 3

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 11:14:30 AM

Stelteck

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
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Relative to balance, I always wonder why the +1 soviet attack bonus is most of the time desactivated in the game.

This bonus was in the original game before a patch allow to desactivate it, and was necessary to better reflect the soviet counter attack ability early war (and soviet did attacked a lot !!). It was not an error if the bonus was here. (The bonus is also no more active after first blizzard, when soviet army begin to have dedicated offensive units).

I'am not s�re a game can be balance without it.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 4/12/2017 11:15:02 AM >

(in reply to 56ajax)

Post #: 4

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 1:43:24 PM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
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I'm liking the prose.

Hard Luck, see, see, oh see what you've done. Yet another crop of semi newbies crying over the rules. Sorry newbs, I'll get to you later.

John, Sov may launch devastating winter "O" turn 25. Mild blizzard is plenty. Winter 42/43 Sov should be able to seize the strategic initiative, another offensive, different from first winter. Summer '43 should be interesting, clever axis player can really, really hurt you.

What you guys can do is figure out this Pzball nonsense for yourselves. Rules, as is are just fine.

Or you can PM me and I will coach. If you want the coach option first thing is to find a gaming partner who will take the other side and play for the purpose of learning. So much easier this way, way more fun. Probably take months, you heard me right.

Before you start in on me go to utube and find song "When the levee breaks", the harmonica version. Zeparella, a girl group, does a great job. Then when you can weep and moan, go after me full force.

Ok, a bit of failed sarcasm, but I'm trying to be witty. You see our pal Mr Sillyflower has killed my expensive lawyers and has a big (huge) judgement on me, only thing I can do now is make a fool of myself in the forums or he takes everything. Maybe he will relent and I can at least eat beans for the rest of my days. hehehehe

(in reply to Stelteck)

Post #: 5

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 3:23:15 PM

Hermann

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
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I smell a panzerballer... don't go to the dark side - refuse to learn his silly strategy ! Find him and bomb his HQ's! the force is with us !~

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Post #: 6

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 4:41:17 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann

OZK lets put an end to this insanity once and for all. once upon a time HQ Bombing was off kilter and took out a high proportion of commanding officers. The forums exploded in outrage and players started making gentlemans agreements to stop bombing HQ's but this is Matrix - the developers noticed and fixed it. Nowadays the only ones benefitting from this are panzerball players. look at a german panzerkorps HQ you'll see its packed top to bottom with Corps assets. Then check your combat results and see the effect those assets have on combat. So while youre getting encircled and smashed by tank blobs you're supposed to be a good sport and refrain from bombing the units that are hitting you hardest. what is offered in return ? a gentlemans agreement not to concentrate overwhelming force and tear you to shreds ? think not. Time to throw off the yoke and strike back my Russian friends. add a pvo aa regiment to your own HQ's and blast the german HQ's to shreds on sight make em keep em farther back and defend them if they want to keep em unharmed stop taking a pounding to do the right thing and hammer those HQ's The myth about hq bombing hurting both players equally is busted. they want a free ride and 2 million prisoners make enm pay through their HQ's

This has been fixed in recent patches anyway. But just consider this. What the Soviets do is normally done with medicore results with their units. On the otherhand the Germans do a great deal better. So Germans pounding Soviet HQ's sounds kinda fun ;-P

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 4/12/2017 4:42:03 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 4:43:01 PM

Hermann

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
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don't read this its boobytrapped

< Message edited by Hermann -- 4/12/2017 4:50:22 PM >

(in reply to charlie0311)

Post #: 8

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 4:47:52 PM

Hermann

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline

this one too I hate mornings

< Message edited by Hermann -- 4/12/2017 4:51:08 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 4:51:44 PM

Hermann

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann

OZK lets put an end to this insanity once and for all. once upon a time HQ Bombing was off kilter and took out a high proportion of commanding officers. The forums exploded in outrage and players started making gentlemans agreements to stop bombing HQ's but this is Matrix - the developers noticed and fixed it. Nowadays the only ones benefitting from this are panzerball players. look at a german panzerkorps HQ you'll see its packed top to bottom with Corps assets. Then check your combat results and see the effect those assets have on combat. So while youre getting encircled and smashed by tank blobs you're supposed to be a good sport and refrain from bombing the units that are hitting you hardest. what is offered in return ? a gentlemans agreement not to concentrate overwhelming force and tear you to shreds ? think not. Time to throw off the yoke and strike back my Russian friends. add a pvo aa regiment to your own HQ's and blast the german HQ's to shreds on sight make em keep em farther back and defend them if they want to keep em unharmed stop taking a pounding to do the right thing and hammer those HQ's The myth about hq bombing hurting both players equally is busted. they want a free ride and 2 million prisoners make enm pay through their HQ's

This has been fixed in recent patches anyway. But just consider this. What the Soviets do is normally done with medicore results with their units. On the otherhand the Germans do a great deal better. So Germans pounding Soviet HQ's sounds kinda fun ;-P

Bring it ! Von Curtis, Dinglr, Hortlund and the other flyboys will eat you alive =) our HQ's are empty in 1941 bomb em to your hearts content... and as far as 1942/43 please do anything to drag your guns off ground support and into my 90mm bullet fiesta. FIND THE HQ's ! bomb them into the stone age ! we never signed the Geneva accords !

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 10

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 4:58:56 PM

Hermann

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Joined: 11/17/2006
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you know what the Russians did to German HQ's during the war ? First they bombed the kraut of them and forced em to set up in the forests, then they used incendiary bombs upwind and set the forest on fire... The noble Russian airmen are spinning in their graves watching brave Russian soldiers die over a gentlemans agreement some noob was tricked into signing. HQ's must burn - keel dem allz !

(in reply to Hermann)

Post #: 11

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 6:54:51 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hermann

you know what the Russians did to German HQ's during the war ? First they bombed the kraut of them and forced em to set up in the forests, then they used incendiary bombs upwind and set the forest on fire... The noble Russian airmen are spinning in their graves watching brave Russian soldiers die over a gentlemans agreement some noob was tricked into signing. HQ's must burn - keel dem allz !

Since this has been fixed in the game with recent patches I believe the whole premise of this subject post is mute :) No myth to bust just people still pulling the special rules from prior AAR's as their rules. I don't see why not to allow it again to be honest.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 4/12/2017 7:04:11 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 7:41:53 PM

M60A3TTS

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It seems difficult to find a balance in killing off leaders, so they just opted to turn it off for the most part.

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Post #: 13

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 8:51:59 PM

Grognard1812

Posts: 909
Joined: 3/28/2017
From: Canada
Status: offline

As someone new to this forum I have read many of the recent posts in the AAR section and this section. As
this thread is about play balance I have noticed that on most of the AARs where the German player is tearing apart
the Soviet player most of the settings are the following - Non-random weather, reduced blizzard effect,
no Soviet combat bonus with house rules for paratroopers and naval landings. As most if not all of the settings
are to the German advantage I think it sets up for very ahistorical outcomes, where a good level German player
should be able to capture Leningrad and Moscow. I find the biggest advantage to the Germans in the games that
I have played is the Combat doctrine being changed from Soviet combat bonus Attack +1 to None. With this
it is extremely difficult to combat the panzer thrusts - sometimes a single regiment of Panzer troops can fend
off an attack by 3 or more Russian divisions which is totally unrealistic. Do you feel the Attack +1 should be
used more often for play balance?

(in reply to M60A3TTS)

Post #: 14

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/12/2017 9:13:43 PM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

In my opinion best settings for PvP play are:
- reduced blizzard
- random weather
- Soviet attack +1
- paratroopers and naval landings allowed

< Message edited by morvael -- 4/12/2017 9:14:21 PM >

(in reply to Grognard1812)

Post #: 15

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/13/2017 2:49:27 AM

56ajax

Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

I'm liking the prose.

Hard Luck, see, see, oh see what you've done. Yet another crop of semi newbies crying over the rules. Sorry newbs, I'll get to you later.

John, Sov may launch devastating winter "O" turn 25. Mild blizzard is plenty. Winter 42/43 Sov should be able to seize the strategic initiative, another offensive, different from first winter. Summer '43 should be interesting, clever axis player can really, really hurt you.

What you guys can do is figure out this Pzball nonsense for yourselves. Rules, as is are just fine.

Or you can PM me and I will coach. If you want the coach option first thing is to find a gaming partner who will take the other side and play for the purpose of learning. So much easier this way, way more fun. Probably take months, you heard me right.

Before you start in on me go to utube and find song "When the levee breaks", the harmonica version. Zeparella, a girl group, does a great job. Then when you can weep and moan, go after me full force.

Ok, a bit of failed sarcasm, but I'm trying to be witty. You see our pal Mr Sillyflower has killed my expensive lawyers and has a big (huge) judgement on me, only thing I can do now is make a fool of myself in the forums or he takes everything. Maybe he will relent and I can at least eat beans for the rest of my days. hehehehe

Ok, I will bite on this. Come back at Xmas time in 1943. Yep for the Soviet the game is grim and boring. I think we are up to Turn 27 in my campaign game (and the way we are going it is going to take longer than the actual war). Without giving too much away I have a massive army and airforce which is gaining experience so slowly I wonder what they are doing. Mild blizzard, the AXIS army is in decline but their Panzer force is still growing. I am obtaining lots of one hex retreats but the losses can be up to 10 to 1 in favour of the AXIS. No breakthroughs (yet). By campaign season my opponent will have a massive Panzer army; historically the joke went 1st PZ had one tank, 2nd PZ 2 tanks, 3rd had 3 etc...but in the game 1st PZ has 100 tanks 2nd has 200 3rd has 300 etc...since the game started I have bombed ever PZ and Mot div I have located which has destroyed 1 tank, a captured T 34.

Anyway enough of that rant I am doing ok in the game historically but at times it is boring.

(in reply to charlie0311)

Post #: 16

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/13/2017 5:23:26 AM

Hermann

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im at turn 60 odd vs the evil von kurtis... held him back then tarted grabbing real estate at will. my army is in great shape and im ablee to roam around at will. apparently he read the forum post I had a panxer corps moving behind the frontline in well supplied territory... his 18000 strong airforce has had no impact till this turn but he blasted my hq for 1500 men and almost all the supply and pretty much immobilized it from the air.

(in reply to 56ajax)

Post #: 17

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/13/2017 6:25:11 AM

Icier

Posts: 564
Joined: 7/15/2014
From: a sunny beach nsw
Status: offline

Hey guys, stop getting your knickers in a knot over this. The choice is yours @ the beginning of the game whether you want to play with HQ bombing or not.
Truth be told, I haven't never lost any Generals to bombing.
Really what we should be discussing is like that posting about Bombing Berlin @ the start of the game. Done properly it knocks out German tank production @ the start of the invasion.
Who has ever mention this in any of the posting, I have never see it.

_____________________________

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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Post #: 18

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/13/2017 6:47:31 AM

Stelteck

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True soviet generals already bombs HQ because, you know, sometimes units are not properly identified and could be bombed by mystake... 2 times sometimes just to confirm that it is truely an HQ.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 4/13/2017 6:48:13 AM >

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Post #: 19

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/13/2017 8:30:28 AM

Hermann

Posts: 571
Joined: 11/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ice

Hey guys, stop getting your knickers in a knot over this. The choice is yours @ the beginning of the game whether you want to play with HQ bombing or not.
Truth be told, I haven't never lost any Generals to bombing.
Really what we should be discussing is like that posting about Bombing Berlin @ the start of the game. Done properly it knocks out German tank production @ the start of the invasion.
Who has ever mention this in any of the posting, I have never see it.

if you do a detailed combat report and saw the effect of hq bombing on supply you would be shocked

(in reply to Icier)

Post #: 20

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/13/2017 8:28:19 PM

Icier

Posts: 564
Joined: 7/15/2014
From: a sunny beach nsw
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

True soviet generals already bombs HQ because, you know, sometimes units are not properly identified and could be bombed by mystake... 2 times sometimes just to confirm that it is truely an HQ.

Germans do the same thing, usually an artillery unit disguised as a HQ...you just cant trust those Soviets to adhere to the rules.

_____________________________

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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Post #: 21

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/16/2017 10:35:51 AM

sillyflower

Posts: 3509
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From: Back in Blighty
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

In my opinion best settings for PvP play are:
- reduced blizzard
- random weather
- Soviet attack +1
- paratroopers and naval landings allowed

I think the almost the opposite

full fat blizzard
fixed weather
no +1 - not so useful these days anyway given loss ratios in '41 attacks by russians vs germans
limited paras (I have max of 1 per turn and 6 in whole game vs Pitaman) + the current restricted standard HR for naval invasions.

RE HQ bombing, it has become a lot less effective due to recent patches. Brian G and I have a HR only 1 bombing mission per HQ hex rather than the normal 2. This seems to be a reasonable compromise under current rules. I didn't like it earlier but it was something B was very keen on.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 22

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/16/2017 10:38:48 AM

sillyflower

Posts: 3509
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From: Back in Blighty
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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

You see our pal Mr Sillyflower has killed my expensive lawyers and has a big (huge) judgement on me, only thing I can do now is make a fool of myself in the forums or he takes everything. Maybe he will relent and I can at least eat beans for the rest of my days. hehehehe

Is there a Mrs Charlie or anyone else you live with? If so, it would not be fair on them to let you eat too many beans

_____________________________

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Post #: 23

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/16/2017 12:07:17 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

In my opinion best settings for PvP play are:
- reduced blizzard
- random weather
- Soviet attack +1
- paratroopers and naval landings allowed

I think the almost the opposite

full fat blizzard
fixed weather
no +1 - not so useful these days anyway given loss ratios in '41 attacks by russians vs germans
limited paras (I have max of 1 per turn and 6 in whole game vs Pitaman) + the current restricted standard HR for naval invasions.

RE HQ bombing, it has become a lot less effective due to recent patches. Brian G and I have a HR only 1 bombing mission per HQ hex rather than the normal 2. This seems to be a reasonable compromise under current rules. I didn't like it earlier but it was something B was very keen on.

I concur with Sillyflower on this one.

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Post #: 24

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/16/2017 1:23:16 PM

sillyflower

Posts: 3509
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From: Back in Blighty
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You are clearly a very wise chap

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Post #: 25

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/16/2017 5:27:36 PM

Stelteck

Posts: 1376
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In my opinion, the +1 attack bonus is necessary because it provide more tactical options to the soviet to fight. Without it it is really hard to perform any counter attack ever.

When you need 10 soviet rifle division minimum to push one german division, lol.

But, i'am beginning to think that adding normal (not mild) winter could be a good idea too

.

Relative to random weather, the current algorithm looks good (there is no silly thing like mud in july). It affect everyone and make the game more realistic, so why not adding it all the time.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 4/16/2017 5:29:01 PM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/16/2017 7:01:53 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

In my opinion, the +1 attack bonus is necessary because it provide more tactical options to the soviet to fight. Without it it is really hard to perform any counter attack ever.

When you need 10 soviet rifle division minimum to push one german division, lol.

But, i'am beginning to think that adding normal (not mild) winter could be a good idea too .

Relative to random weather, the current algorithm looks good (there is no silly thing like mud in july). It affect everyone and make the game more realistic, so why not adding it all the time.

I know that I have abused the heck out of the +1 Soviet attack bonus. On multiple occasions I ended up with a ton of Guards early and went on the offensive against Finland in the 1941 Blizzard.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 4/16/2017 7:04:53 PM >

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Post #: 27

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/16/2017 7:51:08 PM

Stelteck

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline

Nice picture !!!! I would have loved doing that. It looks like the ennemy did not managed to take leningrad during 1941, congratulation.

Is the level to convert to guard easier without the +1 attack bonus ?
Because in my previous game i had 3 armies of guard divisions at the start of winter while not attacking a lot.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 4/16/2017 8:11:34 PM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/16/2017 8:47:58 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Nice picture !!!! I would have loved doing that. It looks like the ennemy did not managed to take leningrad during 1941, congratulation.

Is the level to convert to guard easier without the +1 attack bonus ?
Because in my previous game i had 3 armies of guard divisions at the start of winter while not attacking a lot.

It is "real" easy with the +1 attack. So much so I pretty much wont play with it if I'm playing the Soviets. In the blizzard it is "almost" an "I WIN" button

I can only point to how a German attacks with the creation of your guard units in this picture. When I play the Germans I try and limit the amount of loses I sustain to delimit wins for the Soviets. I go out of my way to over compensate the odds to make sure I win the battle.

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Post #: 29

RE: Mythbuster ( HQ Bombing agreements ) - 4/16/2017 9:19:00 PM

BrianG

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quote:

RE HQ bombing, it has become a lot less effective due to recent patches. Brian G and I have a HR only 1 bombing mission per HQ hex rather than the normal 2. This seems to be a reasonable compromise under current rules. I didn't like it earlier but it was something B was very keen on.

until they nerfed my night bombers. Which you now shoot down like clay pigeons.

(in reply to sillyflower)

Post #: 30