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Spying and Intel (S&I) - 4/8/2017 2:28:55 AM

PrinceMiskin

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Is my understanding correct that the higher level of all allied parties (or axis) will determine the bonuses for all allied parties (or axis).

In short there is no benefit in investing in S&I for Italy, if Germany has already invested in it.

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 4/8/2017 4:09:55 AM

sPzAbt653

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I think you are misunderstood, there is a 1% benefit as explained in the manual 9.2.4. Research Sharing
So for example, no investment in Italy will gain no benefit [1% of nothing = nothing].

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 4/8/2017 4:58:42 AM

PrinceMiskin

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9.9.7. Spying & Intelligence

"The Spying & Intelligence levels of neutral Majors are also taken into account when determining results, and only the Major on each side with the highest level of Intelligence research affects Research progress."

There is also an example under 9.2.6, but it is not adequately explained.

"3. Let�s continue with the examples from above and now include the Spying & Intelligence bonus. In this example we will assume that our Spying & Intelligence is 2 levels higher than our enemy�s. Base Chance + (highest enemy level - current level) + (highest friendly level - current level) + Spying & Intelligence modifier) x research chits invested 5 + (3 - 1) + (4 � 1) + 2 x 1 chit = 12% chance of success per turn"

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 4/8/2017 6:11:43 AM

sPzAbt653

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But none of that means that Italy gets the same level as Germany, only a percent benefit. You still should invest in S&I for Italy. Personally, I invest in S&I for everybody I control as Priority #1, because you have a better chance of breakthroughs. Breakthroughs are sweet !

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 4/8/2017 11:53:18 AM

PrinceMiskin

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What is the meaning of this sentence?

"... only the Major on each side with the highest level of Intelligence research affects Research progress."

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Post #: 5

RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 4/10/2017 4:04:00 PM

BillRunacre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PrinceMiskin

What is the meaning of this sentence?

"... only the Major on each side with the highest level of Intelligence research affects Research progress."

Hi

This is referring to the benefit gained from one Major on your side having a higher level of Spying & Intelligence than your opponent, and relates to section 9.2.5 on pages 98-99 of the Manual, and in example 3 in the bottom left of page 99.

This is for the gradual progression from 0 to 100% in terms of research progress.

The chance of a research breakthrough once the 30% threshold has been passed is also increased by the relevant Major researching Spying & Intelligence, which is why Italy's investing in this is still beneficial (not forgetting the intelligence reports it can provide too).

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 4/12/2017 12:52:15 PM

PrinceMiskin

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Thank you. This is clear now.

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 4/17/2017 9:54:37 PM

Icier

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

But none of that means that Italy gets the same level as Germany, only a percent benefit. You still should invest in S&I for Italy. Personally, I invest in S&I for everybody I control as Priority #1, because you have a better chance of breakthroughs. Breakthroughs are sweet !

Does that apply to all S/I or only to the ones that you are currently researching ?

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 4/18/2017 3:41:11 PM

BillRunacre

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It would apply to current and future research.

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 4/18/2017 4:33:01 PM

gingerbread

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I have a hunch that the Allies and Soviets have a negative effect on each other - I invest a lot in S&I. They should not help since they are not coop but neither should they cause malus since they are not belligerent.

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Post #: 10

RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 1/29/2018 8:14:16 PM

Taxman66

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrinceMiskin

What is the meaning of this sentence?

"... only the Major on each side with the highest level of Intelligence research affects Research progress."

Hi

This is referring to the benefit gained from one Major on your side having a higher level of Spying & Intelligence than your opponent, and relates to section 9.2.5 on pages 98-99 of the Manual, and in example 3 in the bottom left of page 99.

This is for the gradual progression from 0 to 100% in terms of research progress.

The chance of a research breakthrough once the 30% threshold has been passed is also increased by the relevant Major researching Spying & Intelligence, which is why Italy's investing in this is still beneficial (not forgetting the intelligence reports it can provide too).

What, exactly, is the increased chance of breathrough amount?

If Germany is at level 1 and the UK at level 1 (thus cancelling both sides gradual increase) and the others (US, IT & USSR) at level 0, what is the increased chance Germany and the UK have (assuming no shared or catch up benefits.

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Post #: 11

RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 1/30/2018 6:53:39 PM

BillRunacre

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Hi

Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases your own research bonus by 1% and decreases your opponent�s bonus by 1%. If the enemy�s intelligence level is higher than yours, then it will just negate your own Spying & Intelligence. It won�t reduce your per turn base research % progression.

So in your example, Germany and the UK will negate each other's Spying & Intelligence.

Bill

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 1/30/2018 7:08:54 PM

Taxman66

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Bill, I'm aware of that.

I was asking about the increased chance of a breakthrough you mentioned in the last paragraph of post #5 (included in my quote above)

If that doesn't exist, or is dependent upon having S&I higher than the other side then it would mean that there is absolutely no reason for multiple major powers on the same side to reaearch it; at least in regards to improving research chances, both gradual and breakthrough chance

< Message edited by Taxman66 -- 1/30/2018 7:13:38 PM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 1/31/2018 8:21:20 PM

Taxman66

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I really would like an answer to this.

In short I'm wondering if there is ANY research benefit (it would have to be breakthrough chance improvement, as it is clear there is none to gradual increase) to having multiple major powers on a side invest in Spying & Intelligence.

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"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

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Post #: 14

RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/5/2018 2:54:26 PM

Hubert Cater

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Hi Taxman,

When the checks are made, it is relative to your own per country level versus the highest level of your enemy. So if the Intelligence level of Italy is lower than any of your enemy levels, then the Intelligence level of Italy is negated when applying the research bonus. But if Germany has a higher Intelligence level than any of the enemy, then they would receive the applicable research bonus.

Hopefully this clears it up,
Hubert

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Post #: 15

RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/5/2018 3:39:57 PM

Taxman66

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Ok got it.

Given that the USSR (and Italy for that matter) are unlikely to catch up with Germany's (or the UK's) investment it's probably not a wise early investment for them.

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Post #: 16

RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/5/2018 3:41:10 PM

Taxman66

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Oh and thank you for taking the time to explain the details. I hope you can see how the original statement could be tkaen to mean something else.

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"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

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Post #: 17

RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/5/2018 6:43:07 PM

Sugar

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Actually every major is able to research Int. from their first turn on, thereby increasing the chance of a breakthrough or simply be faster than the other side by luck. This is overall slowing research down, preventing the Axis from running ahead in PbEMs++ uncatchable and therefore highly recommended for any allied player.

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/5/2018 6:54:59 PM

Taxman66

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Not completely so.
The other powers don't start with enough MPP to research it on turn 1. And realistically, as the USSR are going to spend your first 150 MPP on S&I or save for the 200 to get Infantry Weapons 1 started? Same for Italy and either inf weapons or naval? And if you suggest France, I will laugh.
Maybe the US might buy that first. Still won't be turn 1.

_____________________________

"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

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Post #: 19

RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/5/2018 7:47:17 PM

Sugar

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Since any investment increases the chance of a breakthrough, the 3 chits of GB, US and SU are providing an increased chance over the 2 of the Axis, thereby equalling their advantage of being the first.

Even if your not able to achieve a higher lvl than your opponent for more than a few turns (if ever), it`s preventing him from running ahead. If the highest lvl of each side are the same, every nation is still benefitting from their own int.-research, and since every lvl of Int. is providing an increase of 1%, every single branch will also benefit, thereby equalling the(theoretical)loss of the sold chits of anyway obsolete investments in Log., Prod., Anti-Tank or rockets.

Besides: researching naval for the Axis is redundant, they`re able to win a decisive Victory without any ship at all.

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Post #: 20

RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/5/2018 7:59:34 PM

Taxman66

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What you are claiming in paragraph 2 is not my understanding. Can you please explain.

If the highest level for each side are the same, isn't it a wash. E.g. If Germany is at a 1, the UK, USSR and USA all at 1 how are the allies gaining any addidtional bebefit (for any/all turns that where the levels are the same)? In this scenario all the powers research benefit gets washed out; and there is no increased breakthrough chance either as Hubert just explained.

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Post #: 21

RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/5/2018 9:54:04 PM

PvtBenjamin

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Very Interesting

< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 2/6/2018 10:10:10 AM >

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/5/2018 10:07:19 PM

Taxman66

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I'm not saying I doubt him, just that I fail to comprehend and would like it demonstrated mathematically.

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/6/2018 4:05:32 AM

Sugar

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That`s my understanding of how Int. works, I could be wrong of course.

Int. is providing a bonus of + 1%/lvl of Int.; an increased chance for a breakthrough (1%/lvl); and a decrease of opponents research by 1%, if at least one of your own majors research lvl of Int. is higher than the highest Int.-lvl of your opponents majors; if both highest lvls are the same, they`re still benefitting from their own lvl. of Int. as wel as the chance of a breakthrough.

The progress of research is 2-7% (5% on average) without any lvl of Int. as well as a chance for breakthrough, being 5% once the threshold of 45% has been passed; you can add +1% per every lvl of Int. to both, unless your opponents highest lvl of Int. is higher than your highest.

Catch up boni as well as sharing of research are calculated before the comparison of the lvls of Int.; since doublechitting is providing double the progress and the chance of a breakthrough, it's recommended whereever possible.

Quote Hubert Cater: "When the checks are made, it is relative to your own per country level versus the highest level of your enemy. So if the Intelligence level of Italy is lower than any* of your enemy levels, then the Intelligence level of Italy is negated when applying the research bonus. But if Germany has a higher Intelligence level than any* of the enemy, then they would receive the applicable research bonus."

* In my understanding this means each, not some.

Conclusion: the most serious threat occurs by an opponents lvl of Int. being higher than yours; if you don`t research Int. at all, this threat is becoming reality, when your opponent is reaching the first lvl of Int.; thereby slowing down your research by 1%/lvl of Int. as well as denying the chance of a beakthrough (afaik, or reducing it by 1% at min.) and increasing his progression by 1%/lvl of Int..

By researching Int. with every own major (realistically GB, US, and SU or Germany and Italy), you`re diminishing this threat without any downside (except the costs of selling some less valuable chits); the boni of any lvl of Int. occur at latest by reaching your opponents highest lvl of Int.

Even if your opponent is achieving the first lvl of Int. at first, your chance to catch up is trippled by investing with each major, thereby diminishing the period of your mali.

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/6/2018 12:04:10 PM

Taxman66

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The more I look at it the less sense Hubert's quote makes in regards to the parts you emphasized. How does Germany get a benefit if she has the same level as the UK but a better level than the USSR? The rule and Hubert also say your level is compared to the highest level on the other side and if greater you get a benefit.

Or does the comparison vs other enemy powers research level apply when your level is equal to the highest on the other side?

I would still like some specific examples of how this works when the highest level on each side is equal, but not all powers are at the same level.

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/6/2018 1:23:50 PM

Sugar

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I agree the explanations seem not be as clear and as complete as I�d wish they would be; furthermore they're hardly comprehended in game. It would be a huge effort to comprehend by launching a hot-seat-game, watch the progression under all possible circumstances for each different sector; and to draw a conclusion.

I`m considering the question under the terms of priorities: how can I prevent the other side from running ahead and increase my own progression most effective? I also assume this issue to be one of the most important aspects in PbEMs; therefore I also probably would spend MPPs in case they're only providing an increased chance of a breakthrough.

What I did observe in previous versions of the game - when there still existed the possibility to doublechit Int. - was the Axis to be way ahead, peaking in mid. 42, especially against the AI or unexperienced opponents neglecting research of Int.. Since this means nearly doubling the impact of Int., it`s able to give a hint in this matter.

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/8/2018 2:32:57 PM

LLv34Mika

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hmmm... I read all that but it brings me to one simple thought:

if you only get a bonus if your spy level is HIGHER than ANY (not all) of the opponents fractions that would mean that only one country (Germany OR Italy / GB, USSR, USA) has to research spy/intel.

So if GB is on 3 Germany will never be able to run ahead and vice versa.

Correct?

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 2/8/2018 3:06:05 PM

Taxman66

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If my interpretation (which is what I've been questioning in this discussion) is correct, then for defensive purposes (i.e. preventing the other side from getting a bonus) then yes. If Germany is at 3, Italy 0, and the UK 2, then Italy will not get a research bonus while Germany will get one; and none of the Allies will.

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 10/22/2018 3:32:57 PM

Goodmongo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

If my interpretation (which is what I've been questioning in this discussion) is correct, then for defensive purposes (i.e. preventing the other side from getting a bonus) then yes. If Germany is at 3, Italy 0, and the UK 2, then Italy will not get a research bonus while Germany will get one; and none of the Allies will.

In this scenario then it only makes sense for one major to do the investment. Once UK reaches 3 then no one on either side gets the benefit.

Has this been confirmed?

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RE: Spying and Intel (S&I) - 10/22/2018 7:59:37 PM

Sugar

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According to Bill's and Hubert's posts, this is actually the case. Nevertheless it's worth to research Intel. with every major country, since it's increasing the chance for a breakthrough in Intel., and you want to be the first developping Intel. 3 under all circumstances; the probability is of course the higher, the more countries participate.

Once Intel. 3 is reached, you may sell those now redundant chits.

(in reply to Goodmongo)

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