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Convoys in WW2 - 4/28/2017 9:15:36 AM   
woods

 

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Status: offline 		Read that convoys in WW2 had only DDs and smaller ships for escorts. Don't capital ships escort too? The link to my reading : http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/atlantic/convoy.aspx

< Message edited by woods -- 4/28/2017 9:16:13 AM >

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 4/28/2017 10:33:22 AM   
GetAssista

 

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Status: offline 		It was more effective to have designated SCTFs of capital ships hunting detected surface raiders instead of tying capitals with slow moving merchants and have more risk of a succcessful sub attack. Moreso with the development of Allied air search over Atlantic. Germans stopped surface raiding rather early in the war because of that

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 4/28/2017 12:52:28 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: woods

Read that convoys in WW2 had only DDs and smaller ships for escorts. Don't capital ships escort too? The link to my reading : http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/atlantic/convoy.aspx


Actually, the USN used a lot of cruisers for escort in the pacific - even pre-war. This was mainly to protect against eventual German raiders in the
area. It was also common to transfer capital ships in connection with convoys. Troop transports had priority on such instances.

Fred


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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 4/28/2017 1:08:11 PM   
dwesolick


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Status: offline 		The Brits certainly used BBs for some of their more important Atlantic and Arctic convoys, mainly to counter the potential threat of the Bismarck, Tirpitz, etc.

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 4/28/2017 1:33:12 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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Status: offline 		The British Revenge and the USN New York class BBs spent most of the early war escorting important convoys



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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 4/28/2017 2:08:56 PM   
woods

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks guys for your posts. Most helpful.

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 4/28/2017 2:11:38 PM   
Panther Bait


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Status: offline 		As the other said, the use of capital ships as convoy escorts generally depended on the threat.

If the threat was primarily submarines like in the deep Atlantic, then capital ships (essentially CVEs with DD/DE assigned to hunt down subs) were preferentially used in hunter/killer groups. Capital ships might tag along but were not generally used as anti-sub escort.

If the threats to the convoy included air attacks (especially massed air attacks like the Northern convoys to Russia) they would be more likely to get cruiser escorts and maybe a heavier DD mix versus DEs.

If the threats included surface raiders, then BBs and heavy cruisers would more likely get assigned as escort.


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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 4/28/2017 2:31:39 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		In short, they were used as the need dictated. Major troopship convoys got priority but capital ships escorted the Murmask convoys as long as there was a threat of German surface attack. Here is a photo of the Duke of York escorting an Arctic convoy to Russia-which she did 11 times in 1943.




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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 4/28/2017 7:32:58 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: woods

Read that convoys in WW2 had only DDs and smaller ships for escorts. Don't capital ships escort too? The link to my reading : http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/atlantic/convoy.aspx
warspite1

Further to the above answers:

Different convoy routes dictated different escort levels. Regardless of type there was almost always the close escort - typically destroyers, destroyer escorts and corvettes (and sometimes even submarines).

This would often be supplemented by a Distant Escort. The latter would include battleships, cruisers and carriers.

The Arctic convoys needed to guard against the German surface ships operating from Norway and so a distant escort was usually provided and this included BB, CV and CA/CL.

The British and Italians in the Mediterranean often used capital ships for the Malta/North Africa runs. This was not always the case though. The British needed carriers later in the war such was the land based air threat.

As said above, the older, slow battleships (but with decent firepower) were sometimes used to dissuade surface raiders.

If you have any specific convoys and their escorts in mind please let me know.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/28/2017 7:34:28 PM >

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 4/29/2017 2:46:57 AM   
woods

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for your post. There are quite a lot of info/writings on convoys in the Atlantic in ww2 but not so for the Pacific theatre. I got one link : http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/o/Convoys.htm

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 4/29/2017 10:32:54 AM   
Buckrock

 

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Status: offline 		After the opening weeks of the war, there just wasn't any real Japanese threat to the US-Pacific shipping lanes and by the second half
of 1942, the level of escort for Allied convoys in the Eastern Pacific would have been considered almost laughable by Atlantic standards.

Convoys were often being more heavily escorted around the Canal Zone than they were to and from Pearl Harbor.

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/1/2017 3:06:10 PM   
m10bob


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Status: offline 		When the Queen Mary was transporting the U.S. 29th I.D. to Europe, it was being escorted by some British ships which included at least one light cruiser, the HMS Curacao..
Unfortunately the skipper of the CL was criss crossing in the path of the Queen Mary and his ship was sliced right in half, with high loss of life.
The Queen Mary never even slowed down due to the threat of hostile subs.

< Message edited by m10bob -- 5/1/2017 3:11:29 PM >

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 6:03:33 AM   
woods

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

When the Queen Mary was transporting the U.S. 29th I.D. to Europe, it was being escorted by some British ships which included at least one light cruiser, the HMS Curacao..
Unfortunately the skipper of the CL was criss crossing in the path of the Queen Mary and his ship was sliced right in half, with high loss of life.
The Queen Mary never even slowed down due to the threat of hostile subs.


Sad to hear the CL got rammed. Why the Captain of CL did not zig zag? He got people killed. Was he could be bothered? Really tragic.

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 6:49:01 AM   
Barb


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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		For more informations about Convoys you can check:
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/index.html
http://naval-history.net/

Usual practice was to provide at least cruiser escort for each (battalion+) troop movement (unit bulk cargo (trucks/guns/ammo/food/oil/etc.) usually sailed independently, or were taken from local stocks on arrival). To make a picture I suggest checking the 2nd AIF + 2nd NZ Div transfer to Egypt or series of convoys to Singapore...


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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 6:49:14 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: woods


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

When the Queen Mary was transporting the U.S. 29th I.D. to Europe, it was being escorted by some British ships which included at least one light cruiser, the HMS Curacao..
Unfortunately the skipper of the CL was criss crossing in the path of the Queen Mary and his ship was sliced right in half, with high loss of life.
The Queen Mary never even slowed down due to the threat of hostile subs.


Sad to hear the CL got rammed. Why the Captain of CL did not zig zag? He got people killed. Was he could be bothered? Really tragic.
warspite1

Had the ships not been zig-zagging (standard procedure) the accident would not have happened, so yes they were both zig-zagging. Why do you say the Curacoa was not zig-zagging (and what makes you enquire if her captain could not be bothered)?

Mistakes happen all the time, in war conditions the possibility of mistakes are magnified. The captain of Curacoa was blamed 2/3rds and Queen Mary 1/3. Mistakes were made and this led to tragic loss of life, that could have been worse had Queen Mary been more damaged and her speed reduced.


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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 6:53:33 AM   
Barb


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Status: offline 		Example http://naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4001-10JAN01.htm
quote:


PASSAGE OF FIRST ANZAC CONVOY TO NORTH AFRICA - January-February 1940

The first of the Australian-New Zealand troop convoys, US.1, departed Wellington with liners ORION (23,456grt), EMPRESS OF CANADA (21,517grt), STRAITHAIRD (22,284grt) and RANGITATA (16,969grt) carrying troops for North African service, and escorted by battleship RAMILLIES and Australian heavy cruiser CANBERRA from Wellington. New Zealand light cruiser LEANDER departed Wellington on the 4th, arrived at Lyttleton on the 5th and after collecting liners DUNERA (11,162grt) and SOBIESKI (11,030grt) left again the same day. They joined the convoy in Cook Strait off North Island on the 6th.

On the 9th, liners ORCADES (23,456grt), STRATHNAVER (22,457grt), OTRANTO (20,032grt) and ORFORD (19,941grt) escorted by Australian heavy cruiser AUSTRALIA departed Sydney and joined the convoy on the 10th off Sydney.

Light cruiser LEANDER arrived at Sydney on the 11th. Australian light cruiser SYDNEY joined the convoy on the 11th and was detached on the 12th in Jervis Bay. Liner EMPRESS OF JAPAN (26,032grt) from Melbourne joined on the 12th.

Earlier, on the 8th, heavy cruiser KENT and the French SUFFREN departed Colombo and arrived at Fremantle on the 17th. On the 20th they relieved the escorting Australian cruisers, which arrived in Fremantle for refuelling.

On the convoy's arrival at Colombo on the 30th, KENT and SUFFREN were in turn relieved by Force I - aircraft carrier EAGLE, heavy cruiser SUSSEX (Flag Murray) and Australian light cruiser HOBART.

Force I had been conducting sweeps in the Indian Ocean since the 15th when it departed Colombo, arriving back on the 18th. It left again on the 25th, reached Trincomalee on the 28th, and sailed on the 30th to meet the convoy. Reaching Colombo on the 30th together, both force and convoy sailed for the Middle East on 1 February.

Destroyer WESTCOTT departed Singapore on the 28th, arrived at Colombo on 1 February and left the same day as a convoy escort. French liner ATHOS II (15,276grt) joined the convoy at Colombo.

The convoy was also screened by submarines OTUS and OLYMPUS, patrolling submerged in Nine Degree Channel between the Laccadives and Minicoy after investigating the Maldives, Addu and Chagos groups. The convoy's entry into the Red Sea on 8 February was preceded by anti-submarine patrols by Australian destroyer VENDETTA, which had been detached from the Mediterranean Fleet, and WESTCOTT, which reached Aden on the 8th. The convoy escorts were detached on the 10th and US.1 arrived safely at Suez on 12 February.


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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 7:28:22 AM   
woods

 

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Status: offline 		I read from Wikipedia that Curacoa ran a straight course.

The link ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Curacoa_(D41)

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 7:53:39 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: woods

I read from Wikipedia that Curacoa ran a straight course.

The link ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Curacoa_(D41)

Regardless, the QM was zig-zagging as required in U-boat infested waters approaching the UK when Curacoa joined her. As an escorting vessel she should have conformed to the movements of the much less maneuverable liner. As an AA cruiser, there was no urgent need for her to be in front of the liner until German aircraft were detected. If she was trying to change to the other side of the QM, she could easily have dropped back and come crossed behind QM before moving ahead again. There was some evidence at the inquiry that a junior officer had the helm of Curacoa and he assumed the merchant vessel would follow the lead of the naval one. It looks like "pride of place" was a factor in all this.

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 8:49:38 AM   
Buckrock

 

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Status: offline 		It's probably worth noting that the wartime Admiralty inquiry seems to have cleared the captain of the HMS Curacoa of any wrongdoing and the "1/3,2/3" apportionment of blame came only from the later legal case for compensation.

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 9:47:12 AM   
traskott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Example http://naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4001-10JAN01.htm
quote:


PASSAGE OF FIRST ANZAC CONVOY TO NORTH AFRICA - January-February 1940

The first of the Australian-New Zealand troop convoys, US.1, departed Wellington with liners ORION (23,456grt), EMPRESS OF CANADA (21,517grt), STRAITHAIRD (22,284grt) and RANGITATA (16,969grt) carrying troops for North African service, and escorted by battleship RAMILLIES and Australian heavy cruiser CANBERRA from Wellington. New Zealand light cruiser LEANDER departed Wellington on the 4th, arrived at Lyttleton on the 5th and after collecting liners DUNERA (11,162grt) and SOBIESKI (11,030grt) left again the same day. They joined the convoy in Cook Strait off North Island on the 6th.

On the 9th, liners ORCADES (23,456grt), STRATHNAVER (22,457grt), OTRANTO (20,032grt) and ORFORD (19,941grt) escorted by Australian heavy cruiser AUSTRALIA departed Sydney and joined the convoy on the 10th off Sydney.

Light cruiser LEANDER arrived at Sydney on the 11th. Australian light cruiser SYDNEY joined the convoy on the 11th and was detached on the 12th in Jervis Bay. Liner EMPRESS OF JAPAN (26,032grt) from Melbourne joined on the 12th.

Earlier, on the 8th, heavy cruiser KENT and the French SUFFREN departed Colombo and arrived at Fremantle on the 17th. On the 20th they relieved the escorting Australian cruisers, which arrived in Fremantle for refuelling.

On the convoy's arrival at Colombo on the 30th, KENT and SUFFREN were in turn relieved by Force I - aircraft carrier EAGLE, heavy cruiser SUSSEX (Flag Murray) and Australian light cruiser HOBART.

Force I had been conducting sweeps in the Indian Ocean since the 15th when it departed Colombo, arriving back on the 18th. It left again on the 25th, reached Trincomalee on the 28th, and sailed on the 30th to meet the convoy. Reaching Colombo on the 30th together, both force and convoy sailed for the Middle East on 1 February.

Destroyer WESTCOTT departed Singapore on the 28th, arrived at Colombo on 1 February and left the same day as a convoy escort. French liner ATHOS II (15,276grt) joined the convoy at Colombo.

The convoy was also screened by submarines OTUS and OLYMPUS, patrolling submerged in Nine Degree Channel between the Laccadives and Minicoy after investigating the Maldives, Addu and Chagos groups. The convoy's entry into the Red Sea on 8 February was preceded by anti-submarine patrols by Australian destroyer VENDETTA, which had been detached from the Mediterranean Fleet, and WESTCOTT, which reached Aden on the 8th. The convoy escorts were detached on the 10th and US.1 arrived safely at Suez on 12 February.



Looks like a truly minimal escort: 1 CA/CL for 3 big juicy troop transports ( liners ). If I would do that, I will send them unescorted to take advantage of superior speed ( less time on transit ).

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 1:28:36 PM   
Barb


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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		At that time the only real threat was from surface raiders between New Zealand and Red Sea.
Actually for each leg of the journey a different escort was in place:
Wellington - Sydney: BB Ramillies, CA Canberra, CL Leander for 4+2 transports
Sydney - Fremantle (Perth): BB Ramillies, CA Canberra, CA Australia, CL Sydney (1 day only) for 6+4+1 transports
Fremantle - Colombo: BB Ramillies, CA Kent, CA Suffern for 11 transports
Colombo - Red Sea: CV Eagle, BB Ramillies, CA Sussex, CL Hobart, DD Westcott for 11+1 transports

I would actually use a rule of thumb - for each Bn transported count escorts as:
CL - 1 Bn
CA - 3 Bn
BB - 9 Bn
However if this rule of thumb was in use within WITP, players would be hard pressed to have enough surface ships around (as was reality, IIRC, US Navy had more CAs tied to troop escort than CV Task forces up to 8/42). Now take the opening months of war - send half the British/Dutch fleet to escort reinforcements from the far east, send all RAN/RNZN cruisers to provide escort too, and keep half US CAs/CLs tied in escort service...

See whats left :)

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 2:46:50 PM   
traskott


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Status: offline 		Zero, and it's not the fighter .

And in game KB raids are more probably...

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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 3:08:40 PM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb
IIRC, US Navy had more CAs tied to troop escort than CV Task forces up to 8/42).


By the time of Coral Sea, few USN CAs in the Pacific were still regularly involved in convoy escort. Most were by then in CV TFs, a few were operating with the RAN (TF 44) and a few more would soon form part of TF 8 that would operate to protect the North Pacific.

The USN CLs had now become the main cruiser type chosen when important convoys needed escorting in the Pacific.


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RE: Convoys in WW2 - 5/2/2017 4:39:52 PM   
m10bob


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Status: offline 		Just a trivia tidbit...During WW2, it was common for former civilian passenger liners to steam alone, un-escorted, in a straight passage at high speed, the theory being subs could neither catch them, nor make a good torpedo attack.
My dad in law was on the USS Wakefield early in the war.
She had been the SS Manhattan, once the world speed holder for a passenger liner.
She carried troops to Singapore before the fall, took a bomb at that port, and later carries the 2ns USMC to Wellington.

The emphasis here is on the word CIVILIAN regarding the speed factor.

Later, he was aboard the USS Calloway, APA 19 (iirc), and it certainly was nowhere near as fast and always moved in convoy.

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