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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 3:30:26 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Your "East Tennessee to Virginia" recollection is for Longstreet's two divisions (Pickett's stayed in Virginia) following the Seige of Knoxville.

I'll leave the question open, in case anyone happens to know (no cheating: no looking it up).

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/27/2017 3:31:02 AM >

(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 10081
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 3:32:03 AM   
ushakov

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/3/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hood's Tennessee campaign is a great analogy. But to complete the analogy, John would have to commit KB against a hardened target like Sydney or Townsville. There I have enough air power to make him pay.

My judgement is that he'll retire the way he came, probably refuel at Truk or Saipan, and rejoin KB around Iwo. I'm vectoring subs to the Truk and Marianas, but that's pretty much a crap shoot.

I wondered whether he might force the Torres Strait to join Mini KB, but the current course suggests not.

P.S. Does anyone here, without looking it up, have the slightest idea how Hood's Army of Tennessee ended up in North Carolina in April 1865 after being torn to pieces at Nashville five months earlier? I wondered about that eight or ten years ago, so researched it. Just one of those obscure chapters in history that never makes the history books or the books, so it was fun to dig and find out.

It's been some years since I last read about the specifics of this too, but if I recall correctly it was by no means the whole of Hood's Army of the Tennessee, but just a portion of perhaps a third of his 20,000 survivors (half of the original force) that was routed by rail from Tupelo, where they'd fetched up, through Alabama and still-Confederate Augusta, on to the Carolinas. A further third were sent to defend southern Alabama, and most of the rest melted away back to their families.

Another interesting point from this campaign, if we're being optimistic, is that Thomas was a cautious, methodical planner of offensives who spent a great deal of time refining his plans against Hood, and Lincoln and Grant, perhaps stung by their experiences with superficially similar commanders like McClellan, were considering his imminent removal before he declared himself ready and blasted Hood's army to pieces.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10082
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 3:35:53 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 8/24/2008
From: Sacramento, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Your "East Tennessee to Virginia" recollection is for Longstreet's two divisions (Pickett's stayed in Virginia) following the Seige of Knoxville.

I'll leave the question open, in case anyone happens to know (no cheating: no looking it up).



Oh. Yeah, I guess it is good that I did not offer to bet more than 5 cents then.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10083
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 3:42:25 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		ushakov has it right.

Following Nashville, the pitiful remnant of the Army of Tennessee withdrew to Mississippi, where General Hood resigned. The Army of Tennessee (by name, with quite a few units detached or melting away, as ushakov noted) then moved east by rail. I think there were gaps in the rail line, specifically at Selma, Alabama, and where Sherman had marched through Georgia. But I think the route included Columbus, Macon and Augusta, GA. Joseph Johnson resumed command as the army moved into North Carolina for the final stages of the war, where it was joined by other fragments of units - I think including troops under D.H. Hill and perhaps William J. Hardee. That "army" surrendered at Bentonville.

(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 10084
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 3:54:14 AM   
ushakov

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/3/2017
Status: offline 		Woop! I should confess here that rather than having an encyclopedic knowledge of US Civil War troop matters I got lucky: I happened to finish a few weeks ago a reread of McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom (as a layman, the best single-volume history of the war that I've found), which included in its summation of the campaign centering around the Battle of Franklin a line to the effect of 'Hood's battered survivors fetched up in Tupelo, Mississippi', which in turn triggered a memory of some details I'd read years ago of the fate of the Army of Tennessee from that point onwards.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10085
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 1:06:15 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		No Army during the Civil War suffered so many reverses and operated under so many different commanders, yet ended up as one of the last intact Confederate formations at the end of the war.....

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to ushakov)
Post #: 10086
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 1:22:05 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Yup, from pillar to post, from commander to commander, from defeat to victory to defeat.

Who was it that said that after Chickamauga, the Army of Tennessee never again fought with such élan?

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 10087
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 1:24:44 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I found it, this from Peter Cozzens, author of This Terrible Sound: "Contemplating Chickamauga two decades after the Civil War, Confederate corps commander Lt. Gen. Daniel Harvey Hill summarized the consequences of the battle from the Southern perspective. “'There was no more splendid fighting in ’61, when the flower of Southern youth was in the field, than was displayed in those bloody days of September ’63,'” wrote Hill. “'But it seems to me that the élan of the Southern soldier was never seen after Chickamauga – that brilliant dash which had distinguished him was gone forever … He fought stoutly to the last, but after Chickamauga, with the sullenness of despair and without the enthusiasm of hope. That barren victory sealed the fate of the Southern Confederacy.'”

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10088
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 2:07:11 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		Hood was getting away from the wrath of Forrest. Hood fouled what could have been a victory at Franklin.


quote:

I think there were gaps in the rail line, specifically at Selma, Alabama,


The lack of a rail across the south had a bad impact. Units were railed then moved by water along the gulf to the next rail. Louisiana Tigers had to take that trip.


what was the word for a "raid" that was for tearing up track, burning the ties and then heating and bending the rails around trees? It's been on the tip of my tongue for several days.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/27/2017 2:55:33 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10089
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 4:08:26 PM   
Braedonnal

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

what was the word for a "raid" that was for tearing up track, burning the ties and then heating and bending the rails around trees? It's been on the tip of my tongue for several days.


I know they called those 'Sherman's Neckties'. Not sure if that is what you are referring to.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 10090
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 4:12:43 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		That's what he's referring to.

(in reply to Braedonnal)
Post #: 10091
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 4:26:18 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Joined: 9/11/2016
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quote:

I know they called those 'Sherman's Neckties'. Not sure if that is what you are referring to.



quote:

That's what he's referring to.




Unfortunately no. "Sherman Neckties" , "Mrs Lincoln's Hairpins" describe the rails. This was a term for the raid itself. Like the term "foraging". It was in many books I read from the library when I worked there. I only have a few books on the civil war. Something on Mosby may have the term. Looked on the web for it the other night. AHHGGGG... I will find it!!


Thinking a "S" word..... but "Skedaddle" may be throwing a false scent on that trail.


< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/27/2017 4:29:17 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10092
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 4:29:38 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Did you know that Mosby lived next to and communicated with a young George Patton?

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 10093
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 5:15:07 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Joined: 9/11/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Did you know that Mosby lived next to and communicated with a young George Patton?




Yes, and I believe it was horse stables that brought them together. And there was a British officer from India that was a regular there.

As a kid Patton would pack a lunch and go for a walk in the woods until he found a dead animal, then he would eat while looking at it. Preparing himself for the horrors of war.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 10094
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 5:19:39 PM   
MakeeLearn


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a term used mostly in the civil war books written in late 1800s early 1900s. I had access to a large collection of such books.



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< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/27/2017 10:02:34 PM >

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 10095
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 5:40:53 PM   
Lovejoy


Posts: 240
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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

No Army during the Civil War suffered so many reverses and operated under so many different commanders, yet ended up as one of the last intact Confederate formations at the end of the war.....


I agree with you, particularly that is stayed together after the battles at Franklin and Nashville (should be required reading for how not to handle an army). Though I do think that the Union's Army of the Potomac could give the Army of the Tennessee a run for its money in terms of different commanders and reverses, as at least for the first two years of the war it was worse off generally speaking (pun intended).

< Message edited by Lovejoy -- 4/27/2017 5:41:25 PM >

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 10096
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 6:24:44 PM   
jwolf

 

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quote:

... it was worse off generally speaking (pun intended).


That is a nasty one!

(in reply to Lovejoy)
Post #: 10097
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 6:56:16 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		My family used to live on a property which was a campsite for the Army of Tennessee right before the Battle of Nashville. Every once in a while, we'd find a mini-ball or some other detritus (though nothing of any real significance, unfortunately).

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to jwolf)
Post #: 10098
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 9:10:41 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Joined: 9/11/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

My family used to live on a property which was a campsite for the Army of Tennessee right before the Battle of Nashville. Every once in a while, we'd find a mini-ball or some other detritus (though nothing of any real significance, unfortunately).



Kewl... I live near Shiloh. One of my favorite local stories is: A Yankee solider went to a nearby church during service. He walked in and sat down, moments later they shot him then took his body into the woods and buried him. A few hours later they went and dug him up..... they had forgotten to take his shoes... etc...etc.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/27/2017 9:12:14 PM >

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 10099
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/27/2017 11:58:03 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		MakeeLearn apparently new about the kamikazes before I did. :)

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 10100
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/28/2017 12:01:42 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		7/8/44

Fun House: Three Allied armies have finally closed on isolated, battered elements of the Japanese army on Luzon. Tomorrow will see three attacks.

Peep Show: Death Star will suddenly move back north, escorting a TF carrying engineers to Orchid Island.

DEI: Kamikazes make their first appearance. 10 Zero 5s target merchantmen unloading the last of an infantry division at Ternate. I had good CAP, but it was tuckered out after manhandling enemy LRCAP or sweeps. Three xAPs take a kami hit apiece and have moderate damage.

John has lost quite a lot of top-end fighter over Ternate over the past four or five turns. This is a backwater for me, with single-engine bombers hitting the IJ garrison. But the Allied fighters have performed superbly against the enemy fighters.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/28/2017 12:02:09 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10101
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/28/2017 12:02:50 AM   
MakeeLearn


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Joined: 9/11/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

MakeeLearn apparently new about the kamikazes before I did. :)



My apologies, the post I read was "the Allies are informed" and doing 10 things at once today I took that as you knew. I pulled as quick as I realized you may not have known .

Let the cat out again....

The Kamikaze is here..





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/28/2017 2:19:49 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10102
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/28/2017 1:49:18 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

ushakov has it right.

Following Nashville, the pitiful remnant of the Army of Tennessee withdrew to Mississippi, where General Hood resigned. The Army of Tennessee (by name, with quite a few units detached or melting away, as ushakov noted) then moved east by rail. I think there were gaps in the rail line, specifically at Selma, Alabama, and where Sherman had marched through Georgia. But I think the route included Columbus, Macon and Augusta, GA. Joseph Johnson resumed command as the army moved into North Carolina for the final stages of the war, where it was joined by other fragments of units - I think including troops under D.H. Hill and perhaps William J. Hardee. That "army" surrendered at Bentonville.


The actual surrender was near Durham Station, NC, a bit WNW of the capital of Raleigh -- but not too far from Bentonville, where the Confederate troops fought their last serious battle. By that time, Johnston's forces were called the "Army of the South". He had been made commander of Florida, Georgia, and both Carolinas, and so scraped together what troops he could from a wide area, including the remnants of the once-mighty Army of Tennessee.

BTW, congratulations on saving the USS Pennsylvania!

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10103
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/28/2017 1:59:48 AM   
Lowpe


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I feel your pain on having SAG not reacting! Part of what makes the game great.


Pakse is a fairly critical base. Kudos on taking it for next to nothing.

How are the plane losses doing daily? You mention savaging LRCAP?

Interesting force magnifier in having Miri and Manila...fuel and a relatively big shipyard. Makes me wonder about the other close by shipyards.

I got to thinking the 17 divisions you report on having in the greater Luzon area, the success of your Burma Push, the relative strength the Chinese have, and the long convoluted lines that Japan has.

My guess is you are going to go for the Islands around Okinawa, and eventually Okinawa after it has been isolated for a while. The Formosa move is simply being opportunistic/diversionary.

From Okinawa you will have complete freedom to attack the Chinese, Kyushu, Kochi, Honshu, or Korean coast; savage western Honshu Kyushu by air, move on the Japanese Islands.

All of those islands can be built up to level 4,5 or 6 runways I think.

From a Japanese viewpoint, Okinawa is more difficult to use kamikazes/land based air to defend than say Formosa.

Of course I am probably all wet.








(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 10104
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/28/2017 3:33:47 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		7/8/44

Air Losses: John's best fighter frames have been beaten up at Ternate the past three or four turns, with today being the most lopsided.

In battles elsewhere for the past many months, the first round of an air battle between, say, Corsairs and Franks, results in fairly even loss ratios, say 1.5:1 in favor of the Allies. Then the following sweeps by fighters, whether Corsair, P-38 or P-47, usually scores a much better ration, sometimes 3:1 or 4:1.

But Ternate has been going against John's fighters at high ratios, like 7:1 or more, in the opening round. My best guess is that this could be a pilot quality issue.




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(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 10105
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/28/2017 11:03:32 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe



I feel your pain on having SAG not reacting! Part of what makes the game great.


Pakse is a fairly critical base. Kudos on taking it for next to nothing.

How are the plane losses doing daily? You mention savaging LRCAP?

Interesting force magnifier in having Miri and Manila...fuel and a relatively big shipyard. Makes me wonder about the other close by shipyards.

I got to thinking the 17 divisions you report on having in the greater Luzon area, the success of your Burma Push, the relative strength the Chinese have, and the long convoluted lines that Japan has.

My guess is you are going to go for the Islands around Okinawa, and eventually Okinawa after it has been isolated for a while. The Formosa move is simply being opportunistic/diversionary.

From Okinawa you will have complete freedom to attack the Chinese, Kyushu, Kochi, Honshu, or Korean coast; savage western Honshu Kyushu by air, move on the Japanese Islands.

All of those islands can be built up to level 4,5 or 6 runways I think.

From a Japanese viewpoint, Okinawa is more difficult to use kamikazes/land based air to defend than say Formosa.

Of course I am probably all wet.




I have found that SAGs will only react if under a patrol order.

If you're guarding a base with them give them a one hex patrol pattern in the base hex.

If you're looking for an intercept send them to the intercept point either with a 1 hex patrol pattern or a random pattern based around the target hex.

If you're headed for a mid-ocean intercept attempt without a patrol order and miss guess on the correct intercept hex, no interception will occur.

If you're headed for a mid-ocean intercept attempt with a patrol order and miss guess on the correct intercept hex, your patrol reaction range may still make the intercept happen.


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 10106
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/28/2017 11:48:32 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

7/8/44

Air Losses: John's best fighter frames have been beaten up at Ternate the past three or four turns, with today being the most lopsided.

In battles elsewhere for the past many months, the first round of an air battle between, say, Corsairs and Franks, results in fairly even loss ratios, say 1.5:1 in favor of the Allies. Then the following sweeps by fighters, whether Corsair, P-38 or P-47, usually scores a much better ration, sometimes 3:1 or 4:1.

But Ternate has been going against John's fighters at high ratios, like 7:1 or more, in the opening round. My best guess is that this could be a pilot quality issue.





That is really out of the world results, and in fact probably the biggest development as it goes to mindset. I had thought Japan was doing significantly better in their air war. If it is LRCAP, the pilots morale, fatigue, plane fatigue, are probably all sky high in addition to the pilot quality getting poorer.

Were where those planes over Luzon? To be honest, those fighters should only be there for a one off raid, and even then the SR2 & 3 planes will have difficulty getting back to the Formosa/Okinawa line that is the most likely axis of advance for the Allies.

I guess their loss helped the first kamikaze strike of a whopping 10 planes get thru, but boy those are simply gifts to the Allies. A lot like the loss of 100 torpedo planes against the Deathstar a few days back. Japan simply cannot be so extravagant with their planes for no return.

How is John using the Nick D NF? I see him losing 4 a day pretty reliably and I am at loss to understand how.

And one final question, what does recon tell you about the fighter strength on Formosa and Okinawa area?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10107
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/28/2017 12:20:51 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		John has been using some Nicks lately on small raids (sweeps, I think) against Luangprabang, where they keep bumping their heads against some good Spit VIIIs.

Formosa is now loaded with fighters, but few strike aircraft. I'm thinking John is preparing for the inevitable 4EB assault, but I'm waiting to get Aparri, so that my sweeps will be at a reasonable range. (All those fighters could be kamikazes, but more likely there for CAP). Okinawa also has a lot of fighters.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 10108
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/28/2017 12:30:23 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Peep Show: For OpSec reasons, I won't disclose the original (and still possible/probable) Peep Show target. But I will say that there are three Peep Show possibilities: The original target, Formosa, and Hainan Island, and it's possible I'll hit two or all three.

US Army divisions are prepping for beachheads at each of those locations. Prepping for the beachhead assault is key, simply to minimize disablements. Once a beachhead is taken, reinforcements can land without disablements (everyone knows this, except some newer players).

Formosa is probably the most enticing target, because it's strongly defended but probably not uber defended (I want to hit enemy troops), it's airfields are proximate to Japan for future bombing, and it's also close to Luzon's friendly airfields and ports.

But if Formosa ends up not being a great option (unlikely since Peep Show will commence in a few weeks), two divisions are prepping for a beachheast at Hainan. That also has open terrain and would be subject to 4EB raids.

The original Peep Show target is a good one. That location was chosen nine months back. SigInt has consistently told me what I wanted to see - it's defended, but not well. Things may change, but the clock is winding down now.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10109
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/28/2017 12:31:12 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
(All those fighters could be kamikazes, but more likely there for CAP).


I have often wondered what category FB fall into on the recon reports? Are they fighter or bomber. Now I wonder if the kamikazes show up as fighter or bomber?

Kamikaze fighter squadrons, can be used to escort I recall. I tried using them in that mission, hoping they would ram their planes into Jugs but no luck. They just died.

Tough mission for Nick Ds.





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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10110
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