Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A)

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) Page: <<   < prev  33 34 [35] 36 37   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/3/2017 7:22:41 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Don't forget some night naval torpedo runs...they are within range if you have the squadron(s). Start depleting his ammunition.

Night Naval Attacks of any form will deplete his AA ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1021
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/3/2017 12:02:34 PM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

If the hits are DC's, generally, the sub has to go home after the 2nd one ... so 12 hits ... maybe 2 or 3 subs have RTB. a good thing.

Losing Jakes already ... so he is LRCAPing his advance TF's ... that first TF is 10 hexes out from Saipan, 11 from Guam.

A good tactic is to be sure you have your subs in the same hex that you attack. They will recover a LOT of pilots ...

Sorry, I should be more precise.

The hits to which I was referring are from Judys, Jills, and Kates. All my TBs are set to ASW but I guess the DBs didn't want them to have all of the fun. However some of the reported hits are multiple.

I just checked Ships Sunk and the SS Herring shows a sunk by a 250 kg bomb this turn. I hope that stays.

Only had one Allied sub hit with one DC this turn.

I am also losing Bettys, Mavises and an occasional Judy-C to CAP. This turn I lost a Betty at 117,95 which is the large flotilla ten hexes east of Guam.

Right now I have six subs patrolling just east of the Marianas. I will add some more.

Thanks.


_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 1022
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/3/2017 12:08:27 PM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

If you are going all in then this is the time for all your midget subs and whatever MTB you have. 10,000+ supply and a level 1 port (undamaged) are the requirements. You want to create them the day before you use them.

If you have MGB, I recommend forming them at Tokyo and converting them to MTB status for later use.

Mines and CD guns....wherever...they will take a toll on the minesweepers. Sub dropped mines are great, powerful and strong.

+1 on saving your pilots.

Move some AR/AD/AS/AKE/AG and Naval Support to the Bonins & Ulithi. Might save some ships that way. Oilers and and fuel there too. Japanese CV run out of fuel so darn fast.

Don't forget some night naval torpedo runs...they are within range if you have the squadron(s). Start depleting his ammunition.

Thanks Lowpe.

I have four MG/TB available. The are now on their way to Tokyo. Probably to late for this party. Midget Subs! Now we are having fun. I'll give them a try.

I have two CMs at Guam ready to lay and scoot.

At Iwo I have five AOs, six AKEs, and two AGs. In the group of TFs sitting at Agrihan waiting to make a dash to Iwo are two ASs and another AKE. I have two ADs on the way to Iwo, three-four days out.

I have eighty Naval Support at Iwo with another 240 unloading tomorrow.


_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1023
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/3/2017 12:58:18 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

If the hits are DC's, generally, the sub has to go home after the 2nd one ... so 12 hits ... maybe 2 or 3 subs have RTB. a good thing.

Losing Jakes already ... so he is LRCAPing his advance TF's ... that first TF is 10 hexes out from Saipan, 11 from Guam.

A good tactic is to be sure you have your subs in the same hex that you attack. They will recover a LOT of pilots ...

Sorry, I should be more precise.

The hits to which I was referring are from Judys, Jills, and Kates. All my TBs are set to ASW but I guess the DBs didn't want them to have all of the fun. However some of the reported hits are multiple.

I just checked Ships Sunk and the SS Herring shows a sunk by a 250 kg bomb this turn. I hope that stays.

Only had one Allied sub hit with one DC this turn.

I am also losing Bettys, Mavises and an occasional Judy-C to CAP. This turn I lost a Betty at 117,95 which is the large flotilla ten hexes east of Guam.

Right now I have six subs patrolling just east of the Marianas. I will add some more.

Thanks.


Ahh, 250kg bombs are about equivalent to DC for damage, so same estimate. You always want sunk, but for today, OOS will count just as good.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 1024
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/3/2017 1:55:25 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Careful you don't exhaust, damage, tire your strike planes on the KB prior to the big days ahead. Judy can be a bear to repair.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 1025
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 12:27:18 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Careful you don't exhaust, damage, tire your strike planes on the KB prior to the big days ahead. Judy can be a bear to repair.

I hear you, but if I back them off, more of this is going to happen.

Between a rock and a hard place.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1026
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 12:28:58 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
50 fewer planes in the KB ...

Depending upon her sailing speed and damage, I would sail her to Iwo, off load her planes (A6M for sure) and send them back into the fight ... she won't need any planes for a while ...

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 5/4/2017 12:55:56 AM >


_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 1027
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 12:38:42 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Ouch. Sometimes the damage is really low....maybe?




(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 1028
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 12:57:06 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
Junyo class? take a miracle. CVE with window-dressing. I've almost had them sink on speed runs they are so frail ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1029
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 1:08:30 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Just looking at the glass half full!

How is the Japanese massing going? How much will you have assembled?

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 1030
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 2:23:50 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
yeah, but i can still dream of a KB full of Taiho and Shokaku class instead of Junyo and Zuiho!





_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1031
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 3:08:19 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
How many LB fighters do you have there now? 1st line fighters ... Frank, Tojo, George/Jack? Then what about anti-ship bombers? Jill/Judy are far and away the best. Helen/Sally will do, but even with the right skill pilots they don't work nearly as well as Jill/Judy for me. Lilly are ok against all soft targets ... Frances can work wonders at night if you have them, if not Netties are great night NavAttack ... burn a lot of AA, and with high EXP crews you can and will get hits ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 1032
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 7:18:04 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

How is the Japanese massing going? How much will you have assembled?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

How many LB fighters do you have there now? 1st line fighters ... Frank, Tojo, George/Jack? Then what about anti-ship bombers? Jill/Judy are far and away the best. Helen/Sally will do, but even with the right skill pilots they don't work nearly as well as Jill/Judy for me. Lilly are ok against all soft targets ... Frances can work wonders at night if you have them, if not Netties are great night NavAttack ... burn a lot of AA, and with high EXP crews you can and will get hits ...

On the Marianas I have three Zero groups, two Kate one Judy unit, one Tojo unit, three Betty units and some search. My limitation is Aviation Support. I have enough for one, maybe two more units. This wasn't planed this way but Junyo's units will go here.

On the Bonins I have two Zero units, a Kate unit, Judy unit, a Nell unit, a Betty unit, an Ann unit, and some search.

At Yokohama I have a Zero unit, a Val unit and a Tojo unit.

I have not considered putting Georges or Jacks (no Franks yet) out on these islands because of their SR and if I gather correctly, Lowpe does not do this either. I could have some over here in a couple of days, but I don't know. It seems like with these guys you would reach the point of diminishing returns rather quickly.

Lowpe, I am not sure if this answers your question.

Thanks Guys.


_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 1033
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 9:15:56 AM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline
I'm reading last developments of this AAR with great interest.

I wan't employ Jakes on submarines, NEVER! if it does not have any historical plausibility.

What i was most disturbed of, is the implication that VERY high NavSearch is able to spot submarines regardless of hight (as it may result from the first screenshots). Indeed?

El Lobo, you can put on a great and much proficous fight here! Your naval search and anticipated detection were great, gold worth, as well as fortification and preparation of the outpost islands.

My defensive strategy would be to have the greatest number of available airfields on all the islands.

I don't think he can knock down all of them.

My prediction is that Rio is going to loose a great, unsustainable number of planes. He cannot avoid sweeping-bombarding your airfields there, this shall cost him very darely.
I'd wait for him to strike first...and second and third possibly...
He's going to loose this air battle, almost for sure.

You can rotate and replenish from HI, he cannot.

Gees, this is summer 1943, is US any close to the number of carriers needed for an on- all frontal onslaught?!!?, in no way. Maybe Rio counted on some surprise, or to find you unbalanced?

Maybe this is all a big ruse and deceptive manouver, real objective somewhere else, but where, how this possible?

Difficult for me to understand Rio here....


P.S. added: US sub threat is disturbing, but you seem having deployed great ASW defense and screening, and in any case you've plenty of airbase where to redeploy if needed.

2nd P.S.: maybe he (Rio) is counting on the superiority of the Hellcat to break through and put down opposition?


He may count on naval bombarding to neutralize the airfields, and here midgets and mines may come in help (BTW, how many old BattleWagons is he left?).
Even so, I still see this as an excessive risk by Rio's side.




< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 5/4/2017 9:27:41 AM >

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 1034
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 9:28:55 AM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline
I'd say even PURE FOLLY by allies side and Command.

Days shall say

< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 5/4/2017 9:29:36 AM >

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 1035
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 11:15:35 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo

At Yokohama I have a Zero unit, a Val unit and a Tojo unit.

I have not considered putting Georges or Jacks (no Franks yet) out on these islands because of their SR and if I gather correctly, Lowpe does not do this either.

Thanks Guys. [/size]


For every rule there is a time to break them. When I was attacked in the Marianas I used all my
Georges, which was the only fighter I had at the time (no Frank).

For you to win this fight you will need everything. I think the only advanced fighter you have is George right now?

Until he takes an island, and repairs the runway, the Allies are limited to Hellcats and F4Fs from a limited source. But once a base is taken, then the Corsairs, Jugs and Lightning will appear. No base, no rearming of ships. No PT boats.

You have high forts, but there are a lot of bases to cover, it is early, and I suspect the Allies have nearly perfect information from SigInt.

Communication is imperfect, so I don't know what your goals are. If you want to hit the invasion beach with a massed KB strike that is one thing. If you are trying to stop him, prevent bases from falling that is another. Plus everything in between and beyond those two aspirations.

When I was attacked in like manner, I believe I had stuffed the Marianas with over 800 planes and it wasn't nearly enough. The Allies had used SigInt to attack my weakest bases...and avoided the strong bases for the entire game. You are in a different position than me in that you have the KB present, but I have to tell you the Islands are very vulnerable to surface bombardments, and they are in a line making naval strikes difficult to coordinate.

All I can say is you should be trying to bleed them every day you can. I wouldn't hesitate to race in sacrificial three destroyer squadrons now (I am very fuzzy at where everything is). Slow him down, expend his ammo, eat up his torpedoes, absorb his plane strikes, get his ships to react, collide, buy time for you to mass more planes, ships, and troops in the Marianas. Night strikes. Count hexes and pick off his SAGs that react forward to your destroyers. Daytime long distance torpedo strikes at high altitude escorted by your best fighters (poor mans cv sweep), massed I boat attacks (I would send in everything all at once).

The early sacrificial attacks will aid the later attacks, and there is always hope something gets thru.

To the degree you use some of the tactics, or not, well that is a function of what your goals are and as I said I am unclear on them, as well, really on the tactical situation. I can't stress how much I don't know: pilot training, planes, pools, ground troops, supply levels, naval concentration, artillery, mines, cd guns, supply, prep levels, HQs. All of this lack of knowledge really hamstrings all my suggestions.

Everybody that offers advice is using a ton of assumptions that may or may not be true.

However, to be honest, instead of the Allies being bleeded as they approach on a very easily identified axis, it is Japan that had a Carrier drop out. Force preservation is not a goal with the Allies at least with their sub fleet.

This fight will take all of your JFB cunning, and planning no matter what your goals are.






< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/4/2017 11:16:25 AM >

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 1036
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 11:39:22 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Another AAR you can read, about the 1943 Allied offensive would be CR and John III, where the Allies invaded Sumatra and ultimately Japan forced them off after a horrendously long and grueling campaign.

I believe the Allies lost many divisions, but they are still back on the offensive in mid 1944 having recently taken Manila.

To say this attack is pure folly on the Allies part is not correct.



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/4/2017 11:40:01 AM >

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1037
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 12:46:02 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo

At Yokohama I have a Zero unit, a Val unit and a Tojo unit.

I have not considered putting Georges or Jacks (no Franks yet) out on these islands because of their SR and if I gather correctly, Lowpe does not do this either.

Thanks Guys. [/size]


For every rule there is a time to break them. When I was attacked in the Marianas I used all my
Georges, which was the only fighter I had at the time (no Frank).

For you to win this fight you will need everything. I think the only advanced fighter you have is George right now?

Until he takes an island, and repairs the runway, the Allies are limited to Hellcats and F4Fs from a limited source. But once a base is taken, then the Corsairs, Jugs and Lightning will appear. No base, no rearming of ships. No PT boats.

You have high forts, but there are a lot of bases to cover, it is early, and I suspect the Allies have nearly perfect information from SigInt.

Communication is imperfect, so I don't know what your goals are. If you want to hit the invasion beach with a massed KB strike that is one thing. If you are trying to stop him, prevent bases from falling that is another. Plus everything in between and beyond those two aspirations.

When I was attacked in like manner, I believe I had stuffed the Marianas with over 800 planes and it wasn't nearly enough. The Allies had used SigInt to attack my weakest bases...and avoided the strong bases for the entire game. You are in a different position than me in that you have the KB present, but I have to tell you the Islands are very vulnerable to surface bombardments, and they are in a line making naval strikes difficult to coordinate.

All I can say is you should be trying to bleed them every day you can. I wouldn't hesitate to race in sacrificial three destroyer squadrons now (I am very fuzzy at where everything is). Slow him down, expend his ammo, eat up his torpedoes, absorb his plane strikes, get his ships to react, collide, buy time for you to mass more planes, ships, and troops in the Marianas. Night strikes. Count hexes and pick off his SAGs that react forward to your destroyers. Daytime long distance torpedo strikes at high altitude escorted by your best fighters (poor mans cv sweep), massed I boat attacks (I would send in everything all at once).

The early sacrificial attacks will aid the later attacks, and there is always hope something gets thru.

To the degree you use some of the tactics, or not, well that is a function of what your goals are and as I said I am unclear on them, as well, really on the tactical situation. I can't stress how much I don't know: pilot training, planes, pools, ground troops, supply levels, naval concentration, artillery, mines, cd guns, supply, prep levels, HQs. All of this lack of knowledge really hamstrings all my suggestions.

Everybody that offers advice is using a ton of assumptions that may or may not be true.

However, to be honest, instead of the Allies being bleeded as they approach on a very easily identified axis, it is Japan that had a Carrier drop out. Force preservation is not a goal with the Allies at least with their sub fleet.

This fight will take all of your JFB cunning, and planning no matter what your goals are.






+1

Either you are in or you are not. It may be too late now to be in ... it appears you have something like ~250 aircraft LBA ... far too few to hold against the allied forces coming. As for AV, just like in the early war, you have no choice but to overstack. The risks are great, you will likely have to abandon a fair number of aircraft, but ...

The way the allies play is to amass everything they have and then strike. The IJ players tend to try to hold everything, which plays into the allied plan. To counter the allies, the IJ has no choice but to either match the allies or cede the field (they can nip at the edges as they cede, but cede they will). Any other choice results in huge losses.

I was not exagerating what was needed for LBA to hold the marianas... 20 airgroups minimum, with at least 15 more in the Bonins to cycle in. The allies have that much massed against you. It means stripping almost every other theatre bare ... the risk involved with choosing to fight

or

you choose to blood their nose a bit, but cede the marianas to them and all of the units therein. Yes, there are some fights, but the end is already determined. Truk is also marginalized, etc... sadly in terms of strategy there is very little middle ground.

As lowpe states, we on the sidelines have imperfect intel, in all cases do not know your full intentions, and of course it is your game. We do not have to live with outcomes.

Every decision has ramifications, but do not think that any fight is final.

Personally, I hate having to fight in the Marianans (like Burma, I hate it. The terrain is terrible and fraught with challenges, in this case the layout of the isles and proximity to other islands). However, in this case, he is coming far too early in my opinion. Right now, as in every turn, you need to evaluate and decide. My caution is to not underestimate what is needed to accomplish your goals. IJ players art this point tend to over estimate what they can do based upon 1942 results in battles. This is 43 and the allies are far stronger on a unit basis.

Based upon what you have shared, you have only enough assets in place to at best bloody his nose ... and only with luck. As lowpe states, you have only parity in air power now ... once he takes a base, he will have superiority within 2 days on numbers alone ignoring plane quality.

BTW: choosing to bloody his nose means far different tactics than what has been already discussed ... KB needs to stay farther afield, come in for a strike and then move back out ... that would be a typical tactic. The skill is to choose when to move in, you have to anticipate that carefully 1 or 2 days in advance (just like everything else in this game, the ability to anticipate is crucial).

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1038
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 1:29:24 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Worst case, you are caught off guard and decide to cede the battleground.

You want to fly splinters of your divisions, cd gun units that aren't static out, to avoid a huge pp and delay in rebuilding them.

Allies will now threaten Hokkaido, Bonins, Ulithi, Luzon area.

B29 groups arrive in 2/44...months ahead of your Army fighter expansion, Nick D NF normal date, AA upgrades and reinforcements.

Allied long legged recon will start snooping on the HI. He will see plane builds, task forces, etc. Your plane r&d will be in serious jeopardy...

The air war over the HI will most likely be greatly accelerated. When the Frank A comes online in a month, you need 500+ production a month. You will need every fighter, fighter bomber, rufe and rex and pete, irving-s.

Give the Allies a month to clean up Marianas to the point they can stage more forward attacks, and they will do the same thing again at Hokkaido, Bonins, Ulithi and west to Luzon after 2 months prep.

You will be forced to keep the KB near the Bonins...giving the Allies almost a free hand to attack SRA etc if they elect to do so. However, with such a focus on the Marianas, the Allies may ignore everywhere but Burma.

But the game isn't over, turtle hard and mass for the next invasion. Draw a line 20 hexes around the HI and really concentrate on that. Delay everywhere else. Finish taking China. Aggressively bleed the Allied air forces everywhere you can. You still have the KB, and that can be a powerful delaying force, especially if you get in good alpha strike on his invasion and keep your forces intact.

That is the cede option and how it plays out I think...not the end of the world. Fight on your terms, not his.

Just realize everything grows. If you need the KB plus 1000 planes to defend the Marianas now, then to defend Hokkaido you will need 1500 planes plus, plus the KB. Allied growth is relentless.


(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 1039
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 1:32:02 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Worst case, you are caught off guard and decide to cede the battleground.

You want to fly splinters of your divisions, cd gun units that aren't static out, to avoid a huge pp and delay in rebuilding them.

Allies will now threaten Hokkaido, Bonins, Ulithi, Luzon area.

B29 groups arrive in 2/44...months ahead of your Army fighter expansion, Nick D NF normal date, AA upgrades and reinforcements.

Allied long legged recon will start snooping on the HI. He will see plane builds, task forces, etc. Your plane r&d will be in serious jeopardy...

The air war over the HI will most likely be greatly accelerated. When the Frank A comes online in a month, you need 500+ production a month. You will need every fighter, fighter bomber, rufe and rex and pete, irving-s.

Give the Allies a month to clean up Marianas to the point they can stage more forward attacks, and they will do the same thing again at Hokkaido, Bonins, Ulithi and west to Luzon after 2 months prep.

You will be forced to keep the KB near the Bonins...giving the Allies almost a free hand to attack SRA etc if they elect to do so. However, with such a focus on the Marianas, the Allies may ignore everywhere but Burma.

But the game isn't over, turtle hard and mass for the next invasion. Draw a line 20 hexes around the HI and really concentrate on that. Delay everywhere else. Finish taking China. Aggressively bleed the Allied air forces everywhere you can. You still have the KB, and that can be a powerful delaying force, especially if you get in good alpha strike on his invasion and keep your forces intact.

That is the cede option and how it plays out I think...not the end of the world. Fight on your terms, not his.

Just realize everything grows. If you need the KB plus 1000 planes to defend the Marianas now, then to defend Hokkaido you will need 1500 planes plus, plus the KB. Allied growth is relentless.



+1

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1040
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 2:23:02 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Now, reasons why this is a good opportunity to fight all out:

You are fighting inside your land based search, outside his.

You don't have to worry about heavy bombers.

Allies have no bases, so no rearming, no pt boats, no land based air at all.

Allies have a long supply line, a long way to go for damaged ships.

High forts means fighting will last a few days at least? Allies will have to devote a fair number of surface ships to shore bombardments.

Allies don't have Corsairs on their carriers.

You can resupply, reinforce, cycle in an out, have a shorter supply line.

Allied fighter production is weak at this point of the game.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 1041
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/4/2017 2:37:34 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Went back and checked, so this is a scenario 2 game.

You should have many extra tank divisions, and should able to really develop a strong defense of the Hokkaido/Bonins/Daito/Luzon Line no matter what happens.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1042
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/5/2017 12:21:55 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline
Pax and Lowpe.

First of all, thank you very much for taking the time and effort to help me out.

Due to our time difference, your posts above got to me in the late evening, my time. In most cases I would be ready to send, or would have sent the turn to Rio, but after reading your posts, and given the gravity of the situation, I informed Rio that I am going to take a couple of days break to work on it.

I can feel your frustration in not knowing my intentions or exactly what I have in the area. One of the problems is that not having experience, I do not realize all of the subtleties of the game that you guys now take for granted.

For various reasons, most of which you point-out, and the "game playing" experience, I have decided that this is the time to go all in. We will take a stand here, fight to the bloody-end, and hope for the best.

Over the next couple of days I will graphically list for you what I have and what I can bring. A lot of challenges for me, a lot to learn in a short time, but a lot of fun and excitement.

Thanks again.


_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1043
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/5/2017 3:23:11 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Now, reasons why this is a good opportunity to fight all out:

You are fighting inside your land based search, outside his.

You don't have to worry about heavy bombers.

Allies have no bases, so no rearming, no pt boats, no land based air at all.

Allies have a long supply line, a long way to go for damaged ships.

High forts means fighting will last a few days at least? Allies will have to devote a fair number of surface ships to shore bombardments.

Allies don't have Corsairs on their carriers.

You can resupply, reinforce, cycle in an out, have a shorter supply line.

Allied fighter production is weak at this point of the game.

+1

Which is all why I would put up a fight here. As I say, I think he is too early, but only if I am prepared and able to use ALL of the IJ forces. Every ship, almost every air group, 5 - 6 ID's for counter ... The allies are coming big, you have to meet them with full strength or just snipe at them. Meeting them halfway will cost you a lot ...

Don't know the timing now, but don't go in halfway is all I can say. Sniping is not going in halfway, it means sitting back and then coming in hard and fast and right back out. Timing moves, like everything else, hard to do .. even in a sandbox where you know what the allies are doing!

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1044
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/5/2017 3:23:40 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Went back and checked, so this is a scenario 2 game.

You should have many extra tank divisions, and should able to really develop a strong defense of the Hokkaido/Bonins/Daito/Luzon Line no matter what happens.

Also means extra ARM will be needed ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1045
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/5/2017 3:53:45 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo

Pax and Lowpe.

First of all, thank you very much for taking the time and effort to help me out.

Due to our time difference, your posts above got to me in the late evening, my time. In most cases I would be ready to send, or would have sent the turn to Rio, but after reading your posts, and given the gravity of the situation, I informed Rio that I am going to take a couple of days break to work on it.

I can feel your frustration in not knowing my intentions or exactly what I have in the area. One of the problems is that not having experience, I do not realize all of the subtleties of the game that you guys now take for granted.

For various reasons, most of which you point-out, and the "game playing" experience, I have decided that this is the time to go all in. We will take a stand here, fight to the bloody-end, and hope for the best.

Over the next couple of days I will graphically list for you what I have and what I can bring. A lot of challenges for me, a lot to learn in a short time, but a lot of fun and excitement.

Thanks again.


Well, first off, good luck.

We're not frustrated ... just cautioning you that you need to take our suggestions carefully. Integrate them into your plan. And no matter what we suggest, it is still you because we can't control the clicks.

And let's be honest here, the clicks matter a LOT at this point. One hex here, one there is all the difference.

This is all about force ratios. First you sit down and list out what he is bringing: every carrier, most BB's, etc. It's the carriers that matter here though. Guess high on the Hellcat count, assume all fighters are F6F. Count up how many that is. i posted the total aircraft curve for the allies recently somewhere ... call it 1600 aircraft 7/43. you want double that, at least, to face him. Now can you get that many? Doesn't count your ASW patrols or your NavSearch patrols. Literally it means almost every airgroup you have. Now the million dollar question: they need to be there 1 day before you use them because air groups will rarely attack the same day they move. On top of this you want another few hundred 'spares' sitting in Iwo ...

Ships: all you have and then be sure you have converted Bonins into an emergency repair base. Naval HQ with all of your AR,AD,AS types there to help repair. Shuffle your CS's there as well. They are your best ASW escorts you can buy, and you plan to need them. Ships are going to get hurt. Bad.

Amphibs. I would want 4-6 ID's in the Bonins. You have to spread them out due to stacking. I usually build up Chichi-jima to port 3 in case this happens. port 3 is important because you get sub nets ... allies have nothing to penetrate sub nets, so hurt ships are safe from subs in port 3. Also, this help with load/unload of these ID's ...

That's the setup for the fight I would use in broad strokes. The more aircraft I can get, the better. I tend to go over board as numbers really matter in air combat.

As for combat, this is what I would do. (Remember though, this is sandbox and AI so listen to Lowpe or others carefully if they suggest otherwise.) Netties on night attack beginning 1 day before they are in range. LOTS of them. 4 full groups if I can and alternate days with 4 other groups. So 1 night on, 1 night rest. +100 aircraft) They should get 4 - 5 attacks. They should collect 2 - 4 ships per attack, mostly trash ships, BUT they will be burning up the allies AA. You can get really lucky and collect an amphib or two.

Once they are within normal LBA range (~10 hex), you have two choices attack or defend. For me, this depends a bit upon what the allies do as they also have two choices: attack or defend. If I attack, then the KB provides LRCAP and then I set the attack to short range 2- 4 hex. So, the attack only launches if they come in close. Now, this can be spoofed if the allies suspect (every tactic has a counter) which is why the LRCAP is in place. Can't afford to have the air bases torched. If I defend, I'm praying that the amphibs are not making a rush in ... I rarely use the KB on the first day of attack. Which way? depends upon what I know of the player and that is telegraphed by where his ships are. you know the movement limits of his ships ...

That's as far as I can go at this point too many variables ...




< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 5/5/2017 3:56:36 AM >


_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 1046
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/5/2017 4:07:10 AM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline
I want screenshots and in-depth narration of the events over the next few weeks! Not just the combat report! Looking forward to it.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 1047
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/5/2017 8:28:08 AM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline
So let's see:

if the Allies kept all of their starting carriers, so then they should come with those six plus 4 (?) Essex? So 10 or less main carriers, plus some 4 CVLs maybe, Escort Carriers not included? Am I wrong with the count?

Uh oh, forgot the British, the RN; two or three Indomitable class in addition, for some 40 Martlets at their best?

this accounts for 380 or less of a mix Hellcats/Wildcats (maybe all HEllcats by I greatly doubt it) available for the strike.

Your numbers are already more than 200 fighters embarked, plus 100 land based, and some 150-200 incoming, or other wise rallying at the Bonins, or at Ulithy and Philippines, ready for the turn to be cleared

I don't know how many land based fighter groups are now in the islands , but even if not that many you really have the time to bring in more and more (Rio cannot).


Key point is a lot of Air support, and on as many islands as possible, I think. And you really can amass many other air support units in Philippines or Bonin or Carolines/Ulithi ready to be air lifted to the Marianas.

BTW, the 20 mm MG AA starting with the Kwantung Army can be airlifted... they add to the count.

I assume all major islands are very well and strongly garrisoned, or are to be become in the very short term (I repeat my self, that I see this move by Rio as extremely bold, dangerous and risky by his side).

I still keep my advice that the greatest number of available airfields on all islands is a power multiplier on your behalf.

As I wrote before, my approach would be to let him air strike first and even second and third if possible and applicable, to well attrite his fighter force.
To this end, I'd

- try to ground part of the attack groups from the flattops, keeping only those needed to ASW duties, to enlarge the fighter complements, depending on your pilots pool availability.

- position the carrier fleets at safety distance - but not too much distant - from the islands, and place strong LRCAP on them

I don't know if you have time for this, now that your carriers are already at combat position west of Marianas, but I'd strongly check the feasabilty of fast retiring the carriers to where they can receive additional fighters, at any suitable time. This by itself may double your embarked fighters availabilty, and even triple if you have enough planes and trained pilots.

May be this be done at Manila, if enough built up and supplied (I don't have the map open right now, so cannot see and check the distances)?


It is agreed with Lowpe and Pax that numbers here count, but the number of fighters you can bring in the battle could even, match and easily surpass those of Rio.


Battleships: he may well have retained some 6 of the glorious Oldies + 4, 5 or 6 South Dakotas/New Mexicos? Plus some ipotethically 3 Queen Elizabeth/Sovereign class? This is a tremendous punch, Heavy Cruisers not included, nor the great number of CLs and DDs.

My guess is that he's going straight to bombard your airfields and troops, but unless Rio's gifted with steel nerves, he'll still need to sweep and airfield attack first ..- and then the carnage shall start..YYIIKES!!

I'd bring close ALL THE NAVY and surface assets

I foresee the possibility of the most epic surface clash on the shores of the Marianas, where your fleet could enjoy of effective air cover-CAP/LRCAP. Where the weight of Yamato and Musashi may be felt. IJN may be outnumbered, and a great carnage ensuing. But I think I'd go for that, may this possibility arise.


Have you already rallied the midgets? The ROs? Hurry up El Lobo!

I'm eager to see the results of night attacks by the Betties, as suggested by Pax.

But as soon as they get in range of the US embarked airplanes, I'd rebase them in the Bonins/Ulithi.

I'm still not ruling out an assault also on Marcus Island, whose closeness my greatly aid Rio in his quest for the Marianas.


Could it be said here, BANZAI?






(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 1048
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/5/2017 1:23:36 PM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline
Thanks again Pax. A long list of stuff to do, working on it.

Thanks for you comments adarbrauner.

Just one thing. Having been friends with Rio most of my life, I would never under estimate any endeavor that Rio undertakes. Just like in RL, what ever he has planned here is well thought-out and will be well executed.

But, let's see if we can bloody his nose.

Anachro, welcome.

I prefer screen-shots rather than CRs so I will try my best. BTW, one of my best friends is from near Boston, Sharon, and now lives in LA. Go figure.


_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 1049
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bra... - 5/5/2017 1:29:13 PM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline
In the mean-time, here is some of the last turn.

PACIFIC Jun 21, 1943 Turn 562

When you start the turn and the first thing you see is the screen-shot above, you know it is not going to be a good day. But it could always be worse. If Junyo does not get molested further she should make it to port (5, 25, 3).

We did our first LBA attacks and they were not pretty either. Here are some examples. As you can see, he has some hellacious CAP.

I have switched-out some units.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Saipan at 112,95

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 19

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 8
F4F-4 Wildcat x 170
FM-1 Wildcat x 23
F6F-3 Hellcat x 225

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 8 destroyed, 1 damaged
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Saipan at 112,95

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 41 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 25
B5N1 Kate x 2
D4Y3 Judy x 2
G4M1 Betty x 4

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 8
F4F-4 Wildcat x 166
FM-1 Wildcat x 22
F6F-3 Hellcat x 225

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
B5N1 Kate: 1 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 3 destroyed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Saipan at 112,95

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 107 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 46 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N1 Kate x 9

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 8
F4F-4 Wildcat x 162
FM-1 Wildcat x 22
F6F-3 Hellcat x 225

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N1 Kate: 4 destroyed

ETC. No Allied losses for the day




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 1050
Page:   <<   < prev  33 34 [35] 36 37   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo (J), vs. Rio Bravo (A) Page: <<   < prev  33 34 [35] 36 37   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.893