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novice help with SEAD - 5/17/2017 8:12:28 AM

Phoenix100

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
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Very grateful if anyone could point me anywhere to deal with two points, or give any tips, thanks.

I've been playing Litani River to try to learn various things. The task is to destroy two suspected SAM sites. The exact location of these sites isn't known, however. So I've tried many ways to get them to light up and then hit them with HARMs but always I end losing 2 or 3 F16s (not the HARM-loaded F16s, which happily fire and kill from way way off, but the planes I send in first to get the sites to light up their radars).

1. If you know where a SAM site is roughly and you have HARM loadouts, what is the most effective tactic for getting the SAM site to reveal itself? What do they do in RL, I wonder? (I guess you're meant to do the same in game).

2. If you know where a SAM site is roughly but you have no HARMS, just conventional-type bombs etc, then what is the best tactic to try to find and destroy the SAM site without loss, or with minimal losses?

I have already searched the threads without finding anything directly on this. Maybe it's too obvious - I can't believe someone hasn't already asked or covered this, but if they have I can't find it, sorry.

Cheers.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 5/17/2017 8:14:31 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/17/2017 8:36:03 AM

willpope697

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If you have access to them using a BoL with MALDs or ITALDs will get them to activate the FCR radar

(in reply to Phoenix100)

Post #: 2

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/17/2017 9:43:41 AM

Phoenix100

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Thanks WillPope, but I have no idea what BoL, MALDS and ITALDs are. I'm guessing I don't have....

(in reply to willpope697)

Post #: 3

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/17/2017 9:57:55 AM

User2

Posts: 118
Joined: 1/14/2016
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quote:

2. If you know where a SAM site is roughly but you have no HARMS, just conventional-type bombs etc

-I have a nice pair of Ju-88 armed to the teeth with dumb bombs against a well-placed s-300 sam system. What should I do?
-Pray a lot, son. Pray a lot.

By the way why not to read wiki. It is informative and full of historical examples.

(in reply to Phoenix100)

Post #: 4

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/17/2017 10:00:30 AM

Phoenix100

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The wiki! Thanks User2, going there now.

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Post #: 5

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/17/2017 11:47:30 AM

Phoenix100

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A supplementary question - do planes with an A-G loadout ever dump it when fired on, to be more agile in order to evade? I haven't noticed that yet, just load heavy planes being hit by SAMs.

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Post #: 6

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/17/2017 12:15:10 PM

Cik

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Joined: 10/5/2016
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there is a doctrine setting that forces jettison while under fire.

i would definitely use it if your primary purpose of your leading edge is just to draw fire.

there are two choices i'd guess, and the reason for this is that recon is probably too hard, especially finding TELs and big rabbit ear radars is probably too hard. but anyway:

the best way to find SAMs is "recon by fire" that is to say, get them to shoot at you. there's two general ways of doing that. 1. you need to be visible, and preferably far enough away so that you have the time to put in some chaff and jink a little bit. so preferably you want the SAM to see you far away. the easiest way to do that is to contrail, because (especially if you are big) he will see you at a decent range with just MK1 eyeball and flip on to try to shoot you.

the second way is to go in very low to maximize radar tracking problems, and get relatively close. this works mostly because the game allows you to see things alot easier when you are low, probably because altitude counts as distance away from the target. if you are at 200 feet you are very agile and you can conduct recon that way.

in real life what would likely happen is SIGINT/ELINT would tell you pretty well where they are, then you'd go in for standoff recon with a targeting pod at ~20nm and then you'd whack the thing with JSOW/JDAM/HARM/SLAM/LGB/- you get the idea. though once you know where it is mk82 attacks work really well against SA-2 battalions.

(in reply to Phoenix100)

Post #: 7

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/17/2017 12:54:26 PM

Phoenix100

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Thanks Cik. Very helpful, indeed. I suspected it would have to be sending bait in. I'll try to work out how to get the a/c to produce contrails....

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Post #: 8

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/17/2017 2:22:41 PM

Cik

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contrails depend on the weather but if it's clear you should probably be contrailing at angels 36

unfortunately the effect is realistically less for a tactical fighter, so it's probably going to be difficult to get them to see you at longer than RTR which means you are going to have trouble dodging incoming missiles at that altitude due to lower maneuverability potential in the high atmosphere.

the detection game of tactical fighter vs. SAM is pretty tilted in game IMO. it should be easier to see giant missile launching vehicles with sophisticated targeting pods IMO

i don't mean to slag on the game though. it's great of course, just in this specific task you're going to have a decent amount of trouble.

(in reply to Phoenix100)

Post #: 9

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/17/2017 5:27:58 PM

Dan109

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Joined: 4/27/2017
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To me, the most important thing to do is kill any EW radar first. Else, when the FCR lights up, they shoot at you immediately. Without EW, the SAMs need to rely on other forms of spotting, i.e. Fighters, even their own mk1 eyeball. But when that happens, the SAM should have the same OODA that you have, precious seconds to live or die. without harms, either an unspotted aircraft with a standoff weapon or try to use terrain masking to fly in a previously undetected aircraft in fast and low, to drop Ordinace that doesn't have a low tolerance for ambiguity. Also change that aircrafts WRA for ambiguity, from pessimistic to optimistic or higher. Nothing worse being over a SAM detected several seconds ago and not being able to release your cluster bombs.

I haven't played modern scenarios yet, but I think the same tactics apply from vietnam to today. Differences in the techs just require you to tweak the ranges for your tactics. Decoys are a godsend, for the dirty work.

< Message edited by Dan109 -- 5/17/2017 5:31:02 PM >

(in reply to Cik)

Post #: 10

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/18/2017 1:10:25 AM

KungPao

Posts: 333
Joined: 4/25/2016
From: Red China
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Very grateful if anyone could point me anywhere to deal with two points, or give any tips, thanks.

I've been playing Litani River to try to learn various things. The task is to destroy two suspected SAM sites. The exact location of these sites isn't known, however. So I've tried many ways to get them to light up and then hit them with HARMs but always I end losing 2 or 3 F16s (not the HARM-loaded F16s, which happily fire and kill from way way off, but the planes I send in first to get the sites to light up their radars).

1. If you know where a SAM site is roughly and you have HARM loadouts, what is the most effective tactic for getting the SAM site to reveal itself? What do they do in RL, I wonder? (I guess you're meant to do the same in game).

2. If you know where a SAM site is roughly but you have no HARMS, just conventional-type bombs etc, then what is the best tactic to try to find and destroy the SAM site without loss, or with minimal losses?

I have already searched the threads without finding anything directly on this. Maybe it's too obvious - I can't believe someone hasn't already asked or covered this, but if they have I can't find it, sorry.

Cheers.

Hi Phoenix
I think Litani River is a very hard scenario.
HARM requires you to catch enemy's emission first. But in Litani River, due to the Syrian's doctrine setting and advance SAM system SA-17 they have, it's going to be very hard to pickup the emission. SA-17 will launch SAM first, only turn on their radar several seconds before the impact. You might lose the emission contact before the OODA cool down

In my game, I took a gamble. I used the terrain to cover my NOE flight. Spotted the SAM site with FLIR pod, then it's a game of whose OODA cool down first. My AGM-65D and CBU hit poor Syrian SAM just as the first SAM leave the launcher.

< Message edited by KungPao -- 5/18/2017 1:11:29 AM >

_____________________________

Sir? Do you want to order a Kung Pao Chicken or a Kung Fu Chicken?

(in reply to Phoenix100)

Post #: 11

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/18/2017 6:20:32 PM

Phoenix100

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Thanks, KungPao. I will try those tactics when I find the scenario again (missing from latest community pack). I agree it's hard! I've sent over bait and it's true (though I hadn't realised why until you posted) that the Syrian missiles are in the air long before my planes pick up the radar emissions, then they go into defensive, and then usually it's all over....But I hadn't been going in low with radar off usinf FLIR instead.

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Post #: 12

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/19/2017 12:25:04 PM

Cik

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Joined: 10/5/2016
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unless you are flying in a relatively sterilized environment going in at low-alt isn't a good idea. once you drop below medium altitude you are asking to eat a SHORAD or 23mm gun burst. it may work if you are ingressing from the ocean or are 100% sure you've sanitized your ingress corridor, however the SA-17 has no real problem with shooting against low altitude threats to itself.

seems like basically in this scenario you'd simply wait until you could pin down their position with recon satellite and then toss stand-off stuff at it until it blows up. trying to nose-to-nose an SA-17 with a maverick is, well, definitely on the adventurous side.

(in reply to Phoenix100)

Post #: 13

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/19/2017 6:32:59 PM

Phoenix100

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
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Thanks Dan109 and Cik. I've now tried this many ways. I think KungPao might have got lucky with the low approach, as Cik suggests. I always lose a fighter going in low. I can get these two SAM sites lit up and targetted with the loss of 1 F16, so far. Struggling to do better than that, which is surely below par. I would have thought the Israelis have this down to a fine art and could deal with 2 SAM sites without loss. At any rate, that's what I keep trying to do - detect them and kil them without loss. But I must be doing something wrong, not least because this all involves so much micromanagement. I should surely be able to hit upon the right combination of missions, set 'em up and watch...

< Message edited by phoenix -- 5/19/2017 6:33:46 PM >

(in reply to Cik)

Post #: 14

RE: novice help with SEAD - 5/19/2017 6:54:35 PM

Cik

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Joined: 10/5/2016
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in order to do it you need effective standoff vis/FLIR reconnaissance assets that can detect & ID from outside it's effective firing range. these assets simply don't exist in command as it is, AFAIK.

whether they exist in real life it's hard to say, my guess is yes. but basically with the stuff you have, achieving the objective may simply be impossible (save achieving it "by luck" essentially just rolling in and counting on the dice gods to give you favorable rolls against the SA-17 tracking)

i wouldn't sweat it. seems to me the scenario is like the sub training scen that pits you against the slow-moving udaloy: even if you are very good, you may still "fail" and especially if your objective is to succeed without losses.

(in reply to Phoenix100)

Post #: 15