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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/20/2017 10:21:36 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

7/31/44

Sub Wars: Tough days for the Allies. John's good TFs keep running right over my subs in the DEI, with no satisfying opportunities to shoot. But enemy ASW chews up my subs. I lost one today with two more heavily damaged.

I understood this to be a fairly well-known aspect of the game. I think reading Bullwinkle's comments were the most instructive, as he really loves this aspect of the game and works it hard.

It almost seems hopeless to employ the Allied subs against any enemy TF that includes air or sea ASW. I've considered pulling nearly everything out, grouping them at Manila, and then flooding a zone if and when KB should approach. But I'll try for a few more turns...trying, trying, trying to vector subs into KB's paths.


It is, by far, the most unbalanced-against-history aspect of the game. Very frustrating if you know anything about the real submarine war.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/20/2017 10:28:27 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


It is, by far, the most unbalanced-against-history aspect of the game. Very frustrating if you know anything about the real submarine war.


I would say aerial mines are...nerfed to almost uselessness as compared to real life.

I wonder if John has the souped up Es...this game started a long time ago.

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Post #: 10502
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/20/2017 10:30:33 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Haven't seen that area of the map in a while but I'm pretty sure that the supply draw route through Lashio is open.

Not open for the 500 bonus supply to China every day, but normal supply will bypass the roadblock to some extent.


What makes you say this? I believe it is open for the 500 supply...& CR picture above confirms.



It depends on who controls the road hex sides outside Lashio, I think.

Edit - I missed that screenshot. I see it now. Yes, it should be open.


Lashio is not critical...if the road/rail is open from Rangoon to Myitkyina to Tsuyung (sic)I believe.


...which passes through that Lashio road. It's Rangoon to Tsuyung OR Ledo to Tsuyung (this one is impossible, listed in the manual, so am thinking it either got changed or this condition is simply ignored as it's not possible). Also worth noting that John has a unit blocking the trail outside Taung Gyi.

However, there is a trail path that can be traced from Rangoon through Katha and Myitkyina then back south to Lashio and east to Tsuyung, so it should be open.

Also, the manual says it must be free of Japanese units, so it doesn't follow normal supply rules (which is hex side control, not necessarily free of units).

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Post #: 10503
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/20/2017 10:39:18 PM   
Canoerebel


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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		7/31/44

Burma Road: Loki, I'd ordinarily defer to you for just about anything, most certainly issues involving rules; but in this case, I know that the presence of enemy units did not disrupt the flow of supply on the Burma Road. The Allies controlled the necessary hexsides, and that was sufficient.

And then look what happened to those enemy units today!




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/20/2017 10:58:27 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Maybe 6 or so years ago, in our 2x2 game we were under the impression that enemy units in a hex stopped supply flow but the 4 of us working together were able to determine (and I think Michael later confirmed) that only the hex sides matter. Enemy presence does not matter except insofar as it influences hex side ownership.

I figure that the Burma Road code uses the same base logic routines instead of being totally custom, and so must work the same way.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/20/2017 11:21:38 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

...which passes through that Lashio road. It's Rangoon to Tsuyung OR Ledo to Tsuyung (this one is impossible, listed in the manual, so am thinking it either got changed or this condition is simply ignored as it's not possible).


Alfred posted that the manual is wrong...

Plus the path from Myit come east of Lashio...bypassing it.

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Post #: 10506
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/20/2017 11:25:30 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Correct...it is a rail/road hexiside control path from Rangoon to Tsuy no matter how convoluted.


I also believe being below the garrison in Rangoon, or suffering partisan attacks at Rangoon can close the Burma Road....I can't remember which.

When I have a little more time, I will search for Alfred's post on it...or perhaps I have it on one drive.

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Post #: 10507
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/21/2017 7:00:12 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		8/1/44

Intelligence Screen: The Allies pull into the lead on the first day of August....and one year ago, remnants of an Allied army were still making their stand in Sumatra. In a year (really, more like 14 months), the Allies have moved from Sumatra to the Aleutians to the Marshalls to the DEI to the Gulf of Caprentaria to Luzon to Borneo and to China.

During that interval, the carriers have never returned to Pearl (after departing nearly a year ago) and a lot of merchant ships have pushed forward. So logistics and related things must soon take some priority until balance is restored.

In the meantime, promising developments today in China and Formosa.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/21/2017 7:06:08 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		8/01/44

Bombardment Missions: Two successful bombardment missions against important enemy bases today; successful, but illustrative of the uncertainties inherent in bombardment missions.

The first mission consists of three DDs targeting Takao from Aparri, a distance of eight hexes. This TF goes in, does quite a bit of damage for small guys, and makes it all the way back to Aparri. Just like it was drawn up on the blackboard.

Night Naval bombardment of Takao at 84,65

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 7 damaged
Ki-84a Frank: 26 damaged
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-57-II Topsy: 18 damaged
Ki-57-I Topsy: 15 damaged
Ki-57-I Topsy: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
DD Jupiter
DD Van Galen
DD Gridley

Japanese ground losses:
20 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 21
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 48

DD Jupiter firing at Takao
DD Van Galen firing at Takao
DD Gridley firing at Takao



The second mission only has four hexes to travel but waits until the afternoon phase to make it to the target: Amoy. It does good work and ends up just a hex from Death Star, as expected. The bombardment is pretty strong.

Naval bombardment of Amoy at 83,61

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
H8K2 Emily: 47 damaged
H8K2 Emily: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-84a Frank: 90 damaged
Ki-84a Frank: 7 destroyed on ground
A7M2 Sam: 79 damaged
A7M2 Sam: 4 destroyed on ground
B5N2 Kate: 3 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB Idaho
BB Maryland
CA Salt Lake City
CA Pensacola
CL St. Louis
DD Gatling
DD Franks
DD Dashiell
DD Daly
DD Chauncey
DD Bryant
DD Bell
DD Charles Ausburne
DMS Forrest

Japanese ground losses:
822 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 49 destroyed, 81 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 15 (3 destroyed, 12 disabled)
Vehicles lost 63 (18 destroyed, 45 disabled)

Airbase hits 62
Airbase supply hits 9
Runway hits 87
Port hits 39
Port supply hits 3

BB Idaho firing at Amoy
BB Maryland firing at Amoy
CA Salt Lake City firing at Amoy
CA Pensacola firing at Amoy
CL St. Louis firing at Amoy
DD Gatling firing at Amoy
DD Franks firing at Amoy
DD Dashiell firing at Amoy
DD Daly firing at Amoy
DD Chauncey firing at Amoy
DD Bryant firing at Amoy
DD Bell firing at 9th Ind.Mixed Brigade
DD Charles Ausburne firing at Amoy
DMS Forrest firing at Amoy

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/21/2017 7:13:46 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Very productive.... or is that destructive... missions.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/21/2017 7:19:07 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		8/1/44

SEAC: The Allies pushing forward. There will come a day when advancing units encounter stiff (or stiffer) opposition. Then air power will become more important.






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Post #: 10511
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/21/2017 7:33:44 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Peep Show: A productive day in and around Foochow and against Formosa's airfields.




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Post #: 10512
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/21/2017 8:08:29 PM   
DW

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline 		"This isn't the beginning of the end..."

I think that was Churchill with respect to the victory in N. Africa.

You're well past the "end of the beginning", I think.


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 10513
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/21/2017 8:10:20 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
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Status: offline 		Maybe it's the beginning of the end. :)

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Post #: 10514
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/21/2017 8:19:04 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Maybe it's the beginning of the end. :)


Which means NEW....





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Post #: 10515
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 1:50:42 AM   
Bif1961


Posts: 2014
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Status: offline 		is that the movie with the huge flying ants?

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Post #: 10516
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 1:53:08 AM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
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From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		Perhaps its not the beginning of the end, nor the end of the beginning. It might just be the end of the beginning of the beginning of the end.

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Post #: 10517
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 3:02:55 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

is that the movie with the huge flying ants?


Isn't that one of the "Them" movies?

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Post #: 10518
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 4:21:09 AM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		This one is grasshoppers...bad, but not bad enough to be good.

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Post #: 10519
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 11:01:39 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		8/2/44

Peep Show: Continued progress in suppressing Formosa's airfield and in moving west from Foochow. Four bombardments scheduled at Formosa tomorrow.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 11:17:39 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		8/2/44

DEI and Sub Wars: An IJ sub scored a single hit on CL Biloxi today, and she went under. Augh!

KB air ASW clobbered my subs, sinking two outright and damaging two or three more.

Reluctantly, I'm radically modifying my submarine strategy to concentrate them near exposed Allied bases where I have decent CAP (Boela, Miri, Manila, Foochow).

I don't enjoy micromanaging subs every turn, vectoring each one to a new position, but I've knuckled down and done it for months now. I've "hemmed in" KB many times; many times John's carriers have run right over subs. In that time, one sub had a shot at Akagi and missed. Other than that, my subs have gotten pummeled. And the pummeling has increased of late. E-class ASW platforms and KB's air ASW are tough.

I want to conserve my subs so that they can "flood the zone" if and when a decisive naval battle takes place around Formosa.




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Post #: 10521
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 12:26:22 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		8/2/44

Pilot Losses & Air War Summary: See image for details.




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Post #: 10522
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 1:46:28 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		If you have 60+ Jugs in the pool...but how many do you have in active squadrons? It sounds to me like you are starting to hurt on fighters...as it will be till November before you really start getting a lot more....especially if you are worried about the British pilots.

It may be a moot point, with night action opening up shortly. Have you given some thought to that? Have you gotten some good aerial recon on Honshu (don't forget Korea,no VP but good industry there)...any advanced fighters being researched in Japan? There is a definite learning curve involved in night bombing, and the results at first can look quite poor.

Don't Corsairs make good sweepers?

Nice to see the destroyer surface bombardment.

BTW, what is the Chinese unit north of your landing?

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/22/2017 1:47:52 PM >

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Post #: 10523
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 1:57:11 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		The Chinese unit is an HQ serving in a scout/trip-wire role.

Corsairs haven't done very well in the sweep role - yet. I'm using them selectively, as the pools are relatively low.

I'm fine on USAAF fighter frames for now, I think. I have a lot of squadrons flying the -D25, with another 60+ in the pools. I have several squadrons flying the -D2, with 80+ in the pools. But the -D2 doesn't do well against Franks, Georges and Sams, I think.

The next few days will be important - the combination of bombardment missions, sweeps and bombing may close or cripple most of John's fields on Formosa. He'll also be threatened with the loss of Amoy's airfield, the only large IJ base within supporting distance (the next closest being Okinawa). Once I close or cripple those big airfields, the pace of operations should slow a bit.

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Post #: 10524
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 2:36:36 PM   
HansBolter


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From: United States
Status: offline 		Don't forget to look to the defensive side of night bombing.
Do you have any ports full of disbanded ships with no current night CAP?
You have not likely been attending to night CAP with your HRs.

Playing the AI makes you very attentive to night CAP.
The AI night bombs any base as soon as I distribute a day flying fighter squadron to the base.


On B25s for airfield busting....I have found 48 b25s to be more effective some times in airfield busting than 48 B24s.
As long as you can get them to go in in decent size batches instead of dribs and drabs you can get very good results.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 5/22/2017 2:38:39 PM >

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 10525
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 2:38:37 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I figure John will hit Manila as soon as night-bombing goes into effect - August 15. Assuming the moon phase is satisfactory then. So I've moved a lot of my AA there and will have four or five night fighter squadrons on patrol

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Post #: 10526
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 2:45:43 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

7/31/44

Sub Wars: Tough days for the Allies. John's good TFs keep running right over my subs in the DEI, with no satisfying opportunities to shoot. But enemy ASW chews up my subs. I lost one today with two more heavily damaged.

I understood this to be a fairly well-known aspect of the game. I think reading Bullwinkle's comments were the most instructive, as he really loves this aspect of the game and works it hard.

It almost seems hopeless to employ the Allied subs against any enemy TF that includes air or sea ASW. I've considered pulling nearly everything out, grouping them at Manila, and then flooding a zone if and when KB should approach. But I'll try for a few more turns...trying, trying, trying to vector subs into KB's paths.


It is, by far, the most unbalanced-against-history aspect of the game. Very frustrating if you know anything about the real submarine war.


I have pretty much abandoned any notion of conducting sub warfare against the Japanese merchant fleet. Just does not work. Any competent Japanese player can deal with it and subs instead of ignoring escorts like they did in real life, tend to target them first. I now use only about 25% of my subs for that and devote the other 75% in support of invasions and fleet actions. Less kills but many more high value target kills. If an area is flooded with subs after a bloody fight the result can be devastating. Best thing is when a capital ship takes damage and then detaches from the TF with no or only one escort. That just draws subs like flies to bacon. I have sunk one big carrier and one light in this manner with three fish hitting both the Akagi and Kaga but probably not sinking them. There is a much better level of protection against ASW when your subs are working near your fleet.

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Sigismund of Luxemburg

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Post #: 10527
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 3:18:58 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline 		That movie poster is amazing, with a young Peter Graves. Really cool.

Looks like a tough air war over Formosa. But if you can win here, the Japanese will be in terrible shape for whatever follows.

How long do you think it will take to get total Allied control over Indochina?

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Post #: 10528
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 3:32:54 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		The Allies should prevail in the air war over Formosa unless John commits KB .... and I'd like him to commit KB; it'll get his carriers in the open, and it may clear or ease things on my LOC, allowing supply to come forward more easily. If he does commit KB, the fewer airfields he can call on for support the better. Taking two or three coastal Chinese bases (Foochow was a 3 and Amoy is a 7) will be big steps in the right direction. Keeping some or most of his Formosa fields moderately or heavily damaged will be important. I'm making progress at Takao and Kagi; Hengchun is a small base and rather exposed (I don't think it has much aviation support either); Taichu and Taihoku will get attention, starting with tomorrow's bombardment missions.

I'm don't yet know whether John has a core of decent units in southern Indochina. If he hasn't, the Allies should take Saigon within two weeks. If there is a core, I'll probably need the air force to lend a hand. I have base forces at Bangkok, but supply levels could be a limiting factor. Drawing supply from Rangoon takes awhile and it tends to dribble in.

Once Saigon falls, the consolidated Allied armies will move up the coast towards John's MLR, wherever that happens to be at the time. He'd better not select the open terrain at Hanoi and Haiphong. If he chooses good terrain, that battle may take a month or more.

(in reply to jwolf)
Post #: 10529
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 5/22/2017 4:43:09 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

is that the movie with the huge flying ants?


Isn't that one of the "Them" movies?


Was on TCM a week ago or so. Forgot how good/bad it was. Almost spit my drink out when I saw Spock in a bit part. Must have been one of his first appearances.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 10530
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