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Computer information and advice - 5/18/2017 12:38:24 PM

Yogi the Great

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From: Wisconsin
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While no emergency it may soon be time for me to replace my aging Pentium based computer with windows 7 with a new one. It works just fine and runs what games I have now but sooner or later we all need to upgrade and I usually buy a good machine near the top expecting it to last me 7 to 10 years before another is needed.

First question, any of you computer geeks have information on when/if the current top Intel seventh generation i7 will be replaced with a new faster/better chip?

Second question, I have always bought Intel but does anyone have an opinion as to reasons why or why not to consider AMD?

Third question, back to current Intel, opinions on if the i5 is plenty of power for gaming. Considering pricing that does make it attractive but saving a few bucks isn't worth it a few years down the road if I'm going to wish I had the i7.

Thanks, I post here because I have a great deal of respect for the forum members and more confidence in your quality valid opinions over what any computer salesperson in store or on-line may give me.

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/18/2017 12:48:08 PM

Rising-Sun

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Well if you have extra cash I would go for i7 intel cpu, believe i5 is all you ever need. Unless i7 is on sale. Not much into AMD processor, I have heard up and down on those chips as well video cards too.

If you don't have local pc in your area, would recommend getting this from newegg.com, it where I get all my stuffs building a new pc and upgrade.

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/18/2017 1:52:49 PM

VPaulus

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1. Intel is going to release the i9:
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/249365-rumor-intel-planning-new-12-core-core-i9-cpus-challenge-amds-ryzen

2. This is highly arguable, but for me Intel means reliability and performance.

3. Depending on the type of games, but an i5 can be a good choice.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-cpus,3986.html

< Message edited by VPaulus -- 5/18/2017 1:53:22 PM >

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/18/2017 2:23:18 PM

Qwixt

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1. I do not know. I find so little performance difference these days between the generations, that I no longer watch such stuff. Backin the day, 286 to 386 to 486 was something else. These days, it seems like the next generation is 5%-10% improvement.

2. Before I get into amd vs intel, let me explain the difference between i3, i5, i7, and i7-extreme.(Note: HT = hyper-threading) i3 has 2 core + HT. i5 has 4 cores but no HT. i7 has 4 cores + HT. Finally, i7-E has 6+ cores + HT.

AMD's fastest newest chip (Ryzen) is targeting the i7 and i7-E. AMD also has lower range chips too. In my opinion, the ryzen only successfully competes in the i7-E market, because its single thread performance cannot compete with the higher end i7 chips. AMD had some scheduler issues with win 10 when first released, and I would say as with any AMD drivers, you do not want to be on the bleeding edge. Drivers need a little more time.

i7-E and Ryzen are very good for heavy multithreaded processes like video editing. Games generally only use 1-3 threads (aka cores) in my experience. So if you just play games and surf the internet, generally speaking i5 or i7 is good enough.

3. Considering how often you buy computers, I can only recommend i7.

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/18/2017 2:52:24 PM

zakblood

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the i9 and also the AMD Ryzen ThreadRipper High End Desktop CPU's are both a waste of space for most but the most utter speed freaks who crave for the highest benchmarks only imo

the i5 and i7 are more than enough for most gamers, or the equivalent AMD chip which for me are the Ryzen 5 which is roughly a i3 to i5 based speed depending on model, as there are 4 cores of 6 core versions then the i7 equivalent which is the Ryzen 7 which is an Eight Core chip

as most games still don't use all cores, or very few, for me a quad or six core is plenty for most.

imo cores aren't as useful and clock speed, so i use a overclocked i7 which is a i7 2700k which runs at 4.2ghz on all 4 cores, plenty good enough to run and test all the game here i need access to, but my gaming rig is a quicker one, again a overclocked model, which was bought overclocked.

imo again, set yourself a budget and see who can get the most out of it, for me, faster clock speed is better than more cores for most, ram either ddr3 or 4, but 16gb either way and a good vga card is the basics, then go for a good SSD with a SSHD for data / storage.

more fans makes for a noisy case, but also a cooler pc, so depending on use, think of good airflow and placement in the room, windows equal extra heat the case will have to get out, so runs the fans more, same as a radiator placed behind it.

if money stretches, go for a fanless case or all water, costs more, but next to no noise.

and my last comment is, my rule of thumb, is build or buy for now and today, as tomorrow something twice as fast will come out and half the price, so don't go for a long term build, sometimes it's better to put in something that's at a good price but not the fastest and replace in a year or so when the faster model has dropped down by half the price etc, once a base is gotten, a pc can be swapped and changed as easy as your O/S

< Message edited by zakblood -- 5/18/2017 2:54:26 PM >

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/18/2017 3:18:22 PM

Jim D Burns

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If you're going to be pricing high end PC's, I recommend you check out CyberPowerPC. I've bought my last two rigs from them and it's been the best experience I've had with a dealer. I've bought rigs from Alienware (before Dell bought them), Falcon Northwest and Dell, and CyberPowerPC has been a better experience for me than those others by far.

My current rig is an i7 and I'm very happy with it. As you well know I'm sure, you can never have enough power when it comes to a PC as it will always eventually be left behind by future tech as it advances. Better to spend an extra 500 bucks today and perhaps extend the useful life of your PC by 2-4 years down the road. If you skimp today chances are you'll need another $2,000 rig years earlier down the road.

I would strongly recommend you only choose a video card that is capable of displaying in 4k as all monitors are eventually going to go that route in the future. 1080p will soon be considered archaic.

Jim

(in reply to Yogi the Great)

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/18/2017 4:44:29 PM

Yogi the Great

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Thanks for the advice all it is much appreciated - keep them coming

But since we have now touched on graphics which was to be my next question would love to hear opinions on that

Nvidia GTX 1060, 1070 or 1080? Other suggested cards?

Looking at 16g ram don't think I need to go to 32 any opinions?

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/18/2017 4:56:36 PM

zakblood

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16 is plenty, ive have 2 pc's with 16gb and one gaming rig with 32gb, and as of yet never even touched it, so i'd say 16gb is the sweetspot for almost everything for now

regarding cards, for me, depends on what games you play, the Nvidia GTX 1060 is a cracking card, with a 3gb or 6gb version, while it's in the starter line up for them for new cards, i'd say it's plenty for most as well, unless you plan some really heavy games, you shouldn't need much more with a decent setup.

i have a few

GeForce GTX 960 4gb
GeForce GTX 1050Ti 4gb

and a GeForce GTX 1070 "Founders Edition" 8192MB in my gaming rig

but also use 3 low end now days AMD cards in test pc's with 2gb ram

so depending on what sort of games you play the most, i'd go for one in budget and not break the bank now also, and spend the extra on a better monitor tbh

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Post #: 8

RE: Computer information and advice - 5/18/2017 8:43:58 PM

Aurelian

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I have an I5-6600K paired with a AMD RX-480 8gig. It runs everything I throw at it.

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/18/2017 9:42:03 PM

VPaulus

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Personally I would go for a Nvidia GTX1070, but a GTX1060 will be OK.
Again it depends on the types of games you play.
http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GTX-1070-vs-Nvidia-GTX-1060-6GB/3609vs3639

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-gpus,4380.html

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Post #: 10

RE: Computer information and advice - 5/18/2017 11:42:29 PM

demyansk

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Hi yogi,

I bought my computer back in September 2009. I have had no problems. The one thing the last 8 years I have done is upgrade to a 760 and now a 1070 card plus some additional ram and a Ssd drive. I bought the computer from Digital Storm,
http://www.digitalstorm.com

Very stable and I can play everything. However, everything at 1920/1080.

I could have bought the 1060 card I decided to get the 1070. I also have a i7

< Message edited by demjansk -- 5/18/2017 11:43:52 PM >

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/19/2017 2:54:04 AM

Capt. Harlock

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quote:

Second question, I have always bought Intel but does anyone have an opinion as to reasons why or why not to consider AMD?

I last bought a full computer over 15 years ago, but I upgrade every so often so there is nothing left of what I had back then (including the case). I've bought AMD CPU's with the last two motherboards, and haven't had any reason to complain so far.

I think you'lll find this website very useful: it has performance comparisons and price/performance ratios:
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/19/2017 3:08:48 AM

z1812

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Currently I have WIN 7, an i5 with 8g ram. My graphics card is a nvidia gtx 750. I have a 250g SSD for the operating system only and a 500g SSD for storage. All documents , photos, and music are on an external drive. It works very well. I can run Arma 3 with the graphic options on full and it is very smooth.

The SSD drives really make a difference.

If I was buying today it would be Win10, an i7 with 16g ram. The graphics card would be a nvidia 1050. A Samsung 250g SSD for the operating system with a Samsung 1T SSD for storage. An external drive for photos, music, and documents.

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/19/2017 8:13:33 AM

stuart3

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quote:

First question, any of you computer geeks have information on when/if the current top Intel seventh generation i7 will be replaced with a new faster/better chip?

In recent years, there has only been a few percentage points of performance gain with each new processor generation. The connectivity that comes with a good motherboard and an SSD have become more important.

quote:

Second question, I have always bought Intel but does anyone have an opinion as to reasons why or why not to consider AMD?

AMD are selling their Ryzen processors on price. A Ryzen processor is about half the cost of it's Intel equivalent, but it is a new range and has some teething problems, which is only to be expected. If you are not in a rush, consider giving it a year for AMD to sort these problems out, see whether Intel responds to AMD's pricing structure, and then decide.

quote:

Third question, back to current Intel, opinions on if the i5 is plenty of power for gaming. Considering pricing that does make it attractive but saving a few bucks isn't worth it a few years down the road if I'm going to wish I had the i7.

If you are happy to continue playing the sort of games that you must be playing on an old Pentium then a good i5 should last you a new machine's lifetime. But if you want to play the latest videogames at high resolution then an i7 or Ryzen equivalent will come into it's own, especially as AMD are pushing games companies to make full use of all the cores, rather than just pushing clock speed, and hyperthreading can only help.

quote:

Nvidia GTX 1060, 1070 or 1080? Other suggested cards?

It depends on your screen resolution. If you intend to stick with bog standard 1920 x 1080 pixel resolution as most users do, then there is little point to buying more than a GTX 1060. But if you are upgrading to 4K resolution then you will want a GTX 1070 or 1080. As a rule of thumb, the GTX 1070 has about 80% of a GTX 1080's graphics power, but costs only around 55% to 60% of the price. These will play current video games at between 33 and 45 fps at high settings, but you can easily get 60 fps out of them by turning some of the settings down. If money is no object then a GTX 1080Ti will let you play almost all current games at 60 fps at high settings.

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/19/2017 2:59:23 PM

PipFromSlitherine

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I would never try and build a machine to last me that long. Ignoring that waiting until a machine fails or is too slow isn't (for me) really an option, treating a PC as an "investment" isn't a good idea IMO. Buy components in the current sweet spot and then change them out in a few years for more components in the same range. You will have a faster machine in the end, having spent no more money (probably less), and likely more reliable to boot

.

I have used both AMD and Intel and until recently I would have always recommended Intel, but the Ryzen 7 seems to be standing up to the i7s very well (including on single core performance, where it seems to be somewhat stronger: http://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-7-1700x-6950x-7700k-cpu-benchmarks/ And they are a LOT cheaper.

As said, a note of the kinds of games you play will help people point to the best choice.

Cheers

Pip

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/21/2017 2:17:49 PM

Yogi the Great

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Thanks again to all of you the information has been very helpful to me. Thought I would expand a little, I'm not familiar with the functions and/or usefulness of a number of computer things. I put a possible computer together that I'm sure would be good. The below items apparently aren't required as they are listed as not included but you can add them. I am curious as to any opinion on them or their usefulness.

Hard drive cooling fan: (actually not expensive)

M.2 SSD: Price range about $60 to $900 (note the hard drive I was considering is a combination SSD & Hard Drive)

Internal PCI-E SSD card: Price range $30 to $1,000

Internal Wireless Network card: I usually connect hard wired to cable internet but do have Wi-Fi ability

Sound Cards: Includes an with an Internal 7.1 sound but gives the options of putting in a different soundcard like a sound blaster series etc.

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/21/2017 4:17:45 PM

VPaulus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great
Hard drive cooling fan: (actually not expensive)

Not essential, but if the case supports a frontal HD fan, why not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great
M.2 SSD: Price range about $60 to $900 (note the hard drive I was considering is a combination SSD & Hard Drive)

Best combination:
1xSSD for booting Windows and some games.
1xSATA for archiving

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great
Internal PCI-E SSD card: Price range $30 to $1,000

Unless you want to create a raid system, I don't think you need one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great
Internal Wireless Network card: I usually connect hard wired to cable internet but do have Wi-Fi ability

Hard wire is always better. You won't need Wi-Fi if you can connect through wire.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great
Sound Cards: Includes an with an Internal 7.1 sound but gives the options of putting in a different soundcard like a sound blaster series etc.

The internal sound is more than enough, in my opinion.

Only three extra things that are important and a lot of people forget when assembling their systems:

1. A good quality PSU, from a good brand (like Corsair for example).

2. A solid case, with good ventialtion. I usually prefer Corsair (Carbide models) and Coolermaster.

3. A good, and very important, quite fan. The stock fans usually do some noise when the CPU is being pushed. There are a lot of good brands, but for air systems, I prefer Noctua.

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/21/2017 6:00:46 PM

Qwixt

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To hit on #1 from VPaulus, do not skimp on the PSU. I don't mean wattage when I say that either. I mean quality. PSU is severely underrated when it comes to the importance of a computer.

I never get wireless for my desktop computers. Always wired connected. Onboard motherboard sound is much better these days as long as it is a recent version.

I my current computer I have a M.2 x3 for the system hard drive (128gb as I do not put many programs in this drive). Then I get the normal large 7200 rpm hdd, and one larger SSD drive for games that I want to load faster. The larger SSD I partition one 64gb section as cache to use for Intel RST (Rapid Storage Technology), then rest is for games. That 64gb cache is then used for the large HDD to help commonly load things load faster. You do need intel chipset and supporting motherboard for iRST though.

I am probably a bit overboard and not the normal or average sort of user here.

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/21/2017 7:14:50 PM

stuart3

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My first SSD was a 60Gb cache drive, which effectively converted my HDD to a hybrid drive. The speed increase was impressive. Later, I replaced it with 500Gb SSD. That also produced an impressive speed boost, so I also recommend an SSD for the OS and games, with a cheaper but larger HDD for pretty much everything else. But do go to the Steam Store and check out the amount of disk space required for the games you may be thinking of buying. You might get a shock. I would recommend at least 500Gb if it fits your budget.

As to sound, internal is very high quality these days, but it sometimes gets bad press because so many users play it through cheap, tinny speakers. As with all sound systems, they are only as good as the poorest component so get some good speakers.

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/22/2017 12:42:54 PM

Yogi the Great

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

1. A good quality PSU, from a good brand (like Corsair for example).

Any thoughts on this one: 1050 Watts - EVGA SuperNOVA 1050 GS 80 Plus GOLD Certified Fully Modular NVIDIA SLI and Crossfire Ready Power Supply

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/22/2017 2:08:15 PM

Qwixt

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Sounds like a good PSU

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&file=print&reid=418

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Post #: 21

RE: Computer information and advice - 5/22/2017 2:28:44 PM

VPaulus

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It's from a good brand, and I've read nice reviews about this model. But I really, really doubt that you need a 1050 PSU.
You can calculate the power you need using this calculator:
http://www.coolermaster.com/power-supply-calculator/
I usually add more 15/20% to the calculator result. My most powerful PSU it's a Corsair 750W, and it's not even assembled on my gaming machine.

In a PSU you shouldn't only worry with how powerful it is, there are other concerns, like efficiency , silence, etc, etc...
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/psu-buying-guide,2916.html

Again, these PSUs are heavy, so make sure that the computer case is really solid and permit good cable management.

A list of alternatives:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-psus,4229.html

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Post #: 22

RE: Computer information and advice - 5/22/2017 3:25:35 PM

Lobster

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Build my own machines. Never used anything but AMD. You can thank me for keeping Intel prices reasonable later.

I should add I've been doing that for 27 years so actually only used AMD since they first came out with the AM486 family. Not real sure what year that was. Yeah I'm old. Takes a bit to dredge up that stuff from the memory banks.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 5/22/2017 3:32:01 PM >

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/22/2017 3:34:15 PM

Rising-Sun

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Yeah don't want to buy those cheap PSU, infact they can damage or even destroy your hardware, even Blue Screen of Death too.

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/22/2017 3:46:51 PM

Qwixt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Build my own machines. Never used anything but AMD. You can thank me for keeping Intel prices reasonable later.

I should add I've been doing that for 27 years so actually only used AMD since they first came out with the AM486 family. Not real sure what year that was. Yeah I'm old. Takes a bit to dredge up that stuff from the memory banks.

I have used AMD gpus quite a bit. If you want to talk about going back, I did use a knockoff 8088 because it had a higher turbo, like .5-1 mhz higher

I was like, why would anyone not keep the red button pressed for turbo mode. I even bought a 8087 and did some assembler programming to use it. It was quite a bit different programming for it because it was stack based registers, not normal cpu register based.

The last AMD cpus I used were when they beat intel with their first 64 bit processor. Ryzen has me interested, but there is no reason for me to upgrade from my 5820k. I still think you are asking for some hardship adopting any brand new hardware from AMD based on my GPU experiences of the past. They are getting better though. If I was building a machine right now, I would wait for 6 months or so to see if intel has an answer, and to give the ryzen drivers time to mature.

< Message edited by Qwixt -- 5/22/2017 3:54:30 PM >

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/22/2017 11:06:28 PM

Gilmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

To hit on #1 from VPaulus, do not skimp on the PSU. I don't mean wattage when I say that either. I mean quality. PSU is severely underrated when it comes to the importance of a computer.

I never get wireless for my desktop computers. Always wired connected. Onboard motherboard sound is much better these days as long as it is a recent version.

I my current computer I have a M.2 x3 for the system hard drive (128gb as I do not put many programs in this drive). Then I get the normal large 7200 rpm hdd, and one larger SSD drive for games that I want to load faster. The larger SSD I partition one 64gb section as cache to use for Intel RST (Rapid Storage Technology), then rest is for games. That 64gb cache is then used for the large HDD to help commonly load things load faster. You do need intel chipset and supporting motherboard for iRST though.

I am probably a bit overboard and not the normal or average sort of user here.

I have to agree with this one. I can't remember what power source I got but I think it is Corsair and a nice one at that. I wish I had bought a modular one and messed that up. I had planned on getting modular which gives you the ability to unplug cables you aren't using. So, I have a mess of cables at the bottom of the case. :(

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Post #: 26

RE: Computer information and advice - 5/22/2017 11:10:34 PM

Gilmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stuart3

My first SSD was a 60Gb cache drive, which effectively converted my HDD to a hybrid drive. The speed increase was impressive. Later, I replaced it with 500Gb SSD. That also produced an impressive speed boost, so I also recommend an SSD for the OS and games, with a cheaper but larger HDD for pretty much everything else. But do go to the Steam Store and check out the amount of disk space required for the games you may be thinking of buying. You might get a shock. I would recommend at least 500Gb if it fits your budget.

As to sound, internal is very high quality these days, but it sometimes gets bad press because so many users play it through cheap, tinny speakers. As with all sound systems, they are only as good as the poorest component so get some good speakers.

Yes, yes, and, yes. Do not scrimp on anything! You'll regret it. One of the reasons I don't like prebuilt computers now is that their wireless cards usually suck and you don't even realize it. I have wireless cable and I told my brother in law ( a computer guy for the Air Force, now retired and a contractor for the AF) that I was getting 1.4 megs download on my wireless and he said, "That sucks! You should be getting 8 times that!" So, fast forward to my computer I built and I got a top of the line decent wireless card and my speeds jumped about 8 times, like he said. I couldn't stream netflix on the old computer. Too many freezes. Now I can watch pretty much any TV/netflix streaming. No problems at all.

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(in reply to stuart3)

Post #: 27

RE: Computer information and advice - 5/25/2017 1:12:10 PM

Mobius

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Computers are so cheap now that you should buy two. My 10 year old vista machine's mother-board just gave up the ghost so I ordered a new game machine. As I always had two computers I am still running email and older software on an XP. But, the price of a new lower tier machine is $300-400. I'm going to replace the xp with one of these.

I wouldn't pay up too far out of the norm for a new computer. Save the extra cash for the next computer you may buy in 4-5 years. Where they will be twice as fast and better at the same price today. And today's OS will be depreciated.

I found two computers useful when testing games (developing software). I can email the programmers while testing the game w/o impacting the game. Plus it is a hard buffer for any malware or unwanted incursions.

< Message edited by Mobius -- 5/25/2017 1:35:47 PM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Computer information and advice - 5/25/2017 2:53:00 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

The new AMD chip is a good choice if you where looking at the I5 CPU's

thinking of getting he Ryzen1600

My first proper PC was Intel..but since then I've gone for AMD..purely due to budget restraints..if I had the money I'd prob go for an I7.

< Message edited by wodin -- 5/25/2017 2:54:12 PM >

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RE: Computer information and advice - 5/26/2017 12:54:09 PM

Yogi the Great

Posts: 1948
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

Thanks again everyone it has been very helpful and informative.

My senior mind apparently thought back to my previous computer (Pentium) what I actually have now is a Dell XPS 8500, Intel i5 3450, windows home premium, 8 GB ram, graphics card apparently an AMD Radeon HD 7570.

While it can still play the majority of my current games, it does struggle with things like the total War games, CIV IV, V & VI and even games like Order of battle and a few others. Long load times, slow performance and occasional total crashes. Even sometimes just shuts down totally and has to have a restart like it did a few minutes ago the first time I was trying to write this message for posting. With the graphics becoming an even bigger game feature and predicted future will be even higher graphics and program size I have to buy now or in the next year or two I expect while having to possibly not buy some new release games until I do.

Oh been trying to remember the actual year of purchase, I know it is no older than 2007 (copyright of the windows program) and no newer than 2011. Probably 2010 0r 2011. I remember that Windows 8 was recently out at the time but was also being trashed so bad in the reviews most everyone including most computer sales people and techs were telling people to stay with 7.

< Message edited by Yogi the Great -- 5/26/2017 1:15:28 PM >

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