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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> ASW Air Mission

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ASW Air Mission - 5/29/2017 2:59:29 PM

ElvisDaKing

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From: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
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I have some questions about air ASW mission, especially compare to Nav Search mission.

I understand that ASW is purposely to attack ennemy subs (at max halved range)- 'pilot ASW skill' and Nav Search to locate enemy TF, including subs - 'pilot NavSrch skill'.

It appears also that squadrons on Nav Search do also some opportunity ASW attacks (max halved ranged of their base ?) but are these opportunity attacks related to ASW skills of the pilots ?

Do the ASW pilot skill influence the number of attack or the efficiency of the attack ?

Also when only on ASW mission, let s say 70% ASW and 30% Rest; will the squadron do search and spot for ennemy sub - using Nav Search skill of the pilot - or only attack spotted subs - so will not search for undetected enemy sub ?
If when on ASW there s no search routine, even at halved ranged, this would mean that ASW squadron cannot operate without close collaboration of another squadron dedicated on Nav Search...

What is the ratio (Nav search and ASW) you use for squadrons dedicated for sub hunting ?

Last but not least, electronics...
Some aircraft can carry some devices like radar and others (MAD)
Do these devices impact the efficiency of the ASW attack, or only increasing probability to spot ennemy TF/sub ?

Talking about MAD, it looks like to have very small impact (range = 1k, accuracy = 10, effect = 2)
Well , when playing japanese, we cannot be choosy so any small and tiny bonus is worth to be taken, but there are 2 MAD listed in the game, both identical : 1 available on October 1942 and second one in June 1944...
Can you please clarifiy ...

Thanks

< Message edited by ElvisDaKing -- 5/29/2017 3:02:27 PM >

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 5/29/2017 3:50:54 PM

Bullwinkle58

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Not answering all of your specific questions, but I tend to not mix missions. Either ASW or Search. Just makes it easier to keep the altitudes and ranges straight for me.

DL is the key to ASW, as everything else naval in the game. I find Search better at maxing DLs in general. Search missions carry bombs and will attack sometimes (training dependent), but as you say ASW missions are better. But only half the range.

I believe the electronics only influence DL, but what goes on inside the algorithms is "who knows?" I would encourage you to experiment.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/29/2017 3:52:32 PM >

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 5/29/2017 9:57:19 PM

kbfchicago

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Joined: 10/17/2009
From: NC, USA
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Unlike the much revered and oft cited Mouse I do mix missions, specifically early in the war (as allied). There just isn't enough assets to go around in 42-43. I'll usually deploy with the primary skill in the 60s (e.g Nav Search), set as "ASW Mission" with 40 NS, 30 ASW, 20 Tng, 10 rest. Over a few months the ASW skills will pick up to reasonable level. Raise to 50/40, 10 rest once ASW is at least in the 50s (3-4 months).

The point on DL is "spot on" (I hate that saying...but have yet find a better one...), for anti-sub its all about exposing them first. Then chase with ASW A/C and DDs (AMs, SCs, PCs, et. al.).

Yes, I tend to collaborate once there are enough air assets, so you have one Sqdn dedicated to Nav Search and one dedicated to ASW covering the same areas.

I've not picked up a rhyme or reason to ASW training and opportunity attacks by Nav Search on subs. Nor do recall anyone doing a sandbox experiment on this point.

Happy gaming,

Kevin

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 5/29/2017 10:14:10 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kbfchicago

Unlike the much revered and oft cited Mouse I do mix missions, specifically early in the war (as allied). There just isn't enough assets to go around in 42-43. I'll usually deploy with the primary skill in the 60s (e.g Nav Search), set as "ASW Mission" with 40 NS, 30 ASW, 20 Tng, 10 rest. Over a few months the ASW skills will pick up to reasonable level. Raise to 50/40, 10 rest once ASW is at least in the 50s (3-4 months).

For me, the tiny unit sizes of the pre-war air units makes splitting difficult. So few slices get covered in either regime that way. Some places I care a lot more about ASW than others, so those get ASW with the planes I have. Other places it's LR search, especially on major islands. ASW tends to be more continental at first, keeping ports open to egress and ingress.

You're right about early war shortages. The air forces are woeful.

I tend to not train with operating units. The airframes are too valuable to tie up in training out on the line. I use the Bolos to their utmost on 100% training from Day 1 on ASW. I have even been known to use B-17s in a pinch, far from the ocean (cough, Alice Springs, cough.) I usually shove guys into an operating unit in the high-40s, low-50s. Getting to 60 is nice, but I need bombs on subs in the first 4-6 months, if only to drive them back to base.

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 5/30/2017 12:36:58 AM

BBfanboy

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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kbfchicago

The point on DL is "spot on" (I hate that saying...but have yet find a better one...), ...

Did you know that expression originated with seagulls? (the feathered ones, not the FPs).

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 5/31/2017 2:03:49 AM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
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quote:

DL is the key to ASW

Yup, so when I have an area that has had several sub sighting I tend to have one group search/day, one search/night, and one ASW, when I can. Results to this point have been very good with fully trained crews (all 60-70 in their respective skills).

quote:

but are these opportunity attacks related to ASW skills of the pilots ?

From my experience I would say, yes.

quote:

Do the ASW pilot skill influence the number of attack or the efficiency of the attack ?

Again, from my experience I would say both.

quote:

What is the ratio (Nav search and ASW) you use for squadrons dedicated for sub hunting ?

As with the 'Moose' I don't usually 'split' an ASW units' functions. Maybe in some rare instances, but can't think of any examples at the moment.

quote:

1 available on October 1942

I'm not aware of this. AFAIK Japanese A/C won't get any electronics until sometime in '44. If you can clarify where you found this I might have an explanation. MAD is not a very effective device at any rate, but take what you get.

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 5/31/2017 6:28:30 AM

Barb

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DL is a key for attacking, MDL is key for locating, electronics can raise up DL, bomb load will raise odds for hitting.
High DL/MDL makes sub prone to being sighted before attack, can lead to sub destruction in combat.

PB4Y with naval search radar and 10x500lb bombs should be a real submarine bane - large patrol area, high detection chances, high hit chances. Yet most of the players treat them just like another heavy bomber...
P1V/P2V would be highly useful too in mid/short range.

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/18/2017 1:33:33 AM

ElvisDaKing

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From: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

1 available on October 1942

I'm not aware of this. AFAIK Japanese A/C won't get any electronics until sometime in '44. If you can clarify where you found this I might have an explanation. MAD is not a very effective device at any rate, but take what you get.

When looking electronics data, it says that
MAD available in October 1942
MAD available in June 1944, next upgrade MAD... ?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ElvisDaKing -- 6/18/2017 1:35:25 AM >

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/22/2017 10:50:15 PM

rustysi

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From: LI, NY
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quote:

MAD available in October 1942

I see that. Hmmm... Never noticed it before, and never seen it in any of my A/C and I've have gone to the end of '42. Don't know what else to say. As I've said AFAIK Japan doesn't get any A/C MAD or radar 'til sometime in '44.

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/22/2017 11:24:31 PM

Lowpe

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It is the experience level that really makes those 70ASW skill pilots terrifying. Don't believe me....create a squadron of 80+ exp and 70+ASW and watch them rack up the kills.

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/23/2017 10:43:31 AM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
It is the experience level that really makes those 70ASW skill pilots terrifying. Don't believe me....create a squadron of 80+ exp and 70+ASW and watch them rack up the kills

I trained my starting 70+ exp Allied CV bomber pilots in ASW. Since then the pair of CVs acts like a really effective mobile ASW platform on the off days. ASW at 80% at 1000m reports 1-2 hits (and more attacks) each turn for each sub in a killzone (3.5 hex radius for SBD-3s).
Ironman AI had an awful concentration of subs in the Coral Sea at start. Not any more.

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/23/2017 1:48:27 PM

BBfanboy

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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
It is the experience level that really makes those 70ASW skill pilots terrifying. Don't believe me....create a squadron of 80+ exp and 70+ASW and watch them rack up the kills

I trained my starting 70+ exp Allied CV bomber pilots in ASW. Since then the pair of CVs acts like a really effective mobile ASW platform on the off days. ASW at 80% at 1000m reports 1-2 hits (and more attacks) each turn for each sub in a killzone (3.5 hex radius for SBD-3s).
Ironman AI had an awful concentration of subs in the Coral Sea at start. Not any more.

The game doesn't do aircraft altitude in meters, so do you mean 1000 feet or 3000 feet?

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/23/2017 3:12:07 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
The game doesn't do aircraft altitude in meters, so do you mean 1000 feet or 3000 feet?

1000f indeed

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/23/2017 10:22:22 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
The game doesn't do aircraft altitude in meters, so do you mean 1000 feet or 3000 feet?

1000f indeed

Thanks for clarifying that. I said the same thing about ASW at 1000 feet being most effective and was stomped on by those who held that 5000 feet works just as well and has a better chance of detecting a sub (greater horizon). It looks like your experience is more in line with mine.

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/24/2017 10:34:43 AM

Alpha77

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The early arriving MAD is the Allied one I guess.

When I have a plane with 8 normal range and 10 extended. I set the unit to 10 range at asw patrol. Will it use the reduced load or the full load, it should be the latter cause asw range is halfed.

I had good results with 1k - 4k height. Is it possible Allies get a bonus, cause I remember even untrained and low exp air flying asw from PH (in 42) reported a lot of hits on IJN subs. While the same untrained units on IJ side do not.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 6/24/2017 10:35:13 AM >

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/24/2017 4:50:11 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Thanks for clarifying that. I said the same thing about ASW at 1000 feet being most effective and was stomped on by those who held that 5000 feet works just as well and has a better chance of detecting a sub (greater horizon). It looks like your experience is more in line with mine.

I haven't run any tests comparing different ASW settings so cannot comment on what is better. Like my results fine the way they are

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/24/2017 5:27:16 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Thanks for clarifying that. I said the same thing about ASW at 1000 feet being most effective and was stomped on by those who held that 5000 feet works just as well and has a better chance of detecting a sub (greater horizon). It looks like your experience is more in line with mine.

I haven't run any tests comparing different ASW settings so cannot comment on what is better. Like my results fine the way they are

Yeah, but what I am saying is that you and I would not be using the lower altitude unless it was effective. The implication from others was that it is not.

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/24/2017 6:53:31 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Thanks for clarifying that. I said the same thing about ASW at 1000 feet being most effective and was stomped on by those who held that 5000 feet works just as well and has a better chance of detecting a sub (greater horizon). It looks like your experience is more in line with mine

I haven't run any tests comparing different ASW settings so cannot comment on what is better. Like my results fine the way they are

Yeah, but what I am saying is that you and I would not be using the lower altitude unless it was effective. The implication from others was that it is not.

Oh, life in economics taught me that people tend to stick to their choices and cherry-pick evidence of those choices' effectiveness

Regular game has too few observations and no rigorous comparison, so nothing can be said about actual relative effectiveness of practices w/o testing. I might test it later.

Edit: should've worded myself better.
What I meant is picking and remembering evidence matching prior beliefs is usually subconscious. It is part of the confirmation bias, typical for how every human brain works. Hence I try to not trust myself with arriving to conclusions using only regular game observations.

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 6/24/2017 8:55:07 PM >

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RE: ASW Air Mission - 6/24/2017 11:25:57 PM

BBfanboy

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Agreed that testing is required to determine if higher altitudes lead to more attack and/or more hits. Again, all I am saying is that my experience/observation/bowl of cherries shows enough effectiveness to make me continue to use it.

None of the people criticizing the choice of 1000 feet altitude for ASW said they had tried it for a significant period, so I was not convinced that their experience was any better than mine. I am easy to convince if there is evidence, even an experienced player saying he had tried both and found a different altitude to be "better".

Empirical testing is great for those that know how/have the patience to carry it out, but usually the word of experienced players has not led me astray. I have been putting my ASW patrols at 1K, 2K, 3K and 4K feet and so far have not noticed a difference in sighting rate - but it's a new game and my patrolling aircraft pilots are still pretty green.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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ASW Air Mission