How to coordinate Air strikes

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How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/3/2017 11:45:38 PM

Lubaru

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I am finding so difficult to coordinate strikes. I have just assumed all along that when you create a strike mission you would get the opportunity to set the mission waypoints like when you do a manual missile attack tomahawk missles, and I am now seeing that this is incorrect. Basically the AI determines the waypoints automatically. This is a problem when you have multiple strike packages heading to different targets but they need to cross into enemy airspace at the same time for example. This seems a very basic feature I am surprised it is not in the game. How could this not be in the game or addressed already. Or am I missing something obvious. I am new to some of this so I could be overlooking something. How do you all coordinate strikes? Is there a way to create a strike mission have them launch and loiter at a jumping off point until designated time that gives other strike missions time to launch and get to their jumping off point so that all strikes can actually commence at the same time.

ps using activation time does not help because when you have multiple strike packages leaving the same airbase somebody has to be first and by the time the last package finally forms up with all its elements and heads to target the first package already 3/4 way to its target.

< Message edited by Lubaru -- 6/3/2017 11:55:53 PM >

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/4/2017 12:59:54 AM

Eggstor

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A nice "fudge" I picked up from others (like Stoic Frog) is to send the various groups to one or more rally points (either manually or through support missions), then assign them to the various stike missions once they are properly assembled. I believe this can also be done through Lua if you're designing a scenario, but don't ask me how as I don't know enough Lua to be dangerous with it.

(in reply to Lubaru)

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/4/2017 1:53:47 AM

Lubaru

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No definitely don't want LUAs. Tried what you mentioned but with more than 40 ac involved it became so tedious launching and trying to reassemble everyone with their varied loadouts in the correct attack groups was Hades, and not worth doing again.

I have attached a scen example. Metallica hits Kuum Ni, Boston hits Koksan, and Iron Maiden hits Hwangju. There are 3 highlighted ref points named for the strike along the boarder, the respective packages need to arrive here at the same time (relatively) before crossing enemy air space. Is there an efficient way a person could do this.

Thanks

Attachment (1)

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/4/2017 2:38:54 AM

ExNusquam

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As Eggstor said, what you want to do is create "marshal" missions for your strikers. Basically, create a support mission (or missions if you want to attack separate targets). Place these missions the same distance from your IPs (outside OPFOR radar coverage is best), and once all the aircraft are on station, assign them to the strike missions and they will ingress to the target. If you want to get really fancy, you can assign activation times to the marshal missions so that the aircraft will all arrive in them at roughly the same time.

My personal preference is to assign aircraft to a marshal mission, then micro it's push to target. I usually use locked ref points to synchronize ingress routes and a spreadsheet to keep track of the timing.

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/4/2017 3:46:00 AM

Lubaru

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I tried using a single marshaling point but proved to be unworkable. I may try using multiple and see if that works. If so I guess that is better than nothing, but shouldn't a game of this level not to mention cost have addressed something as innate and basic to mission planning as this? Im sure it sounds whinny, but it really let me down when I discovered this after putting many, many hours into planning the difficult aspects of this strike on my end and I just assumed the game could/would handle the basics on its end. I don't want this to ruin the experience but needless to say my enthusiasm for this is not what it was. I will try to get back into it and do what you suggested, otherwise I wont be able to continue to enjoy and like this game. If not maybe just a temporary hiatus from Command will return my enthusiasm.

Good Luck.

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/4/2017 9:01:39 AM

BlueSky

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I'm also suffering by this peoblem. Because CAMNO is lack the ability of mission planning, I counld't control the unit passing a exact ref point repeatly. How does this be done by lua? Could anyone give me some tips?

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/4/2017 9:15:47 AM

Peter66

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A good majority of using Command involves planning of some description. Very few scenarios centre around one or two units under your control. Moving these assets around is part of the challenge and Command gives you various tools to help you. As previously stated above, having areas for aircraft to regroup before an attack is a great option and one I use myself.

Lubaru consider the fact of how free form the scenarios are in Command. You can literally tell the aircraft where to regroup, at what altitude, what speed and their EMCON and ROE. All of this is important, even if we had the option to choose a regroup point you would have to consider these options. Then you have the issue of multiple groups as strike assets are often split in to different groups. I personally find it easier to have multiple form up zones. Then there is the problem of how to synchronise them all, which is already implemented via the mission planner. All in all, it boils back down to the currently implemented mission planner which fulfills the requirements for successful mission planning.

Maybe look at what you are doing on your end and see if you can improve your general planning strategy. Often I've found the issue is not with Command but rather how I approach a given situation. The more planning you put in the more chance of success you have.

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/4/2017 9:48:26 PM

Lubaru

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter66

A good majority of using Command involves planning of some description. Very few scenarios centre around one or two units under your control. Moving these assets around is part of the challenge and Command gives you various tools to help you. As previously stated above, having areas for aircraft to regroup before an attack is a great option and one I use myself.

Lubaru consider the fact of how free form the scenarios are in Command. You can literally tell the aircraft where to regroup, at what altitude, what speed and their EMCON and ROE. All of this is important, even if we had the option to choose a regroup point you would have to consider these options. Then you have the issue of multiple groups as strike assets are often split in to different groups. I personally find it easier to have multiple form up zones. Then there is the problem of how to synchronise them all, which is already implemented via the mission planner. All in all, it boils back down to the currently implemented mission planner which fulfills the requirements for successful mission planning.

Maybe look at what you are doing on your end and see if you can improve your general planning strategy. Often I've found the issue is not with Command but rather how I approach a given situation. The more planning you put in the more chance of success you have.

I appreciate your input. But it is not that simple and really does not work. Have you actually tried what you are saying with strikes that use escorts. I have attached a scen with description in the post above. If you want give it a try and tell me what kind of results you get. See if you can get the three strike groups to execute according to the strike missions "Heart", "Boston", and "Metallica" as I have established them using the attached escorts. If you can reassign them from a Marshalling mission to the strike missions I have designed, and from that point the designed missions take over control and complete the strikes along with their escorts, then I will agree with what you are saying and gladly be corrected.

I just noticed that there is a request for a Strike Mission Planner on the features request thread. Sounds as though this may be what I am asking for. Hope this is a priority for future features.

< Message edited by Lubaru -- 6/4/2017 10:21:44 PM >

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/5/2017 2:52:31 AM

ExNusquam

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For what it's worth, you posted one of the Command Live scenarios - if someone doesn't have that, they won't be able to help you.

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/5/2017 1:29:22 PM

Peter66

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Lubaru I have tested and use the method I described. I feel that your issue is in your planning stages. Currently I don't own the Live DLC's so I'm unable to try your scenario you posted. However I will say this, the more you take in to account fuel consumption, loadouts ranges and time to each target and time on target you will have more success in planning strikes.

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/5/2017 1:33:36 PM

Cik

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put up a lot of tankers and then bandbox all of your units that need to go to target, refuel all of them simultaneously then send them all in together with a strike assign.

but yeah it's suboptimal. patiently waiting on strike planner.

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/5/2017 2:39:59 PM

Primarchx

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I don't like sloppy airstrikes and preventable losses. So I micro-manage all airstrikes. Launch aircraft, usually send them to distant rally locations and run them at Loiter until all a/c in in the stream catch up. Then attack using terrain, EW, simultaneous stand-off cruise missile strikes and other diversions to assist in the attack. Sometimes I'll ingress at a medium altitude to get any 'quiet' SAM sites to light up, then dive for VLOW and have escorting SEAD do their thing.

I just don't think that outstanding and adaptive tactics can be baked into an AI. Looking forward to the strike editor proving me wrong, though!

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/5/2017 3:16:43 PM

whraven

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I've also used the marshal system to coordinate strikes, and it does work nicely. I find it a very useful compromise between micro-management (which I don't care for) and letting the A.I. fully handle mission execution. One modification I use is to set the support mission to have two reference points and have several (I generally use three (3)) such missions set up near each other. In order to minimize differences in launch times, I launch aircraft manually, even if they're assigned to missions so I have more control over launch order. The aircraft arrive and tend to string out and loiter along the two-point lines, which results in a very nice multi-point attack when I assign them to the strike (or AAW/SEAD patrol over the strike area).

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/5/2017 3:32:48 PM

Lowlaner2012

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I looked up strike package diagrams from the Vietnam war, that helped me a bit when forming up my airstrikes :)

< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 6/5/2017 3:35:50 PM >

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/6/2017 4:35:53 AM

Lubaru

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter66

Lubaru I have tested and use the method I described. I feel that your issue is in your planning stages. Currently I don't own the Live DLC's so I'm unable to try your scenario you posted. However I will say this, the more you take in to account fuel consumption, loadouts ranges and time to each target and time on target you will have more success in planning strikes.

If you have ever tried to use Marshaling and then reassign the ac to the strike mission you will get an error message stating that "the loadout for the ac is not appropriate for the target, air craft not assigned to the mission." This is what I meant by asking if you have ever tried marshaling method with escorts.

Yes I spent many hours planning the strike with, selecting the ac appropriate loadouts for the particular targets, modified WRA for each weapon used, EMCON, Refuel, etc. It is really not an issue of enough or not enough planning. The issue is that once the aircraft are launched and then reassigned to strike mission from a marshaling point you lose a lot of functionality of the mission editor (like the assignment of escorts mentioned above).
Forgot you may not have DLC. I can upload a generic scenario when I get back, but you should be able to test in any scenario if you like.

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/6/2017 7:35:54 AM

Dan109

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I agree with the OP's complaint - IMO, the biggest problem with the Strike ME is the lack of Marshalling - a 50 aircraft strike will get shredded as they all lolly gag-into the area 2-4 at a time. And as the OP says, if using a work around marshalling area like a support mission, escort missions don't work - hence I just use AAW and SEAD Patrols for my escorts. Without using a support mission marshalling area, half your bombers can be dead by the time the escorts make first contact - thats why I only use strike-only if its an UNcontested area.

< Message edited by Dan109 -- 6/6/2017 7:38:53 AM >

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/7/2017 2:10:39 PM

Phoenix100

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Lubaru is precisely right - when you try to reassign problems arise - one of which is the error message he posts - 'the loadout for the ac is not appropriate...etc' And I understand everyone is waiting for the Advanced Strike Planner two years down the line or so, BUT, Lubaru's question was good, I hope - ie; there must be a way that he and I (and others?) are doing something wrong if it's not possible to do it in the way suggested. Can someone who knows how to do it right explain? By 'it' I mean send up three packages and their intended escorts, say, marshall them all somewhere, then slot them into pre-arranged strike missions, escorts attached etc? Does no one else et that error - 'the loadout for the ac is not apropriate for the target...' etc?

Here's what happens:

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by phoenix -- 6/7/2017 2:16:33 PM >

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/7/2017 5:49:28 PM

mikmykWS

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You can just launch as groups and then plot to point to marshal. Using the mission planner for marshaling is pretty inefficient.

In general I'd wait for the coming strike planner to get the higher level stuff automated. My sense is it will solve most of these issues.

Thanks

Mike

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/7/2017 5:58:02 PM

CCIP-subsim

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I have to confess that the only time I actually use "strike" missions is when I need to rapidly assign a whole pile of planes/groups that are already near the action area to a specific and fairly large set of targets, which are mixed up together with objects I don't want to target, with minimal click-work. Because of the finicky coordination with strike missions on their own, I prefer either doing a bit of micromanagement and assigning targets manually when I need precision, or using patrol missions when all I want is for my planes to hit something in a general area. I used to worry about this being a problem when there's lots of units to deal with, but honestly I've not actually had that much difficulty even with very large packages.

But yes, the promised new strike planner would be very welcome!

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/7/2017 6:23:26 PM

Eggstor

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Judging from the attached photo, you're attempting to add air-to-air-equipped units directly to a land strike rather than adding them as escort. The "escort" tab needs to be active instead of the "strike/air intercept" tab.

An alternate way to add an airborne unit/group to a mission as escort is to right-click on the unit/group to bring up a pop-up menu, scroll to "Assign to mission" in the pop-up menu, then select "[Mission name] - escort". That method doesn't require that the unit/group first be unassigned from its current mission, but it only works on one unit/group at a time.

As for the test scenario in the third post, there is a major issue with the scenario itself. The added facilities at Kunsan hosting the Boston/Iron Maiden/Metallica aircraft aren't grouped to either the existing airbase or any other runway/runway access point combo, so those aircraft won't take off, at least in the current hotfix 936.16 build.

< Message edited by Eggstor -- 6/7/2017 6:25:15 PM >

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/8/2017 2:40:57 AM

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I don't know if this is the right page for this question, but is there a strike planner for missile strikes? I would like to do a coordinated, time on target missile strike where i fire the missiles from either the same unit or from multiple units but the missiles all impact the targets at the same time.

If this is the wrong page for this, let me know and I will post it somewhere else.

Thank you for your help and comments.

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/8/2017 4:24:51 AM

Lubaru

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Single strikes (not coordinated with other strikes) have always worked well. Let me explain so I can brag on the strike mission in the mission editor and then try to explain the downside with coordinating strikes as I have experienced it.

Creating a single air field strike mission composed of ground strike with for example two elements with GBU 24's and two elements with SDB's. GBU 24 AC target only runways and access points. Each runway capable target gets 2 GBU 24's and each Access point gets 1), While SDB AC target only tarmacs with one bomb and hardened AC shelters with 2 bombs. That is actual strike portion there is also two other elements designated as escort elements one for SEAD and one for A2A. Again all done using only the mission editor and each element getting their own WRA's etc from within the mission editor. The game handles this actually very well, in my experience it has played out... well almost to perfection. And is really fun to just sit back and watch it unfold. As these attack ac follow their way-points with both escort types right there with them engaging their targets as specified in the mission editor then the strike ac reaching their launch points and unloading on the designated targets with the correct ordinance and exact number of bombs. And this is all done with the units in groups by the way. That is also important because in groups they are much easier to track, and control should you need to intervene- and it just looks better. But I have watched the AI handle this so well that it is like watching something from a Tom Clancy movie. The caveat is that the planning is all done upfront with the mission editor and relying heavily on WRA menu. The marshaling method I think has its place but it is less about planning and more about sending the AC up and then micro managing them from there.

Anyway as I have said the game handles maintaining the integrity of the mission as specified in the editor pretty well, it is when I needed to have two more of those kind of strikes leave and execute simultaneously that things go bad. And you are left with either letting them conduct the strikes out of sync (ie not simultaneously) in which you give up the element of surprise, or using marshaling which throws some of that detail planning done in the mission editor out the window. Mik, just read where you said to wait for the ASP, well that is indeed good news. I am glad it is still a go. Hope we will also be able to set waypoints etc from the strike planner.

I know some people don't use the mission editor for strikes but for me there is nothing more thrilling than watching it all unfold just like you planned, even if you take a beating from the enemy defenses. Not saying I am even that good at it- far from it just recently figured out how to make work for me on single strikes but if anyone wants, I will make a scen with every thing setup the way I do it and post it so all you have to do is start it and observe and make suggestions

< Message edited by Lubaru -- 6/8/2017 4:28:07 AM >

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/8/2017 4:26:47 AM

kevinkins

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Time on target has come up previously but I can't remember or find the thread. Maybe someone will answer here. If not, you can start another topic since it is worthy of discussion.

Kevin

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RE: How to coordinate Air strikes - 6/8/2017 4:45:46 AM

Lubaru

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eggstor

Judging from the attached photo, you're attempting to add air-to-air-equipped units directly to a land strike rather than adding them as escort. The "escort" tab needs to be active instead of the "strike/air intercept" tab.

An alternate way to add an airborne unit/group to a mission as escort is to right-click on the unit/group to bring up a pop-up menu, scroll to "Assign to mission" in the pop-up menu, then select "[Mission name] - escort". That method doesn't require that the unit/group first be unassigned from its current mission, but it only works on one unit/group at a time.

As for the test scenario in the third post, there is a major issue with the scenario itself. The added facilities at Kunsan hosting the Boston/Iron Maiden/Metallica aircraft aren't grouped to either the existing airbase or any other runway/runway access point combo, so those aircraft won't take off, at least in the current hotfix 936.16 build.

Actually the image and what he is saying is correct. You have to assign it to the Mission before you can designate (check mark) it as an escort, and what he is showing is that after unassining the ac from a marshaling it wont let you get them back into the strike mission to be designate as the strikes "Escorts". It now just rejects them as not compatible with the target for some reason. I know it sounds counter intuitive but the actual tabs being active don't affect the designation of the AC. I thought that too in the beginning when I was experimenting. You can have any ac with any loadout added to the mission with either tab active. Only after you check the boxes for "Escort" next to the AC already added to the mission dose the Escort tab mean anything.

With regard to the second part of you question. I may have screwed it up. Let me start fresh and I will try to get a better example posted. Sorry about that.

< Message edited by Lubaru -- 6/8/2017 4:59:52 AM >

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