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OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vessel O... - 6/17/2017 12:07:15 AM   
MakeeLearn


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Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vessel Off Coast Of Japan


"The U.S. Navy says one of its destroyers, USS Fitzgerald, collided with a Philippine-flagged merchant vessel off the coast of Japan. The collision with the container ship ACX Crystal took place around 2:30 a.m. Saturday local time."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-navy-asia-idUSKBN1972SW

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCO1Bb4c3t4

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/16/533265027/u-s-navy-destroyer-collides-with-merchant-vessel-off-coast-of-japan









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< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 6/17/2017 12:09:39 AM >
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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 12:23:36 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		hard to believe that in this "radar era" there are still ship collisions

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 12:45:34 AM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		Strange damage pattern, also they say it is "listing" and taking on water, but seems only some superstructure damage?

Btw, these DDs seem pretty big, more like a light cruiser I realized from the pics

Ok, the other ship is much bigger, this explains the damage probably...see here acx crystal:



< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 6/17/2017 12:54:33 AM >

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 1:12:14 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		Oooo, someone's Naval career just took a turn for the worst.

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 1:13:42 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		From what I heard on the news, the destroyer has damage below the waterline, though it isn't obvious from the pictures. I guess some crew members of the DD are missing.

I think the DD's captain might be looking at the end of his career. You would think the radar on both ships would have given both ships clear warning.

Bill

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 1:53:31 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Most large ships these days have the "forefoot" projecting ahead of the ship to reduce the bow wave and thus save fuel. So the forefoot likely punched into the hull underwater and the clipper bow damaged the bridge, but the knife edge of the bow did not cleave into the DD.

Radar may have shown them but in a crowded bay entrance there may have been lots of maneuvering to avoid other ships too. It wouldn't take many mistakes to end up on the wrong course and if both ships change in the same direction to avoid the collision ... you get an 'oops'.

Since the DD was not cut in half, it looks like the container ship captain knew it could not turn away in time so it reversed its engines.

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 3:00:58 AM   
nashvillen


Posts: 3836
Joined: 7/3/2006
From: Christiana, TN
Status: offline 		Look at the pic of the ACX, BBfanboy has it right, the bowbulb has punched a large hole in the hull below the waterline more than likely.

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 3:01:37 AM   
rjopel

 

Posts: 614
Joined: 12/19/2007
From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Check out the bulb on the front of the cargo ship. Probably punched a big hole below the waterline at 2am.

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Post #: 8
RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 4:28:07 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		The damage on both ships indicates that one or the other conning officer failed to obey the International Rules of the Road. Somebody's career as a ship's officer has most certainly ended. Failing to conform to the IRR without losing your "license" essentially means no collision occurs.

The IRR would have the two ships passing starboard side to (starboard ((the right side to you landbubbers) in the direction of the other ship). Hate to say it but I'm guessing Ensign/Ltjg on the USS Fitzgerald will be the one who gets hanged (figuratively).

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Post #: 9
RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 4:45:54 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
Looks to me that they were travelling in the same direction as USS Fitzgerald had damage to the starboard and the container ship had damage to her port bow.


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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 4:59:55 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		The investigation will sort it out. I would guess that there would be more damage further astern on both ships had they been traveling in something like the same direction. I'm not the one with the ship's logs though.

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Post #: 11
RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 1:37:40 PM   
Sundowners


Posts: 33
Joined: 3/11/2017
From: Georgiada
Status: offline 		Not just RADAR, but all commercial vessels (> 250T I believe) are required to have an AIS transponder that continually transmits the vessel's course, speed, and other data. The DD has, or should have, both military and commercial receivers that can get the AIS data. So most likely cause will turn out to be human failure as is the case in most collisions at sea.
We can all hope for a miracle and the seven unaccounted sailors are still alive. Another, most likely preventable, tragedy.

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Post #: 12
RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 8:44:36 PM   
LeeChard

 

Posts: 1099
Joined: 9/12/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		I too am stunned that this can happen with all the electronic aids to navigation available.

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/17/2017 11:18:32 PM   
pmelheck1

 

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Alabama
Status: offline 		so just how did the DD sail as to hit the bow of a ship with it's side. I always thought that ships sailed with the pointed or rounded end going first rather than the sides going first and ramming the bow of a ship. news states that the DD rammed the container ship. I might understand if the dd was hit because it didn't got out of the way but that would imply the DD was struck not hitting the other ship as is being reported. So if our ship hit the container as is being reported wouldn't damage at least be more forward on our ship and not on the bow of the container? I know we have conards on aircraft that allow them to fly sideways sort of but haven't heard of them on ships before now.

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/18/2017 1:36:03 AM   
patrickl


Posts: 1530
Joined: 6/20/2002
From: Singapore
Status: offline 		Our Singapore Navy got a similar accident, RSN Courageous, a patrol craft collided with a tanker some 15 km north east of Singapore near South China Sea in Jan 2003. 4 female sailors sleeping in the aft bunk were killed. The ship was conned by a trainee under the supervision of the executive officer. The trainee was trying to speed up to pass a tanker ahead but was too slow to avoid the incoming tanker. The court found the executive officer and trainee guilty and fined them and then the Navy sacked them. The body of one of the dead sailor was never recovered. May her soul rest in peace.

The link : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS_Courageous

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/18/2017 2:32:44 AM   
nashvillen


Posts: 3836
Joined: 7/3/2006
From: Christiana, TN
Status: offline 		Reports are some of the missing sailors have been found in the previously unaccessible compartments. How many and who they are the USN is staying understandably tight-lipped about.

Edit: Sad to say an update to this report that all seven were found deceased. Fair winds and following seas. :(

< Message edited by nashvillen -- 6/18/2017 2:52:29 AM >

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/18/2017 4:12:47 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

so just how did the DD sail as to hit the bow of a ship with it's side. I always thought that ships sailed with the pointed or rounded end going first rather than the sides going first and ramming the bow of a ship. news states that the DD rammed the container ship.


If the ships were of comparable size your question would seem reasonable. The picture might be clearer to you if there was a picture of the two ships side by side. The USN ship is reported to be big ( ~9000 tons) but it is less than a 1/3 the size of the container-ship (~30000 tons). In the photo of the container-ship that is included it appears that the overhang of the main deck forward near the bow is 15 ft on either side.


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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/18/2017 8:11:24 PM   
Bearcat2

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 2/14/2004
Status: offline 		Strange path by the container ship according to this site:

http://halturnershow.com/index.php/news/world-news/629-it-appears-deliberate-cargo-ship-made-sharp-u-turn-to-hit-us-navy-ship-broadside

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/18/2017 8:45:51 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Maybe the ship's captain got radicalised? you never know.

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/19/2017 1:56:57 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Maybe the ship's captain got radicalised? you never know.


Even if the container ship was purposely trying to ram the destroyer, the speed and maneuver rates of a freighter vs a destroyer would make this impossible, unless you have a serious neglect of duty. I mean why they didn't call "general quarters". That enough would had probably saved the lives of those sleeping sailors

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/19/2017 5:10:09 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Maybe the ship's captain got radicalised? you never know.

It's not likely, but it struck me that the North Koreans might just have bribed that merchie captain.

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/19/2017 9:10:53 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I'm sure we'll learn more in the coming weeks. My guess is a mix of human error and possibly equipment failure. Maybe the destroyer had a green ensign standing his or her first watch alone on the bridge (it was the middle of the night) and called out the wrong directions when things got critical. The freighter may have had an equipment failure that had it running blind.

Occam's Razor is usually the best explanation for these things. Actually finding a US destroyer in the middle of the ocean, then managing to run it down with a much slower and less maneuverable ship is a pretty unlikely scenario. If a crazed merchant captain was trying to ram another ship, he or she would either do it in port with a stationary warship, or it would likely go down as a close call on the high seas and the Japanese coast guard would be opening an investigation that could result in the captain losing their license for no gain.

There are lots of ways to damage US warships if somebody really wanted to. Doing it with a merchant ship at sea is one of the least effective unless you have a Q ship.

Bill

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/19/2017 2:53:50 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I'm sure we'll learn more in the coming weeks. My guess is a mix of human error and possibly equipment failure. Maybe the destroyer had a green ensign standing his or her first watch alone on the bridge (it was the middle of the night) and called out the wrong directions when things got critical. The freighter may have had an equipment failure that had it running blind.

Occam's Razor is usually the best explanation for these things. Actually finding a US destroyer in the middle of the ocean, then managing to run it down with a much slower and less maneuverable ship is a pretty unlikely scenario. If a crazed merchant captain was trying to ram another ship, he or she would either do it in port with a stationary warship, or it would likely go down as a close call on the high seas and the Japanese coast guard would be opening an investigation that could result in the captain losing their license for no gain.

There are lots of ways to damage US warships if somebody really wanted to. Doing it with a merchant ship at sea is one of the least effective unless you have a Q ship.

Bill


A few comments on the accident.

The extent of the damage is due to the freighter having a bulbous bow. You can't see the extensive damage done to the DD below the water line.

A U turn for a slow large freighter might be unusual but can't be called radical. Slow large ships really can't make a radical turn.

U turn or not, the positioning of the ships and the area of the collision suggests that the freighter had the right of way.

The investigation has now determined that the U turn happened after the collision-probably in an attempt to assist after the fact.

In some ways, Cronin said, it didn’t matter who had the right of way in this case. “In my mind, our destroyer is a more capable, agile ship, so regardless of who has right of way, our ship should be able to take evasive action,” he said.

A modern DD has a bridge watch of multiple men while a cargo ship will have two or three-if the captain is present. Even if the cargo ship is found to be at fault, (which I doubt) the careers of the captain of the DD and every officer on watch at the time are pretty much in the toilet. The Navy will find no excuse for a highly maneuverable warship to not recognize and avoid the danger of an immediate collision by a slower and less maneuverable ship.

The only exception would be major equipment failure. That happens at sea more than we would like to think.

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/19/2017 4:36:52 PM   
wolfclan

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 10/19/2010
Status: offline 		From news reports, it seems the CO was in his sea cabin, which indicates to me that the OOD didn't think there was a potential problem. The weather was good, so one would think CIC would have had good radar and the bridge a good visual of the navigation lights. However, there are merchants, who are not rigorous about their lighting, which can cause confusion. It seems that the watch just lost track of that particular contact in a busy shipping lane. I know it has happened to me, but other members of the watch were alert.

< Message edited by wolfclan -- 6/19/2017 4:49:29 PM >

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/19/2017 6:38:47 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfclan

From news reports, it seems the CO was in his sea cabin, which indicates to me that the OOD didn't think there was a potential problem. The weather was good, so one would think CIC would have had good radar and the bridge a good visual of the navigation lights. However, there are merchants, who are not rigorous about their lighting, which can cause confusion. It seems that the watch just lost track of that particular contact in a busy shipping lane. I know it has happened to me, but other members of the watch were alert.


Yep, probably a series of human failures and false assumption. But even though the captain was not present, the captain is always responsible. That is the way its been and always was..Even, the captain of the freighter probably bears some responsibility. Will just have to wait for the investigation to run it's course. Sad, but big ships on the water are always dangerous things.

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/19/2017 7:17:00 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Next time they should pay attention to Captain's Trimmer advice:





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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/19/2017 8:07:42 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		There was a time, I was just fishin' for sunfish, close kin of blue gills but not as pretty, I was standin' up in my canoe when this bass boat ran into me. I had no idea that anything like this could happen in the State of Missourah, but here it did and I was hornswaggled to say the least. All my bait was knocked over the side and swam away. I don't think most states allow this sort of thing and I'm amazed that Missourah does, but, well, there you have it.

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/19/2017 8:13:02 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

There was a time, I was just fishin' for sunfish, close kin of blue gills but not as pretty, I was standin' up in my canoe when this bass boat ran into me. I had no idea that anything like this could happen in the State of Missourah, but here it did and I was hornswaggled to say the least. All my bait was knocked over the side and swam away. I don't think most states allow this sort of thing and I'm amazed that Missourah does, but, well, there you have it.


The offender had a bass boat. He had the right of way

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/19/2017 8:41:31 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

There was a time, I was just fishin' for sunfish, close kin of blue gills but not as pretty, I was standin' up in my canoe when this bass boat ran into me. I had no idea that anything like this could happen in the State of Missourah, but here it did and I was hornswaggled to say the least. All my bait was knocked over the side and swam away. I don't think most states allow this sort of thing and I'm amazed that Missourah does, but, well, there you have it.


The offender had a bass boat. He had the right of way

Not to mention the 12 empty beer cans ...

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RE: OT: U.S. Navy Destroyer Collides With Merchant Vess... - 6/20/2017 12:37:50 AM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		I'll bet the boat hit your Gorn vessel was skippered by a bass named Todd, who you correctly called a stupid bass Todd.

Sad to condemn a skipper who was in his cabin and not summoned to the bridge. The bridge watch are well and truly screwed.

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