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TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/20/2017 5:41:39 AM

U47

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I'm deciding on which series to buy. I know WIF isn't finished, but the naval aspects interest me not to mention the game encompasses the whole war. I have no experience with the TOAW series, but I've always read great things about it. In short which one should I buy. Thanks to all who reply. Regards Scapa

Post #: 1

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/20/2017 7:48:14 AM

salazarus

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I would wait for TOAW 4. TOAW 3 is great game but 4 should be released soon. WIF is a mess and It is only single player. I don't think they are capable finishing it in foreseeable future.

(in reply to U47)

Post #: 2

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/20/2017 3:28:07 PM

MrsWargamer

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TOAW. Mainly because WiF is just one game, even if incredible, it is just one game.

TOAW is like every board game I have ever seen.

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Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

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Post #: 3

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/20/2017 4:27:09 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: U47

I'm deciding on which series to buy. I know WIF isn't finished, but the naval aspects interest me not to mention the game encompasses the whole war. I have no experience with the TOAW series, but I've always read great things about it. In short which one should I buy. Thanks to all who reply. Regards Scapa

warspite1

Hi U-47. Plenty of issues with MWIF sadly and I'm happy to go into those if you want and try and answer any concerns you have. However, it helps not to be told rubbish. MWIF - as you can see from the AAR section - is NOT single player only. Plenty of people are playing PBEM.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to U47)

Post #: 4

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/21/2017 2:10:56 AM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: U47

I'm deciding on which series to buy. I know WIF isn't finished, but the naval aspects interest me not to mention the game encompasses the whole war. I have no experience with the TOAW series, but I've always read great things about it. In short which one should I buy. Thanks to all who reply. Regards Scapa

warspite1

Hi U-47. Plenty of issues with MWIF sadly and I'm happy to go into those if you want and try and answer any concerns you have. However, it helps not to be told rubbish. MWIF - as you can see from the AAR section - is NOT single player only. Plenty of people are playing PBEM.

You mean netplay, old bean?

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 5

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/21/2017 2:41:33 AM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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My advice depends on your finances. If things are a bit tight, I'd wait for TOAW 4. If you can afford it, I'd seriously consider MWiF as well.

The general quality of the game system, its global nature (with the associated naval stuff that interests you), your complete control of everything from politics, resource movement, production, strategy and tactics; really recommends it.

It doesn't have an AI yet but much work has been done on that behind the scenes and Steve, the developer, is being very disciplined about a logical task list that has AI implementation coming up. He's an incredibly patient and dedicated man, and he's proved all the naysayers wrong since he took over the project.

Plenty of people are playing MWiF online using Skype or some-such to communicate in game (which is probably essential due to the to-and-fro required within each game phase). Then there's hot-seat, and it's also eminently suitable for solitaire play.

There's a lot to learn if you're unfamiliar with WiF, and I'm doing that while playing solitaire. I have a friend who also lives in Hobart who used to play WiF so we might play some hot-seat. When I get more confident I might try netplay.

So, I'm not too worried about waiting for the AI. Also, I've plenty of other things to do and games to play. TOAW 3 for example

Here's where I recently managed to defeat a friend in the Kharkov 1942 scenario. Historically, this was a ham-fisted Soviet Spring offensive that ended in catastrophe, the death or capture of 300,000 Red Army troops and an enormous hole being blown in the Eastern Front; through which the Heer poured as part of their Summer offensive.

Against an admittedly inexperienced opponent, I managed to rewrite history and encircle the German Southern pincer in a Stalingrad-scale pocket. As the scenario ended their desperate attempts to escape the noose were bleeding them white. Heh Heh Heh. Now perhaps Stalin will let my wife out of that camp

Cheers, Neilster

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Neilster -- 6/21/2017 2:44:02 AM >

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 6

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/21/2017 4:21:22 AM

warspite1

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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: U47

I'm deciding on which series to buy. I know WIF isn't finished, but the naval aspects interest me not to mention the game encompasses the whole war. I have no experience with the TOAW series, but I've always read great things about it. In short which one should I buy. Thanks to all who reply. Regards Scapa

warspite1

Hi U-47. Plenty of issues with MWIF sadly and I'm happy to go into those if you want and try and answer any concerns you have. However, it helps not to be told rubbish. MWIF - as you can see from the AAR section - is NOT single player only. Plenty of people are playing PBEM.

You mean netplay, old bean?

Cheers, Neilster

warspite1

No, I mean PBEM. Netplay is still being tested but I am not aware of the extent to which this works properly. AllenK, Mayhemizer, Orm and myself have been playing PBEM for ages, as have others e.g. wifgamer63 and professorhex I believe are using PBEM

_____________________________

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(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 7

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/21/2017 5:04:06 AM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

No, I mean PBEM. Netplay is still being tested but I am not aware of the extent to which this works properly. AllenK, Mayhemizer, Orm and myself have been playing PBEM for ages, as have others e.g. wifgamer63 and professorhex I believe are using PBEM

I see. But this isn't the "official" PBEM, which is supposed to use some kind of AI settings to handle intra-phase stuff like air combat interceptions is it?

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 8

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/21/2017 5:44:05 AM

warspite1

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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

No, I mean PBEM. Netplay is still being tested but I am not aware of the extent to which this works properly. AllenK, Mayhemizer, Orm and myself have been playing PBEM for ages, as have others e.g. wifgamer63 and professorhex I believe are using PBEM

I see. But this isn't the "official" PBEM, which is supposed to use some kind of AI settings to handle intra-phase stuff like air combat interceptions is it?

Cheers, Neilster

warspite1

Its not PBEM like that used for games such as DC:B or CTGW. I don't know if that is ever envisaged for MWIF. This is PBEM as in saving the game, zipping it and e-mailing over to your opponent or ally to do their impulse/end of turn or whatever.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 9

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/21/2017 6:03:14 AM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

No, I mean PBEM. Netplay is still being tested but I am not aware of the extent to which this works properly. AllenK, Mayhemizer, Orm and myself have been playing PBEM for ages, as have others e.g. wifgamer63 and professorhex I believe are using PBEM

I see. But this isn't the "official" PBEM, which is supposed to use some kind of AI settings to handle intra-phase stuff like air combat interceptions is it?

Cheers, Neilster

warspite1

Its not PBEM like that used for games such as DC:B or CTGW. I don't know if that is ever envisaged for MWIF. This is PBEM as in saving the game, zipping it and e-mailing over to your opponent or ally to do their impulse/end of turn or whatever.

OK. That's what I thought. You're hand-cranking it. How do you handle intra-phase stuff? Written instructions or does each player do what they think is best for their opponent in a given situation? Else the number of emails would be astronomical.

That's why I think something like I have described, with the player able to setup an AI assistant to handle such stuff, is the plan for the coming MWiF PBEM, although I believe Steve is still mulling things over on that.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 10

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/23/2017 4:31:58 AM

warspite1

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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

No, I mean PBEM. Netplay is still being tested but I am not aware of the extent to which this works properly. AllenK, Mayhemizer, Orm and myself have been playing PBEM for ages, as have others e.g. wifgamer63 and professorhex I believe are using PBEM

I see. But this isn't the "official" PBEM, which is supposed to use some kind of AI settings to handle intra-phase stuff like air combat interceptions is it?

Cheers, Neilster

warspite1

Its not PBEM like that used for games such as DC:B or CTGW. I don't know if that is ever envisaged for MWIF. This is PBEM as in saving the game, zipping it and e-mailing over to your opponent or ally to do their impulse/end of turn or whatever.

OK. That's what I thought. You're hand-cranking it. How do you handle intra-phase stuff? Written instructions or does each player do what they think is best for their opponent in a given situation? Else the number of emails would be astronomical.

That's why I think something like I have described, with the player able to setup an AI assistant to handle such stuff, is the plan for the coming MWiF PBEM, although I believe Steve is still mulling things over on that.

Cheers, Neilster

warspite1

Different people are doing different things. For our PBEM's we have used the AAR thread to communicate. The level of interaction is high, but is surprisingly manageable. Where possible a player will give orders in advance - e.g. The Allies stay until the end, although more typically, the orders can only be decided at the end of each round once the outcome of that round are known - and these are simply communicated via the thread.

For the four player games we have also set up a 'secret' thread which our opponents don't view, in order to communicate strategy. Here are examples of each.

Four player game thread (and you can see from this how orders are communicated during battle)
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4207255

The 'secret' Allied thread
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4060465

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/23/2017 4:45:55 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/23/2017 12:48:09 PM

aaatoysandmore

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At OP; you can't go wrong with any TOAW edition; III being the latest of course. I own them all and anxiously awaiting IV. It's one of the best series of war-games on this site. It offers a lot of everything and not just some canned scenario of one event for $50 but lots of them. Not even sure it's $50 but I think you'll know what I mean when you buy it.

I put it right up there with "Age of Rifles" for that time period.

(in reply to warspite1)

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RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/26/2017 6:47:47 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

you can't go wrong with any TOAW edition

Agree

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 6/26/2017 6:48:02 PM >

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Post #: 13

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/27/2017 4:50:27 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
Then there's hot-seat, and it's also eminently suitable for solitaire play.

you mean "...eminently suitable for solitaire play, other than the lack of AI"?

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 14

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/27/2017 5:08:26 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
Then there's hot-seat, and it's also eminently suitable for solitaire play.

you mean "...eminently suitable for solitaire play, other than the lack of AI"?

warspite1

The game, as everyone knows by now, has no AI. That is fundamentally important to some people and given that I can't see one being implemented for at least 12 months then that would make the game unappealing to those players. I asked a question about forthcoming priorities (optionals vs AI) a week ago and remains unanswered sadly

.

However, the comment that the game is eminently suitable for solitaire play is correct. Because of the game mechanics, solitaire play (i.e. taking both sides) is actually surprisingly good fun and, because of the likelihood* that any AI will be pretty easy to beat, solitaire play is imo just as good - probably better - a way of learning the game as using an AI.

*views on the quality of any AI that can be put in place for such a complex game differ from person to person.

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RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/27/2017 11:10:14 AM

Lobster

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Dear lord. Please people use words. You do understand that not everyone on the planet knows what MWIF, WIF, CTGW, DC:B and any other of the plethora of acronyms mean right? If someone were reading this and looking for a game they would be at a loss.

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RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/27/2017 11:41:30 AM

aaatoysandmore

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If you're looking for a game with an AI opponent though I would recommend Making History II. Has a decent AI opponent on higher difficulties at least for me. The US thrashed me when I played Italy on just the hard setting. Plus, it's turn based unlike the HOI's of Paradox and of course the much better AI.

I wouldn't recommend World in Flames though if you really want an AI opponent as of course it doesn't have one and I've never felt quite right playing against myself since most victories in war and battles come from "mistakes" and knowing what's coming takes the fun out of your opponent making a mistake. Would the Romans have made the mistake at Cannae if they knew what Hannibal was going to do?

(in reply to Lobster)

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RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/27/2017 11:48:45 AM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
The general quality of the game system, its global nature (with the associated naval stuff that interests you), your complete control of everything from politics, resource movement, production, strategy and tactics; really recommends it.

I'd be curious to hear what enhancements have been made in TOAW IV to go beyond operational level warfare to the grand strategic level where players can make choices for diplomacy, research, production, etc. Certainly TOAW offers lots of good operational level scenarios, but MWiF offers the global grand strategy game. Again, I'd be curious to hear what TOAW IV may offer along these lines.

(in reply to Neilster)

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RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/27/2017 11:50:45 AM

rico21

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The last born is always the best
Why?
Because the other will die before

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Post #: 19

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/28/2017 1:32:32 AM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Dear lord. Please people use words. You do understand that not everyone on the planet knows what MWIF, WIF, CTGW, DC:B and any other of the plethora of acronyms mean right? If someone were reading this and looking for a game they would be at a loss.

WiF: World in Flames...an award winning paper and dice wargame by Australian Design Group

MWiF: Matrix WiF...The computer conversion of the wargame

TOAW: The Operational Art of War...An operational level wargame with many scenarios, mostly from the 20th Century

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 20

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/28/2017 1:35:32 AM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
The general quality of the game system, its global nature (with the associated naval stuff that interests you), your complete control of everything from politics, resource movement, production, strategy and tactics; really recommends it.

I'd be curious to hear what enhancements have been made in TOAW IV to go beyond operational level warfare to the grand strategic level where players can make choices for diplomacy, research, production, etc. Certainly TOAW offers lots of good operational level scenarios, but MWiF offers the global grand strategy game. Again, I'd be curious to hear what TOAW IV may offer along these lines.

About none, as far as I know. There is going to be a WW2 scenario but AFAIK it's just a huge scenario. It appears TOAW 4 will mainly offer a revised UI and much improved naval model.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 21

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/28/2017 1:45:21 AM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

I wouldn't recommend World in Flames though if you really want an AI opponent as of course it doesn't have one and I've never felt quite right playing against myself since most victories in war and battles come from "mistakes" and knowing what's coming takes the fun out of your opponent making a mistake. Would the Romans have made the mistake at Cannae if they knew what Hannibal was going to do?

Whilst an AI would be better, solitaire works in MWiF. It's very difficult to envisage all the potential decisions/moves of the non-phasing side. I also employ coin flipping or a die roll to decide the course of action if there are two or more possibilities that seem equally viable.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 22

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/28/2017 11:51:01 AM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
I'd be curious to hear what enhancements have been made in TOAW IV to go beyond operational level warfare to the grand strategic level...

ORIGINAL: Neilster
About none, as far as I know.

I think there is scripting for player decisions, which could be strategic level decisions, and clever use of these could make for a good strategic game. Not sure what has been done for TOAW IV. Maybe someone will chime in about a scenario to be included in the release and what it covers. Regardless, I'm looking forward to the operational level scenarios in TOAW IV, and eventually to the ETO scenario with AI in MWiF one of these days.

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 23

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/28/2017 12:45:55 PM

Lobster

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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Dear lord. Please people use words. You do understand that not everyone on the planet knows what MWIF, WIF, CTGW, DC:B and any other of the plethora of acronyms mean right? If someone were reading this and looking for a game they would be at a loss.

WiF: World in Flames...an award winning paper and dice wargame by Australian Design Group

MWiF: Matrix WiF...The computer conversion of the wargame

TOAW: The Operational Art of War...An operational level wargame with many scenarios, mostly from the 20th Century

Cheers, Neilster

It is very neat when they take a popular paper and die game and port it to a digital format. I wonder how difficult it would be to program a computer opponent. Thanks for the education.

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Post #: 24

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/28/2017 1:22:32 PM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

It is very neat when they take a popular paper and die game and port it to a digital format. I wonder how difficult it would be to program a computer opponent. Thanks for the education.

It isn't going to be easy but Steve, the developer, took on the whole project because that's what he wanted to do. He's an AI expert and a very experienced WiF player, so he's a good man for the job.

Many people have said that a good AI will be impossible for MWiF; comparing the complexity of the game to that of chess, with its 64 squares, few piece types and tight rules etc. How could you possibly write an AI for MWiF?

Well, without going too deeply into how AIs are written, chess programs generally use some variation on the Minimax algorithm in combination with a quiescence search. The later reduces the potentially huge number of possible moves from a given position.

Even so, this technique isn't possible with MWiF, and it's AI will work differently, so the chess analogy isn't valid. That MWiF is a port of the physical wargame is advantageous, in that there is decades of experience in the player base that is directly applicable to MWiF.

On the MWiF forum, quite some time ago, strategies for all the major powers (who also control minor powers) were thrashed out in some detail and Steve has recorded the results. He has also developed a pseudo programming language that will be used as part of the AI. He's done a lot of work on it but has been disciplined in sticking to his task list, which at the moment has him squashing (mostly esoteric) bugs, before tackling the AI.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 25

RE: TOAW 3/4 or World in Flames - 6/28/2017 2:13:26 PM

rico21

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A complex computer wargame game written in one language penalizes other players who do not master that language. Unless its dominant language is mathematics.

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Post #: 26