RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ????

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 8:47:04 AM

adarbrauner

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I have an important query about weather I've withheld for long, to make here, if possible.

Is the the weather coded-simulated in somehow realistic patterns?

is it true that clouds-storm clusters-weather fronts tend approximately to move from West to East?

Because I have the impression that yes, they follow this pattern...impression only.

If so, it could be possible to get a relatively more accurate local weather forecast by checking the weather west of the desired location...by submarines, or pickets...exactly as powers did back in time...I think it was terrificly important for them...

Any confirmation-clarification by the forumites?

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 11:17:48 AM

Bif1961

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Any base I want to protect has 500 plus mines, he probably had his subs sitting there and eventually they will run into a mine as they can't see them while submerged. Surface vessels do a better job of seeing and avoiding mines then blind submarines do. The emphasis is protection from marauding Bombardment multiple TFs vice snooping subs. When it comes to mines the more the merrier.

< Message edited by Bif1961 -- 6/14/2017 11:24:03 AM >

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 11:42:37 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

I have an important query about weather I've withheld for long, to make here, if possible.

Is the the weather coded-simulated in somehow realistic patterns?

is it true that clouds-storm clusters-weather fronts tend approximately to move from West to East?

Because I have the impression that yes, they follow this pattern...impression only.

If so, it could be possible to get a relatively more accurate local weather forecast by checking the weather west of the desired location...by submarines, or pickets...exactly as powers did back in time...I think it was terrificly important for them...

Any confirmation-clarification by the forumites?

I don't know and cannot recall the devs ever speaking clearly about it. This describes the weather that Gary has built into the WitW game, but I don't know if he has this advanced of a model here ...

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 11:49:58 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Any base I want to protect has 500 plus mines, he probably had his subs sitting there and eventually they will run into a mine as they can't see them while submerged. Surface vessels do a better job of seeing and avoiding mines then blind submarines do. The emphasis is protection from marauding Bombardment multiple TFs vice snooping subs. When it comes to mines the more the merrier.

500 is higher than i use, but not outlandish. In general, bombardment TF's can stay outside of mine range of a base with mines. Mines though definitely impact amphib ops and sub ops in a hex if subs have not detected the mine field.

There have been a number of discussions about mines through the years which you can search for and read first-person. Fairly detailed about how they work and surprising (at least it was to me) the level of detail that mine fields actually entail in game.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 6/14/2017 11:50:56 AM >

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 1:23:41 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

I have an important query about weather I've withheld for long, to make here, if possible.

Is the the weather coded-simulated in somehow realistic patterns?

is it true that clouds-storm clusters-weather fronts tend approximately to move from West to East?

Because I have the impression that yes, they follow this pattern...impression only.

If so, it could be possible to get a relatively more accurate local weather forecast by checking the weather west of the desired location...by submarines, or pickets...exactly as powers did back in time...I think it was terrificly important for them...

Any confirmation-clarification by the forumites?

Weather forecasts are tied to the big weather map...

However, base and unit weather is reported in the mouseover.

And yes if you can get units around the target location you can generally have a good idea what the weather will be on the following day....although it is somewhat dependent upon the regional forecast. The worse the weather the harder to predict based on actual surrounding weather.

Weather can really play havoc with carrier strikes...and very few players ever look at the weather prior to sending their carriers in, only to complain after the fact.

I recommend adding a graphic cloud patch to your game over the stock graphics. Also during a replay, you can turn the clouds on, hit control - P and scroll all over the map checking on weather.

I never really thought about it before, but I have come to recently believe weather is somehow factored into land combat adjusted assault values. Perhaps by a reduction in ground combat DL, or perhaps directly.

Moonlight is another of the seldom checked for influences....

Hotkey 3 shows the large map forecast, while F7 shows actual weather (and here is where better graphics are really handy). 3 is useful when running from the Deathstar and you want to slip into a different weather pattern increasing your chance of getting away.

Your idea of using subs to generate a better local forecast is easier to accomplish as the Allies in 44 and on as you can afford to really blanket an area. Harder for Japan, as you simply don't have enough subs.

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 1:34:41 PM

Lowpe

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Weather part 2... (Don't read this Jocke spoiler graphic).

Here you can see the better graphics make for easy identification.

Also, note that a developed base will report the weather, a dot base will not (in graphic form!!! only in mouseover).

Units will report the weather.

This graphic shows a Rain front west of Shemya, and a Thunderstorm front to the east.

You would need to have your Iboats out 6-14 hexes or so checking for weather...and even then would you want to end up on a clear hex or a bad weather hex given the uncertainty of where the Allied carriers would show up at? The mind boggles at the variables. I can think of a few tactics...perhaps you can too.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/14/2017 1:39:07 PM >

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 1:51:34 PM

adarbrauner

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You see, Lowpe-Jeff, there are many variables; speed and direction of winds;

It is reasonable to assume that the one (or two) who modeled the weather struggled to make it moving and gathering as realistically as possible.

How much realistic, and what factors are determining the weather rather than randomness, could be learnt IF, if, we were given a "waether no-fog-of-war" option, where you could see and follow accurately the weather all around the map;

I don't think that would be to difficult to do....

Additionally, I'd like to be given an editable weather map (to be used when the "fog-of-war" is off), to track the known weather formations and relative known direction and speed.

Also, why, tell me why, air search/patrols on sea are not providing weather report of the zone they are flying into or close to!

Before ordering an offensive air mission even on land and originating from land I always try to check the weather west of target. If I see consistent heavy clouds- storms I CANCEL the mission (if not highly critical). Waste of supply or worst. Even if weather is predicted as clear. And the opposite.

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 1:59:13 PM

adarbrauner

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Teaser

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_K

Excerpt

"The Japanese submarine I-23 was supposed to station itself just south of Oahu as a "lifeguard" and weather spotter for the flying boats, but was lost sometime after 14 February.[2] Japanese cryptanalysts had broken the United States Navy weather code, but a code change on 1 March eliminated that alternative source of weather information over Pearl Harbor. The mission proceeded on the assumption of clear skies over Pearl Harbor from knowledge of conditions at French Frigate Shoals.[3]"

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 2:17:24 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

It is reasonable to assume that the one (or two) who modeled the weather struggled to make it moving and gathering as realistically as possible.

The developers confirmed that they had to abandon such an effort. The weather is, at first, strictly by regions. Then each hex has random factors applied but they did not go into those.

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 2:23:48 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

You see, Lowpe-Jeff, there are many variables; speed and direction of winds;

It is reasonable to assume that the one (or two) who modeled the weather struggled to make it moving and gathering as realistically as possible.

How much realistic, and what factors are determining the weather rather than randomness, could be learnt IF, if, we were given a "waether no-fog-of-war" option, where you could see and follow accurately the weather all around the map;

I don't think that would be to difficult to do....

Additionally, I'd like to be given an editable weather map (to be used when the "fog-of-war" is off), to track the known weather formations and relative known direction and speed.

Also, why, tell me why, air search/patrols on sea are not providing weather report of the zone they are flying into or close to!

Before ordering an offensive air mission even on land and originating from land I always try to check the weather west of target. If I see consistent heavy clouds- storms I CANCEL the mission (if not highly critical). Waste of supply or worst. Even if weather is predicted as clear. And the opposite.

I agree that the randomized weather systems is a PITA - far too many bad weather results for flying vs good weather, and, even when you have units blanketing an area you cannot accurately predict the movement of weather patterns from hex to hex (there is no logical progression between clear skies and severe storms).

Having said that, I understand that including a detailed weather model would require many more hours of programming and slow down the game response as the calculations ran each turn. It was apparently a design decision to use a randomized weather model to inject the uncertainty they wanted and help build tension in the game play. It works!

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 6/14/2017 2:24:36 PM >

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 3:52:31 PM

Lowpe

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This post by theElf seems to imply you cannot predict weather from the surrounding hexsides, just the base and the forecast.

Also, It is important to remember that there are I believe 3 weather phases per turn...

--------------

Something that digital commanders can forget is that WWII was not an every day affair. This is especially true of the Air War. In fact if you add up all the days that Carrier Aircraft were in action against the enemy on either side what percentage of the days from DEC 7, 1941 to VJ day what % of the time do you think they were in action?

I don't know, but I know it was small. Think about it...

What am I getting at? In WitP and even in AE the player's desire for "Action" can lead to some unrealistic expectations. ie. That there need be Aerial Action every day. This just wasn't/couldn't be the case. The Air war was fought in fits and spurts. Days, weeks, even months would pass in preparation for a major action, and the action would often be a fraction as long as the time spent preparing.

Weather often put a stop to daily operations, and reorganization and pilot fatigue further limited OpTempo.

The same is true in AE. Don't think that daily sweeps for months on end are or should be the norm. Watch the weather. If T-Storms or heavy rain are forecast in you base hex or target Hex Set your pilots to 30% CAP and 50 % rest. Limit offensive Ops into Enemy Hexes where little will be accomplished if the forecast is accurate. You'll only add fatigue and likely expose units to fragmented raids with little impact on the targets you hoped to hit.

Save your strength for when you CAN see the target and give RAID COORDINATION every chance.

This game is a marathon, not a race. Plan ahead, concentrate your forces, wait for the weather to clear, and give your Pilots their Crew Rest...I recommend 12 hours minimum.

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/14/2017 5:58:28 PM

adarbrauner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The developers confirmed that they had to abandon such an effort. The weather is, at first, strictly by regions. Then each hex has random factors applied but they did not go into those.

Still there are some patterns. We see them. Weather fronts and formations tend to stick together. Not all is ravishly random.

Maybe only in single regions, maybe not the whole map is harmonized, region with region, but some patterns seem, to the external eye, be existing.

If anyone could strike a test, with all the sea hexes covered by one side's ship... and see how the weather develops...maybe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Units will report the weather.

Only naval units. Land units outside a base hex do not

< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 6/14/2017 6:00:02 PM >

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/15/2017 2:13:00 AM

PaxMondo

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As WTIPQ, Lowpe and Ian's quote state, there ain't no patterns built in. That the randomness creates the appearance of fronts is not surprising. Predicting them? Well, yes, but only in that the probability exists and that we already know. ;) If you read the design notes for WITE, you will find Gary talk about how they were added to that design, in the context of how he had always envisioned them (reflecting back on his many games). For me, that is the ultimate statement.

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/20/2017 8:29:32 PM

Xargun

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I hope to post some updated pictures and status this evening. But I do have a question for the esteemed members of the viewing gallery. How bad would it be if I lost before 1944? I'm thinking really bad since I'm playing the long game, but I just wonder how many Japanese players have actually lost before 1944 - not quit - but actually lost.

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/20/2017 8:51:11 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

I hope to post some updated pictures and status this evening. But I do have a question for the esteemed members of the viewing gallery. How bad would it be if I lost before 1944? I'm thinking really bad since I'm playing the long game, but I just wonder how many Japanese players have actually lost before 1944 - not quit - but actually lost.

Not bad at all...most Japanese players quit. I picked up a dropped game in Aug of 42, and managed to squeak her out till Jan 1, 1945 before losing. Losing is what Japan does best.

And it is never too late to stretch the game an extra week or month or months.

You will be shocked at what you will learn.

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/20/2017 10:04:26 PM

BBfanboy

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No shame in losing in 1944 to Mr. Kane. He is hyper-aggressive and really understands the strategic gambit game. One of the hardest players to beat.

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/21/2017 2:24:57 AM

PaxMondo

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+1 No shame at all. As you state, you've been gone a while and Mr Kane is a GOOD player, not average at all.

Still play it through. the end game teaches you so much, and you have to see it to really understand it.

BTW: We are with you to the bitter end ... BANZAI!!!

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 6/21/2017 3:03:08 AM >

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/21/2017 1:09:06 PM

Lowpe

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I was always in the camp that Japan wins is she doesn't surrender before a certain date. Now if you feel it unlikely you will seen say June of 44, well then I suspect there are many changes to you plane and ship builds we could accomplish now that would in effect make it much more difficult for the Allies to win in the short term...

Can you show us your fighter builds, plane r&d, ship builds (warships) and supply level. Vehicle production too.

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/21/2017 2:01:30 PM

Xargun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

+1 No shame at all. As you state, you've been gone a while and Mr Kane is a GOOD player, not average at all.

Still play it through. the end game teaches you so much, and you have to see it to really understand it.

BTW: We are with you to the bitter end ... BANZAI!!!

That is my goal with this game. To climb back into the saddle and see how far Mr Kane can kick me out of it (so far pretty far). I have learned a lot already - my initial conversions of ships is wrong for this game - too much expecting a less aggressive game and I'm finding myself short of ACMs, ARs and ADs where I need them. I found an old notebook from my college days and and keeping notes in it for future games. I could use another 10 ACMs easy as well as several more ARs for places like Rabaul, Truk and Rangoon.

I have also made several mistakes with my aircraft plans that has cost me 150-200k supplies to retool. Nothing too crazy, but still waste supply.

I don't plan on quiting just trying to figure out how low to hold my head after Mr Kane crushes me !!!

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RE: Rabaul gets hammered.... by cruisers ???? - 6/21/2017 2:02:02 PM

Xargun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I was always in the camp that Japan wins is she doesn't surrender before a certain date. Now if you feel it unlikely you will seen say June of 44, well then I suspect there are many changes to you plane and ship builds we could accomplish now that would in effect make it much more difficult for the Allies to win in the short term...

Can you show us your fighter builds, plane r&d, ship builds (warships) and supply level. Vehicle production too.

Coming up.. I'll post as soon as I can while avoiding work :)

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Post #: 500

Engine Production - 6/21/2017 2:16:49 PM

Xargun

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Here is my engine production. All are functional except the Ha-43 factories which are simply performing R&D. I am enlarging my Ha-45 production as well as Ha-33.

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IJA AC Production - 6/21/2017 2:18:33 PM

Xargun

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Current Army Aircraft Production.

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IJA AC R&D - 6/21/2017 2:19:11 PM

Xargun

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Current Army Aircraft R&D

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< Message edited by Xargun -- 6/21/2017 2:20:58 PM >

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IJN AC Production - 6/21/2017 2:20:01 PM

Xargun

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My Navy Aircraft Production

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< Message edited by Xargun -- 6/21/2017 2:21:13 PM >

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IJN AC R&D - 6/21/2017 2:20:36 PM

Xargun

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Navy Aircraft R&D

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Industry - 6/21/2017 2:21:52 PM

Xargun

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Current Industry Screen

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December 4th, 1942 (China) - 6/21/2017 2:26:23 PM

Xargun

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The Chinese front has been stable for a while and I finally broke the Chinese surrounding 2 cutoff Divisions near Chihkiang. I have also just pushed out the final Chinese units from Changteh - will be pursuing them down the road towards Chihkiang with a couple Divisions, while the artillery horde will head towards Kweilin to help finish clearing my rail.

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December 4th, 1942 (Solomons) - 6/21/2017 2:30:44 PM

Xargun

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This theater is not going great. When Mr Kane first arrived I figured he was here in little strength (like me), but I was very wrong. He has constantly pushed up the Solomons and across New Guinea from Port Moresby with a combination of US and Australian forces. He has a lot of 2E and 4E bombers and a bunch of fighters in theater as well.

As you can see from the map, he is steadily pushing north up the Solomon chain and East from Port Moresby. I am evacuating troops from Buna and Buin as fast as I can with air (Buin) and barges (Buna). I am considering bringing a fresh division from Manila to Madang to secure the way, but am worried he will just leap frog it and cut it off.

What would you guys recommend?

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December 4th, 1942 (Burma) - 6/21/2017 2:38:21 PM

Xargun

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Northern Burma is in shambles as Mr Kane is expertly hiding his movement and catching me offguard as I have posted about before. I am finally in the later stages of extracting the 2 Division plus force from Katha but they are beat up and will need a couple weeks to recover when they are free.

I have a division west of Katha holding the door open and a Tank Division in the plains to the SW holding the way. The map is busy, but allies W of Katha (green units) are moving SE towards the clear terrain where my 1 Tank Division is waiting. 150+ bombers are Toungou are waiting for them to come into the clear terrain so I can hammer them - I expect heavy fighter cover so a turn or two of sweeps will be conducted as well.

In all I have spotted multiple Indian and Australian Divisions as well as British troops in Northern Burma. Not sure how many Indian Divisions he has 'bought' out to allow them to cross into Burma (house rule) so that may be why I have not seen many across the border.

My operation to take Cox's Bazar went fine with 2 Regiments landing and taking the base easily. They moved south to Akyab where an infantry Division crossed over the river to help in the attack. Apparently 2 Regiments were not enough and the infantry division shock attacked at Akyab and destroyed itself (must have rolled snake-eyes). One attack and it went from fully capable (370 ish AV) to 70 AV and the entire operation failed. The troops are fleeing from Akyab slowly to return to Rangoon for rest and rebuilding -- at least the 2 Regiments are in good shape.

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RE: December 4th, 1942 (Burma) - 6/21/2017 3:45:46 PM

Lowpe

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Ok, that is a lot to take in.

I bet you should be able to survive thru 44.

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