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CV TF: one shot weapons

 
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CV TF: one shot weapons - 5/8/2003 3:15:37 PM   
Angel

 

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Because of losses, fatigue, morale, CV TF are one shot weapons in this game. I won't discuss if it's historical or not but it means you need to use them carefully and just when needed.But in the game it's almost impossible!!
I 'm fed up to see my planes attacking any little TF in range and often at extended range in ports ( fatigue is very high but they really like that).When the day of the big CV battle comes they are already exhausted. I had many operations cancelled or turned into disaster because of that! :mad:
In my opinion ,the game absolutly needs to be improved there.
A solution would be to add these two orders:
1-"Attack CV TF only " ( A few mistakes from time to time could simulate FOW)
2-" attack at normal range only" (also usefull for LB bombers)

Don't you think it would be a big step forward in playability and historicity?
Post #: 1
Re: CV TF: one shot weapons - 5/8/2003 3:50:06 PM   
mapr

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Angel
[B]A solution would be to add these two orders:
1-"Attack CV TF only " ( A few mistakes from time to time could simulate FOW)

Don't you think it would be a big step forward in playability and historicity? [/B][/QUOTE]

Not sure if it would be historical, but I'd love to see option "Attack CV's only". Meaning that you could attack CV's even if you don't know whether they are in port or in TF. And mostly let other ships to see another day.

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 2
- 5/8/2003 4:10:44 PM   
Angel

 

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Sorry, I should have said " Attack CV TF only" . I think it would prevent your pilots to play stupid games while you are expecting a major action. Even the worst admiral would act this way.
I'm not sure about the solution, but I'm sure there is a problem don't you think so?

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 3
- 5/8/2003 5:33:31 PM   
mapr

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Angel
[B]Sorry, I should have said " Attack CV TF only" . I think it would prevent your pilots to play stupid games while you are expecting a major action. Even the worst admiral would act this way.
I'm not sure about the solution, but I'm sure there is a problem don't you think so? [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, didn't make myself clear...

I just wanted to add that CV's dispanded in port could be attacked with same order than CV Task Forces to prevent quite annoying situation when you don't know where to attack if enemy CV's are in well defended base hex. One just have to quess whether enemy is going to stay as TF or will he disband his ships to a port is he choses to stay.

To me it would be improvement if AI would automatically include ships in port as a possible target amongst task forces. This possiblity have no need to concern only CV taskforces. How about "Ship attack" and "CV attack" options? First one would allow AI to hunt down enemy ships in TF's and ports as presently and later would prefer attacking CV's and CV TF's.

But yes, there is sort of a problem in AI way of attacking whatever is in range... And thus fatiguing pilots. Or problem is in pilot fatigue... Or problem is in a way which air force is used by players.

(in reply to Angel)
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- 5/8/2003 8:06:01 PM   
Sonny

 

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You can add to this the irritation of the CAG sending hundreds of bombers to sink one damaged CA or TK etc. This also unnecessarily jacks up the pilot fatigue and you need to beat a hasty retreat if there is even the remotest possibility of danger in the area.

With 2.30 there was an improvement so that if a CV TF was in range it would get the highest priority for attack. The situation i am talking about occurs when there is no enemy CV in range (perhaps just out of range) and all your pilots are then tired and you have to move away from the enemy for a day or two.

:)

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 5
- 5/10/2003 12:46:19 AM   
Nikademus


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well one could put an "attack CV TF only" button in the game, but for it to be "historical" you would have to preserve the chance that your attack force would still hit the wrong target, because that is unfortunately what happened in real life at times (Hara at Coral Sea?)

It may be frustrating as all hell, but it's an accurate reflection on real life conditions. However one thing i'd like to see addressed would be the a code tweak that allows an attacking air group to switch targets within an attacked TF when the primary unit has been clearly sunk during the combat resolution phase (instead, right now you get a series of "section cannot find target msgs")

Sure i'd rather see all those planes hunt for another CV TF, but bereft of such serpendipity, its would at least be nice to see them send a few more DD's and cruisers back to port for repairs. :)

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 6
- 5/10/2003 5:21:01 AM   
mapr

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikademus
[B]well one could put an "attack CV TF only" button in the game, but for it to be "historical" you would have to preserve the chance that your attack force would still hit the wrong target, because that is unfortunately what happened in real life at times (Hara at Coral Sea?)
[/QUOTE]

That really was not the point. I think that Angel meant that if no CV's reported in area , then option would cause that no attacks would be made to allow pilots to rest for one more day.

I'd think that would be quite reasonable sometimes... Not historical because such situation newer happened.

And I added wish about option to attack against CV's, where ever they are in special case when opponent may hide CV's to port or keep them in TF. Nothing to do about false reports etc.


][/QUOTE]
It may be frustrating as all hell, but it's an accurate reflection on real life conditions. However one thing i'd like to see addressed would be the a code tweak that allows an attacking air group to switch targets within an attacked TF when the primary unit has been clearly sunk during the combat resolution phase (instead, right now you get a series of "section cannot find target msgs")

Sure i'd rather see all those planes hunt for another CV TF, but bereft of such serpendipity, its would at least be nice to see them send a few more DD's and cruisers back to port for repairs. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 7
- 5/10/2003 4:41:19 PM   
Angel

 

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As Mapr pointed out ,I was refering to a situation where no CV TF is in range ( but can be expected ).
But , once again don't focus on my solution. I mainly wanted to outline a major problem of this game.
What is the best antiCV weapon in the game by now? A surface task force at extreme range in a port with a CAP! Your bombers will attack automatically and get losses and fatigue . Your strength can be halved in one turn!Imagine Kates and Dauntless with normal ranges of 15 hex : the game would be unplayable! The only thing that prevent them to attack is range!It's highly unrealistic.
To be a little bit provocative I would say the USN CV bombers have a "SHORT RANGE ADVANTAGE": you can control them better.

I'm surprised this complete lack of control is not seen as a major problem while any change in the comparative value of fighters is so passionatly commented.

Feel free to propose any solution or to explain why it's not a problem.

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 8
- 5/10/2003 9:18:01 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Angel
[B]I'm surprised this complete lack of control is not seen as a major problem while any change in the comparative value of fighters is so passionatly commented.

Feel free to propose any solution or to explain why it's not a problem. [/B][/QUOTE]

I find ridicolous what some people see as "major problems" lately in this game! For me, that is sign that 2.30 is indeed a very polished product...

Now I am going to explain, "why it's not a problem" in my opinion.

Because CV pilots and officers are normally very aggressive bunch, waiting to kick *** of every ship that comes in their sight. There was NO historical situation where CV airgroups "declined" to sink few enemy transports that were in range, only to avoid being fatigued tomorrow! NO chance that they'll let the APs pass just because enemy CV may, or may not appear tomorrow, and they had to be in "top form" to meet them.

You think in game(y) terms, historical pilots didn't do that. They sank ships first, asked questions later.

So I'd say this is another thing UV designers got right, but some people are never happy it seems.

O.

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 9
- 5/11/2003 12:28:05 AM   
Angel

 

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Oleg,you may think every thread should start with our thanks to Matrix for giving us this wonderfull game and I would agree with you. But after that, we should be allowed to request some improvements, Matrix is free to take them in account or not.

I hope you won't find this request too "ridiculous".

I have read a lot of your numerous posts and they show you're an experienced player (but always complaining about people who are complaining) with deep knowledge of the game. So instead of personnal judgements about people you don't know ( I really think I'm not the kind of guy never happy ),I'd prefer some advices:

- How do you support an invasion of,say, Luganville?
My last attempt failed because my CV TF coming from Noth West started to launch strikes on TF with no strategical interest at Lunganville and Efate . My opponent had its CV simply waiting near Noumea while I was wasting my planes.
One would say there is a simple solution" make a plan where you don't need to stay in range of these ports or any ennemy TF at sea" but you won't ,because it would be thinking "gamey", wouldn't it?

- How do you use the so called "long range advantage" of Japanese strikes ?
I had some success with it, but most of time it brings me uncoordinated strikes (and heavy losses) with Kates using bombs wich is not very effective. I'd prefer to save my Kates for occasions were they can use torpedoes.Is it gamey to ask for possibilty to make a choice?

Thanks for your answer.( and thanks for your previous answer despite some unpleasant words)

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 10
- 5/11/2003 12:45:45 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Angel
[B]
- How do you support an invasion of,say, Luganville?
My last attempt failed because my CV TF coming from Noth West started to launch strikes on TF with no strategical interest at Lunganville and Efate . My opponent had its CV simply waiting near Noumea while I was wasting my planes.
One would say there is a simple solution" make a plan where you don't need to stay in range of these ports or any ennemy TF at sea" but you won't ,because it would be thinking "gamey", wouldn't it?[/B][/QUOTE]

First of all - CV vs CV battles are ALWAYS one big gamble, for BOTH sides. It was like that historically, it IS like that in this game, and it's how it should be IMO. Many MANY players complain endleslly after CV battle goes bad for them (I don't say you are among them) and I say to them: remember Midway, remember Coral Sea and IJN strike clobbering wrong target (Neosho and Sims) etc.

If you want to play HISTORIC simulation that's something you have to live with. I live with it. I went thru some "personal Midways" in UV myself, and played on without a word of complaint, and I expect the same of my opponents too. (I know, you're not my oponent, yet :)

Now how do you support invasion of Luganville? Let me ask counter-question: what do you think, why IJN historically never even *attempted* invasion of Luganville? That's right, because is WAS too RISKY. It's going to be very risky for you in this game too. If you didn't eliminate US CV threat *before* even THINKING of invading Lville - you are putting a lot at stake. That's how it is, that's how it should be.

Still, you can try. In one of my current games I have CV inferiority (went thru mini-Midway), and am attampting to do PM invasion anyway. I gathered all what's left of my CVs, and timed the thing to coincide with the period when his CV pilots are tired and CV TFs out of fuel. Maybe I succeed, but I know it's a BIG gamble. Same as invading Luganville. Perfectly historical IMO.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Angel
[B]
- How do you use the so called "long range advantage" of Japanese strikes ?
I had some success with it, but most of time it brings me uncoordinated strikes (and heavy losses) with Kates using bombs wich is not very effective. I'd prefer to save my Kates for occasions were they can use torpedoes.Is it gamey to ask for possibilty to make a choice?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Bettys and Nells are incredibly vulnerable (again, this is PERFECTLY historic). I use them almost exclusively for port attacks, and sometimes for night naval attacks too. Rarely, very VERY rarely they manage to do "conwoy massacre" (if my opponent is careless enough not to CAP his conwoys or give them enough CLAA protection), and even more rarely they manage "Prince of Wales" kind of thing (but sustaining connsiderable, if not prohibitive losses in the process).

Why do you think no aviaton fan would put Nell or Betty into his list of "10 planes that changed the course of WW2"? That's right - because they were CRAP :)

This, again, while being frustrating, seems historic to me.

IJN CV aircraft don't have that much of a "long range advantage" 10 hexes compared to 9? You can't rely on that to give you victory. Attacking on extreme range they are prone to make many mistakes, are attacking with bombs etc. Historically there was no situation where the marginally better range was decisive in CV vs CV battle, and it is so in UV too. (Devastators put aside for the moment, with their extreme short range).

When Avengers come for USN, you can forget 10 vs 9 hexes advantage too.

O.

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 11
- 5/11/2003 1:19:53 AM   
Mr.Frag


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The topic for this thread is pretty accurate.

How many CV's in the Pacific fell prey to the one shot weapon situation historically? Very few seemed to survive any of the battles or did so because another CV went down in their place.

Seems to me that historically during 42/43, carriers were one shot weapons ;)

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 12
- 5/11/2003 1:40:13 AM   
Angel

 

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I'm not complaining about CV being one shot weapons. I take it as it is in the game . I just wan't to use this shot when it has some sense to use it.
I just wanted to add , about my attempt to take Lunganville, I had 4CV and 2CVL vs 2CV and my defeat didn't surprise me ! I'm NOT COMPLAINING about it. The shock was in the couple of turns before! When I saw all these stupid long range strikes.
After that the defeat was rather predictable.

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 13
- 5/11/2003 3:41:12 AM   
mapr

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]I find ridicolous what some people see as "major problems" lately in this game! For me, that is sign that 2.30 is indeed a very polished product...

[/QUOTE]

To me only major problem is that playing the game takes too much time sometimes when all opponents are active... :D

[QUOTE]

Now I am going to explain, "why it's not a problem" in my opinion.

Because CV pilots and officers are normally very aggressive bunch, waiting to kick *** of every ship that comes in their sight. There was NO historical situation where CV airgroups "declined" to sink few enemy transports that were in range, only to avoid being fatigued tomorrow! NO chance that they'll let the APs pass just because enemy CV may, or may not appear tomorrow, and they had to be in "top form" to meet them.

[/QUOTE]

In real life it propably was wery sensible to attack whenever there was chance to sink enemy ships. But unfortunate fact is that in UV it ain't so because sinking some transports strains pilots quite a lot. But as this is same to both sides and players know how things work( or atleast learns pretty quickly) this really doesn't matter too much.

[QUOTE]

You think in game(y) terms, historical pilots didn't do that. They sank ships first, asked questions later.

So I'd say this is another thing UV designers got right, but some people are never happy it seems.

O. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'd think you are right and 'problem' is in modeling fatigue... Or pilots got strained from attacking minor targets but sill were ordered to attack anyway. Even if it meant that next day they would be too fatigued to be competent... But in real life commanders didn't have as much opportunies to run simulations as we do.

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 14
- 5/11/2003 6:59:40 AM   
CapAndGown


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]IJN CV aircraft don't have that much of a "long range advantage" 10 hexes compared to 9? You can't rely on that to give you victory. Attacking on extreme range they are prone to make many mistakes, are attacking with bombs etc. Historically there was no situation where the marginally better range was decisive in CV vs CV battle, and it is so in UV too. (Devastators put aside for the moment, with their extreme short range).

When Avengers come for USN, you can forget 10 vs 9 hexes advantage too.

O. [/B][/QUOTE]

The Turkey Shoot instantly comes to mind as a situation where the Japanese tried to used their supperior range to their advantage. Frankly, I think that Japanese plan was quite sound. In fact, it is remeniscent of the strategies recommended on this board. :D The problem, I feel, was in pilots that were not sufficiently trained coupled with fighters that were outclassed. If the Japs had tried the same strategy in 1942 my guess is that it would have been much more effective.

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 15
- 5/11/2003 9:53:46 AM   
Drongo

 

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Posted by Nik
[QUOTE]However one thing i'd like to see addressed would be the a code tweak that allows an attacking air group to switch targets within an attacked TF when the primary unit has been clearly sunk during the combat resolution phase (instead, right now you get a series of "section cannot find target msgs") [/QUOTE]

I think that's an area which needs to be addressed (and probably will be at some later point, IMO).

The biggest laugh is when all the aircraft go out again in the afternoon, fly to the same TF, select the same ship and once more overfly it in huge numbers saying "yep, it's still sunk". Maybe there were rumours of undead ships rising from their graves in WWII.

My guess is that the updating of a ships status between floating, sunk (or undead) occurs only at the end of the day turn on which it was attacked. Maybe a more dynamic ship status update could be considered that still takes into account FOW.

_____________________________

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drink more beer.

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 16
- 5/11/2003 12:24:26 PM   
mapr

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]The topic for this thread is pretty accurate.

How many CV's in the Pacific fell prey to the one shot weapon situation historically? Very few seemed to survive any of the battles or did so because another CV went down in their place.

Seems to me that historically during 42/43, carriers were one shot weapons ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

True if heavy fighting and/or AA occurred... But how it was after easier combats? Such as attacking against few lighly defended transports...

(in reply to Angel)
Post #: 17
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