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Rather disappointed in the game - 7/1/2017 11:23:39 PM

ColRosenberger

Posts: 27
Joined: 6/11/2017
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I recently bought the game, and I must say I'm disappointed. Enough to request a refund (if such a thing was allowed by Matrix/Slitherine policy), in fact.

What really kills the game for me is not seeing any kind of numbers or dice rolls, the worst offender being not seeing the sum of terrain/LOS hindrance modifiers that apply. The game implementing part, but not the whole ASL ruleset doesn't help, because frequent trips to the TOTH manual become necessary to remind myself when the rules match or not. This would be easily avoided if the game showed more of what's under the hood.

By contrast, the computer adaptation of Lock 'n Load Heroes of Stalingrad has a simple dialog that shows the dice roll, modifiers that apply to the shot and target number, along with the final result. (screenshot at: i {dot} imgur {dot} com {slash} qhIuri5.jpg) It makes a world of difference, I can't imagine a good boardgame adaptation without that feature - after all most of us are here to play "computer ASL".

Then there's the awkward interface (how you managed to do worse than VASL amazes me), that as others have commented requires way too many clicks for each action. All this along with the notable omission of important SL/ASL staples like smoke grenades and concealment make the game not quite reach its goal. Which is sad, because it feels pretty close.

(BTW throwing smoke grenades was part of German "good practices" for assaulting enemy positions at Stalingrad, so I don't get the "realism" argument. Especially in a game that features Stacks of Doom and Poor Broken Units that need a Superhero Leader to come by to get them back into action - ASL is very fun but it has been beaten in the realism area by games like Band of Brothers a long time ago.)

I still have respect for what is a one-man development effort, but I really hope I won't stay disappointed forever and that the game will realize its full potential as "computer ASL"... we've been waiting long enough.

< Message edited by ColRosenberger -- 7/1/2017 11:47:39 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/2/2017 2:07:50 AM

wodin

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Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
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I always thought what makes ASL is the extreme depth and detail to the game compared to other tactical wargames. With out that then it doesn't have that special cult status factor and would be just another tactical hex wargame. I do hope down the line TOTH also has all that depth and detail.

I'd put it on the back burner then come back to it in a year or two..as it sounds like it does have the potential to be the ultimate tac wargame on the PC.

< Message edited by wodin -- 7/2/2017 2:13:39 AM >

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(in reply to ColRosenberger)

Post #: 2

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/2/2017 3:16:12 AM

rico21

Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
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Thanks Wodin for your reply!
I add this(Matrix Game Description):

Tigers on the Hunt is a World War 2 hard-core tactical wargame for PC.
It creates a truly and immersive tactical simulation. Tigers on the Hunt boasts a ferocious and adaptive AI which will
dynamically respond to a player�s maneuvers. Players can enjoy massive battles across up to 12 connected geomorphic maps with
over 200 Infantry units, 100 Support Weapons, 100 Ordnance pieces and 50 Vehicles per side.
The sequence of play is more complex and interactive than any other WW2 turn based PC tactical wargame: game turns are broken
down into 16 segments per turn, 8 segments per side and battlefields can range from small to huge in size and complexity, up to
3.8km x 1.6km in size and 200 infantry squads, 50 guns and 50 vehicles per side.
For scenario designers, a powerful and easy-to-user editor is available in Tigers on the Hunt. Editing maps, scenarios, and
OOBs can be done with just a few clicks so the possibilities for enjoying WW2 tactical engagements are near limitless!
Caract�ristiques
Three difficulty levels with varying levels of command and control implementation.
A dynamic AI which never reacts the same way twice to a player�s plan. Scenario designers need only designate the AI as an
attacker or defender and the game engine will do the rest!
Tigers on the Hunt uses Fog of War; if a unit doesn�t have LOS to any enemy unit(s) it will not be able to see or engage
the enemy unit(s). LOS is detailed, down to a pixel level.
Statistics: objectives, casualties, outcome of the scenario.
Create any tactical situation in World War II with a full suite of editors:
a. Map editor
b. OOB Editor
c. Campaign Editor
Battle it out in virtually any engagement on the Western/Eastern/Mediterranean Front using detailed American, German,
Russian and British armies.
A massive library of units:
a. All German/Russian/American/British Infantry Units: Squads, Half-Squads, Leaders and Crew
b. 40 Support Weapons (LMG, MMG, HMG, DC, FT, PSK, PF, ATR, PIAT, Molotov Projector, Radio, Bazooka, Light MTR)
c. 95 Ordnance (Mortars, Anti-Tank Guns, Anti-Aircraft Guns, Artillery)
d. 162 Vehicles (Light/Medium/Heavy Tanks, Tank Destroyers, Assault Guns, Armoured Cars, Half-Tracks)
e. 28 Off Board Artillery Pieces including Mortar/Howitzer/Rocket
Use the myriad units in small as well as massive battles which support up to: 200 Infantry units, 100 Support Weapons,
100 Ordnance pieces and 50 Vehicles per side.
Scenario sizes can range from small and intense to massive and grand (up to 97 x 40 hexes)
Campaigns (really just a long scenario) last up to 504 turns - roughly about 2 months of combat (8 turns per day + 4 turns
in the night).
Scenario difficulty can be: Easy, Normal and Hard. The difficulty is associated with Command & Control rules. Easy means
human player always have command over all its units. Normal difficulty - Normal Command & Control rules are used. Hard -
tougher Command & Control difficulty rules are used.
Scenario/OOB/map editor, maps can be created by painting each hex individually or a whole map can imported by loading
templates that come with the game. The scenario editor supports 12 maps put together. 4 maps in a row and 3 maps in a column.
You can assign each map to each sector or you can allow the computer to randomly import the map templates to make the overall
scenario/campaign map random.

ASL is never mentioned, those who see this game through the prism of ASL will always be disappointed.
Those who say this game is an ASL wargame on PC lie.
It is a new game, to take or leave.

PS: We know the pain created by a disappointing game

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 3

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/2/2017 5:53:00 PM

Peter Fisla

Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline

The game is not for everyone, I totally understand and respect that. However, I'm working on a feature in the UPDATE4 that will provide to the player a bit more information about enemy units. Example, when you select say Sherman 4 tank, all the enemy unit hexes in LOS will be identified and the game will display a percentage of a success. I'm working on this right now. TotH is ASL inspired game, so it is deep but I will not provide the underlying data as I don't want the game to turn in to a sophisticated spreadsheet.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 7/2/2017 5:54:46 PM >

(in reply to rico21)

Post #: 4

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/3/2017 12:06:02 AM

ColRosenberger

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Joined: 6/11/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
I will not provide the underlying data as I don't want the game to turn in to a sophisticated spreadsheet.

I can't say I understand this position. You gotta understand your target audience, and it's 99% ASL players, whether you like it or not. Do a poll or something if you don't believe me, even your publisher Slitherine knows it, the way they advertise the ASL mod on the store page. Without the nostalgia and the draw of playing ASL without a human opponent this game has nothing to offer compared to wargame series which were designed to be computer wargames from the start, rather than shoehorned in.

So what's wrong in giving us the full boardgame experience, instead of stopping halfway and making a game that pleases nobody? What makes a game like ASL is the dice rolls, with your heart stopping when you or your opponent get snake eyes or you roll a 12 and SW breaks down.

I don't think any ASL player would call his favorite game a "sophisticated spreadsheet", saying that is rather offensive in fact. It's a system that's made to be played with all the numbers laid bare, and I'd go as far to say that it completely fails as a game when you try to artificially hide them like in TOTH.

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 5

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/3/2017 6:16:40 AM

GenChaos33

Posts: 360
Joined: 9/28/2000
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I disagree completely with OP ColR and all his comments.
I have always known what this game is and what it offers.
Matrix/Slitherine does a lot of videos/twitch and give a lot of game info.
Is this game perfect? NO. Does this game give a ASL feel? YES Is this game fun? YES

Good job PeterF with what is done and in future!
I guess I am in the 1%. I never felt so special.

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Post #: 6

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/4/2017 1:31:26 PM

Riggar

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I've just bought the game and have played it for quite a few hours and I rather like it. That feeling is growing all the time. I did do a fair study via videos and reading through the forum as I was hankering after a SL feel. SL is my background (not ASL incidentally). I think it's got that 'feel'. I do understand the desire to see under hood - we all like stats and figures - it's what we are made of - maybe in the future this could be an optional feature; so you can play as Peter envisioned but the ability switch 'under the hoodness' on (at various levels, as updates roll out over time - let's not expect it all from day 1) for simple, moderate and even complex settings for the die-hards amongst us. I don't know, I assume there's a TotH wishlist thread somewhere, where we all can make our plea - hopefully also sporting a possibles / intended updates list (never expect to see a definitive updates list in a forum) but a vision ahead would be most welcome.

(in reply to GenChaos33)

Post #: 7

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/8/2017 4:43:34 PM

fuselex

Posts: 788
Joined: 8/2/2014
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If there was a ASL experience better than this , I imagine we wouldn`t even be on the forum.
This game is starting to capture the feel of the ( unmentionable ) game
Time and contributions will advance this game , if it was easy , guess it would have been done
before .
I know there are other games along the same line ,but how many have struck the same feeling ?

(in reply to Riggar)

Post #: 8

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/8/2017 5:04:02 PM

fuselex

Posts: 788
Joined: 8/2/2014
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discussion , idea`s , thoughts ,
will lead this away from something we know, to something we all have
a chance to improve .
The developers listen and frequent the forums more than most of us ,
they read our posts , they answer our posts ,
If there is something I feel should be implemented , they will see it.
Of course odds are my flying bats won`t hit the next patch , but it will
be looked at.
Suggest , demonstrate , and hope , but never doubt the developers devotion .

(in reply to fuselex)

Post #: 9

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/8/2017 5:22:32 PM

Big Ivan

Posts: 1963
Joined: 6/9/2008
From: Mansfield, Ohio USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fuselex

If there was a ASL experience better than this , I imagine we wouldn`t even be on the forum.
This game is starting to capture the feel of the ( unmentionable ) game
Time and contributions will advance this game , if it was easy , guess it would have been done
before .
I know there are other games along the same line ,but how many have struck the same feeling ?

Actually as it stands now TotH is a fun game to wrap ones self in and escape real life for a moment in time. As most of you know, I'm a Campaign Series guy who began
loving this game even before it came out. As I read through the forums early last January, 2016, I thought "Geez, this game is going to be super cool when it comes out in February
and I have to save my $$ to get it and try it out!" Well I wasn't disappointed, I'm still not disappointed and I never will be. Will it ever take the place in my heart
where the Campaign Series resides? Probably not but its a damn close second I can tell you that.

My only hope right now is one thing. If possible please fix the slow speed issue so we scenario designers can rock and roll baby! I envision large scenarios in Stalingrad, Berlin,
Aachen and Bastogne.

TotH will live forever and even if it is not ASL, it's close.

Stay the course Peter, stay the course! The loyal TotH family salutes you!

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(in reply to fuselex)

Post #: 10

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/8/2017 5:26:52 PM

Peter Fisla

Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline

Thanks guys for your support, Jorgen and I; we appreciate it! We love the game, there is more to come in the future...full steam ahead :)

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 7/8/2017 5:27:24 PM >

(in reply to Big Ivan)

Post #: 11

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/8/2017 5:51:22 PM

Rosseau

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I think the LOS feature especially (and chance of success) will make a huge difference. I'm being selfish perhaps, but glad that's what you are concentrating on next.

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 12

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/8/2017 11:03:28 PM

Scrat

Posts: 12
Joined: 8/3/2007
From: Spain
Status: offline

I bought the game two weeks ago and I'm enjoying it. I have tried many tactical wargames, but only Steel Panthers, Combat Mission x1 and this one have convinced me. I think it has aspects to improve as some players have said (interface and optimization, tactical use of smoke, etc.), but in its current state is a good game and also has great potential.
As for comparison with ASL or other board games, it is not important for me to reflect calculations and dice rolls, which could be optional in the future. The detail of the turns and the sequence of game as well as knowing the characteristics of the units and the influence of the terrain is enough for me.
One limitation is the lack of PBEM, but I think this option is not possible with so much possibility of interruptions. Improving AI is therefore important.
Congratulations and thank you for this great game

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 13

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 7/14/2017 2:48:44 PM

barkhorn45

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Joined: 3/7/2008
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one thing I don't like is woods and buildings provide cover but not concealment plus there appears to be no fow.

(in reply to Scrat)

Post #: 14

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 8/30/2017 1:57:11 PM

blackcloud6

Posts: 489
Joined: 8/13/2002
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quote:

What really kills the game for me is not seeing any kind of numbers or dice rolls, the worst offender being not seeing the sum of terrain/LOS hindrance modifiers that apply.

The whole point of doing this kind of game on a computer is so you don't have to worry about all the modifiers, calculations etc. Any long term ASLers knows what these are anyhow so you should know you are better protected in a stone building than a wooded building than trees etc.

BTW, ASL was originally intended to play quickly, calculating the combat was intended to be done fast and not by sitting there calculating every possibility and picking the best shots. The game is actually more fun this way, BTW.

TotH makes it able to play ASL like intended, fast, focusing on tactics and not math.

As to all the ASL rules not being implemented, the designer has addressed that, it simply cannot be done in program oft this size.

(in reply to barkhorn45)

Post #: 15

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 8/30/2017 6:23:55 PM

UP844

Posts: 1662
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From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
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+1

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Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

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Post #: 16

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 8/31/2017 11:12:18 AM

Ticonderoga60

Posts: 86
Joined: 10/12/2016
From: Italy
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(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 17

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 8/31/2017 11:27:12 AM

Peter Fisla

Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: blackcloud6

quote:

What really kills the game for me is not seeing any kind of numbers or dice rolls, the worst offender being not seeing the sum of terrain/LOS hindrance modifiers that apply.

The whole point of doing this kind of game on a computer is so you don't have to worry about all the modifiers, calculations etc. Any long term ASLers knows what these are anyhow so you should know you are better protected in a stone building than a wooded building than trees etc.

BTW, ASL was originally intended to play quickly, calculating the combat was intended to be done fast and not by sitting there calculating every possibility and picking the best shots. The game is actually more fun this way, BTW.

TotH makes it able to play ASL like intended, fast, focusing on tactics and not math.

As to all the ASL rules not being implemented, the designer has addressed that, it simply cannot be done in program oft this size.

Salute!

(in reply to blackcloud6)

Post #: 18

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/14/2017 11:05:46 PM

Ravensworth

Posts: 11
Joined: 9/24/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColRosenberger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
I will not provide the underlying data as I don't want the game to turn in to a sophisticated spreadsheet.

I can't say I understand this position. You gotta understand your target audience, and it's 99% ASL players, whether you like it or not. Do a poll or something if you don't believe me, even your publisher Slitherine knows it, the way they advertise the ASL mod on the store page. Without the nostalgia and the draw of playing ASL without a human opponent this game has nothing to offer compared to wargame series which were designed to be computer wargames from the start, rather than shoehorned in.

So what's wrong in giving us the full boardgame experience, instead of stopping halfway and making a game that pleases nobody? What makes a game like ASL is the dice rolls, with your heart stopping when you or your opponent get snake eyes or you roll a 12 and SW breaks down.

I don't think any ASL player would call his favorite game a "sophisticated spreadsheet", saying that is rather offensive in fact. It's a system that's made to be played with all the numbers laid bare, and I'd go as far to say that it completely fails as a game when you try to artificially hide them like in TOTH.

I Have to say I disagree with you on all points.

1. I have a large group of friends(25 in our sim group) that owns TOTH and none of us play ASL.
2. This game pleases many people and not knowing all the algorithms behind each move makes one play much more like a small unit commander than any board wargame could. If you have ever commanded troops in the field you will understand this.
3. Many of my friends quit playing ASL because it had become one giant math problem. TOTH does not fail as a game because it hides some numbers from players. It succeeds because of this. Because of that extra bit of uncertainty.

I respect everyone has certain games that appeal to them. All wargames are based on math. I prefer having a game that does not show me all the math so I must make decisions based on what I think makes the most tactical sense.

Keep Up the good work Peter.

(in reply to ColRosenberger)

Post #: 19

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/15/2017 1:56:12 AM

Hailstone

Posts: 666
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From: Phoenix, AZ
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C'mon man, if you like throwing dice so much go to Vegas and play craps but I got to tell you TotH saved ASL. Think about it, ASL went under as the rules expanded because it was turning into a "spreadsheet". I never played ASL because I couldn't find anybody geeky enough to play against. I was more successful with Squad Leader and I played about 25 games. The thing is that not knowing all the details that go into the calculation of a dice roll forces you to play more by your gut instincts rather than a calculation. I think that is why I had more opponents for Squad Leader with less things to mathematically consider. Give TotH a chance with the intro scenarios and maybe you'd be surprised.

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Post #: 20

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/15/2017 1:07:25 PM

UP844

Posts: 1662
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From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hailstone

C'mon man, if you like throwing dice so much go to Vegas and play craps

Great!!

I [almost] fully agree with you. In my younger days, I played a lot of SL and then ASL with my fellow group of maniacs: I always hated playing against (or even together with) those players who, before taking any action, devised a plan in their mind so complex it would have been well suited for an Army Group, much less for a lone infantry company. I admit they never wasted a single firepower or movement point, but it was as boring as watching the paint dry.

The [almost] above is there because I would like to have some more information in some fields, especially AT fire effectiveness. I think most AFV/gun crews had at least a vague idea of the capabilities of their own weapons. I once managed to kill a Panther with a front hit from a Russian 76mm AT gun and I am still wondering if I had been lucky and scored a critical hit or if it was a "normal" hit. How should then place a 76mm gun the next time I play a scenario with Panthers? Should I rely on their capability to pierce any aspect of the Panther or should I set them up so as to maximise their opportunity to take flank shots?
Another example which comes to my mind are LATWs: by way of example, do I have some chance to kill a PzIV with a US Baz43? Who knows?? I suppose that - except perhaps the very first times it was used - the troops in the field have at least some idea of its effectiveness.

I understand that most of us have at least some knowledge of WW2 weapons and AFV and none of us will ever duel at long range with a Tiger, but some extra info would be welcome.

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

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Post #: 21

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/15/2017 1:53:19 PM

rico21

Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
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I want to clarify that I am not part of the band of maniacs of up!

Attachment (1)

(in reply to ColRosenberger)

Post #: 22

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/15/2017 2:23:54 PM

UP844

Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline

Rico, I'm seriously considering an honorary membership for you

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

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Post #: 23

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/15/2017 4:59:24 PM

Hailstone

Posts: 666
Joined: 1/19/2016
From: Phoenix, AZ
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I thought we were the ones achieving the Honorable Membership from Rico! Has the tide turned? Insignificant people want to know.

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 24

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/15/2017 9:06:53 PM

rico21

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There are no insignificant people. The sun must shine for everyone.
All those who think the contrary are my natural enemies.

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Post #: 25

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/16/2017 1:02:25 AM

UP844

Posts: 1662
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From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
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Are you trying to tell us you come from a tidally locked planet?

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to rico21)

Post #: 26

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/16/2017 9:55:13 AM

Big Ivan

Posts: 1963
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From: Mansfield, Ohio USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

Rico, I'm seriously considering an honorary membership for you

Three Cheers for King Rico!!

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Post #: 27

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/16/2017 11:49:48 AM

rico21

Posts: 2990
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it's nice guys

but rather disappointed

, I'm not used to all this on the hostile planet where I live.

(in reply to ColRosenberger)

Post #: 28

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/16/2017 7:59:36 PM

Gerry4321

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hailstone

C'mon man, if you like throwing dice so much go to Vegas and play craps but I got to tell you TotH saved ASL. Think about it, ASL went under as the rules expanded because it was turning into a "spreadsheet". I never played ASL because I couldn't find anybody geeky enough to play against. I was more successful with Squad Leader and I played about 25 games. The thing is that not knowing all the details that go into the calculation of a dice roll forces you to play more by your gut instincts rather than a calculation. I think that is why I had more opponents for Squad Leader with less things to mathematically consider. Give TotH a chance with the intro scenarios and maybe you'd be surprised.

I think ASL is alive and well as evidenced by all the expensive products MMP and the third party vendors put out and all the players signing up for preorders for these products. They also have many national and international tournaments.

(in reply to Hailstone)

Post #: 29

RE: Rather disappointed in the game - 9/16/2017 8:19:41 PM

rico21

Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
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asl is alive but what is the average age of the players?