RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund)

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/3/2017 9:08:26 AM

glvaca

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TURN7
Sorry, forgot to make screenshots of turn6

so will do my best to summarize the 2 turns at once.

Here's a screenshot of the Hungary Marauders

The infestation has gone far wider than I had expected and I do wonder if there is any realism left with the new activation rules.
Going to post this on the tech forum later. Not complaining about PH, there was no house rules to prevent this and he does achieve his objective to keep a lot of troops occupied who could have done something more useful.
The Lvov pocket was cleaned out on T6.

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< Message edited by glvaca -- 7/3/2017 9:10:01 AM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/3/2017 9:56:08 AM

EwaldvonKleist

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Regarding the airforce: Be careful with the fighters. Their production is Germanys choke point in 1941. If you don't counter it, ignore the air war, have wrong settings and your opponent has read Dinglirs AARs about "Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich, Eastern Front edition", the Soviets can destroy 100+ fighters per turn, while replacements are only 30-40, which will neutralise the German fighter force until turn 12 or so. But current losses are a draw in the air in my book. So having enough AA gun, high % to interception, not overusing fighters for escort and making sure that all air armies cross-cover each other is important. I would also concentrate fighters in the 1HQ+2airbases stack because of 2 times bombing limit, losses of bombers (especially level bombers) aren't that important.

I don't think that airfield bombing is overpowered by the way, from my 1 game exp. the problem is that axis players think the air war for 1941 is done after T1 airfield bombing.
I am no expert regarding this but I watched 1 or 2 bombing runs on level 7 and for whatever reason many axis fighter losses were "crashed while landing", most likely as a result of fatigue and damage taken from Soviet fighters. Airfield bombing alone doesn't seem to be that effective from my experience.

One can ask "is this ahistorical"? The important question is: What had happened if the Soviets in 1941 would have concentrated their best planes against one air army after training their pilots in an all or nothing fight with the Luftwaffe. IMO rolling day and night all out attacks performed by nearly the entire Red Airforce against a single Fliegerkorps/Air army could have done severe damage if the Germans are catched off guard.

Question to Hardluck: Which is your "personal" AA gun setting for airbases? I assume heavy flak to counter high flying level bombers, leaving the light flak for the panzers/infantry to counter tac air?

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 7/3/2017 10:21:44 AM >

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Post #: 92

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/3/2017 12:57:02 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Regarding the airforce: Be careful with the fighters. Their production is Germanys choke point in 1941. If you don't counter it, ignore the air war, have wrong settings and your opponent has read Dinglirs AARs about "Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich, Eastern Front edition", the Soviets can destroy 100+ fighters per turn, while replacements are only 30-40, which will neutralise the German fighter force until turn 12 or so. But current losses are a draw in the air in my book. So having enough AA gun, high % to interception, not overusing fighters for escort and making sure that all air armies cross-cover each other is important. I would also concentrate fighters in the 1HQ+2airbases stack because of 2 times bombing limit, losses of bombers (especially level bombers) aren't that important.

I don't think that airfield bombing is overpowered by the way, from my 1 game exp. the problem is that axis players think the air war for 1941 is done after T1 airfield bombing.
I am no expert regarding this but I watched 1 or 2 bombing runs on level 7 and for whatever reason many axis fighter losses were "crashed while landing", most likely as a result of fatigue and damage taken from Soviet fighters. Airfield bombing alone doesn't seem to be that effective from my experience.

One can ask "is this ahistorical"? The important question is: What had happened if the Soviets in 1941 would have concentrated their best planes against one air army after training their pilots in an all or nothing fight with the Luftwaffe. IMO rolling day and night all out attacks performed by nearly the entire Red Airforce against a single Fliegerkorps/Air army could have done severe damage if the Germans are catched off guard.

Question to Hardluck: Which is your "personal" AA gun setting for airbases? I assume heavy flak to counter high flying level bombers, leaving the light flak for the panzers/infantry to counter tac air?

This is all very sound advice. I would like to emphasis a couple of points stated above. 1. Don't over utilize the German fighter wing(I personally don't do interdiction missions(plus these can be abused by the Soviet player i.e. moving a unit farther in the rear over and over until an interdiction mission happens where fighters can't reach. Thus being farther to the rear the German fighters wont be able to escort the bombers all the way to the interdiction location. Thus the Soviets can have fighters set up on Airbases to intercept those bombers and get free unescorted bomber kills). 2. I try and keep fatigue below ~15-20% as a threshold for a turns missions/movement, even that to me is too high but needed sometimes as situations dictate (I have free airbases that I move then transfer the plane to them to keep fatigue down when moving airbases. Painful tedious but very effective(it also has drawbacks)). I also rotate at a minimum a single fighter squadron to reserve every turn(the one with highest accumulated fatigue) 3. The Germans can still conduct airfield bombing after turn two too. With the right settings, the correct aircraft, these Airfield bombings are crazy effective. 4. Watch the supply of your airbases. No supply, no flying air missions.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/3/2017 1:05:06 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

TURN7
Sorry, forgot to make screenshots of turn6 so will do my best to summarize the 2 turns at once.

Here's a screenshot of the Hungary Marauders
The infestation has gone far wider than I had expected and I do wonder if there is any realism left with the new activation rules.
Going to post this on the tech forum later. Not complaining about PH, there was no house rules to prevent this and he does achieve his objective to keep a lot of troops occupied who could have done something more useful.
The Lvov pocket was cleaned out on T6.

They will auto surrender soon enough if not getting supply drops from the air. Normally around turn 7-10 for surrender. Just garrison the cities (which most are) and move everyone else to he front. I let Soviets that invade Hungry in 41 to free roam. The worst that is going to happen is rail will be broken but nothing serious can be done.

Other Hungry units wont activate either(at least in the old patches they didn't)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 7/3/2017 1:13:05 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/3/2017 1:16:45 PM

EwaldvonKleist

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@Hardluck: Thanks for the further comments. I love high interdiction settings on the enemy side! As Soviets I moved around the useless corps/airbases around to cause interdiction missions, but in fighter range to make them tired. After some time I stroke with my Mig 3 and level bombers, the Germans suffered :)
Ground support is another thing. For whatever reason allot of fighters react for every attack. If you do not intercept them, they fly useless missions, causing even more fatigue and maybe even some flak losses.
Regarding 3): What are the "right settings" to bomb Soviet airbases? I suppose good fighters, a bit juggling around with airbases and air transfer and finally taking level bombers with high cruise speed?

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/3/2017 2:08:32 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
Here's a screenshot of the Hungary Marauders

Now that's what I'm talking about!

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
I finally take measures to limit his "breakthrough" into Hungary.

Given that they are cut-off I think it is better called "marauding"

I concur :D

But MarauderHU does not!

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
They will auto surrender soon enough if not getting supply drops from the air. Normally around turn 7-10 for surrender. Just garrison the cities (which most are) and move everyone else to he front. I let Soviets that invade Hungry in 41 to free roam. The worst that is going to happen is rail will be broken but nothing serious can be done.

Other Hungry units wont activate either(at least in the old patches they didn't)

But the broken rail is serious. AGS starts off with about 30 construction units and you have the Rumanians. You need an auto rail repair route that bypasses Rumania as it is quicker for German arrivals and necessary for Hungarians if they are not to walk to the frontlines. If your construction units are repairing rail in Hungary they are not going to be creating the extra lines you might want from Hungary/Poland. Perhaps it is different for glvaca as he has two FBDs south from early in the game. But I am guessing his auto rail repair will be five or six hexes short of where it would otherwise have been.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 7/3/2017 4:02:17 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/3/2017 2:40:35 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
Here's a screenshot of the Hungary Marauders

Now that' what I'm talking about!

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
I finally take measures to limit his "breakthrough" into Hungary.

Given that they are cut-off I think it is better called "marauding"

I concur :D

But MarauderHU does not!

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
They will auto surrender soon enough if not getting supply drops from the air. Normally around turn 7-10 for surrender. Just garrison the cities (which most are) and move everyone else to he front. I let Soviets that invade Hungry in 41 to free roam. The worst that is going to happen is rail will be broken but nothing serious can be done.

Other Hungry units wont activate either(at least in the old patches they didn't)

But the broken rail is serious. AGS starts off with about 30 construction units and you have the Rumanians. You need an auto rail repair route that bypasses Rumania as it is quicker for German arrivals and necessary for Hungarians if they are not to walk to the frontlines. If your construction units are repairing rail in Hungary they are not going to be creating the extra lines you might want from Hungary/Poland. Perhaps it is different for glvaca as he has two FBDs south from early in the game. But I am guessing his auto rail repair will be five or six hexes short of where it would otherwise have been.

To me this isnt serious, to use alot of the extra troops to chase marauders is. You have multiple avenues of rail to Romania to get troops to the front since repair of the Lvov area rail line still takes forever to repair as is. So most reinforcements will still be going through Romania well into the future(at least that is what I do). At a minimum a few regiments can be used to block where the marauders go but the mass of troops chasing these marauders is not something the Germans want to start doing. The German side is all about being the most efficient with the least amount of troops, in this case the Soviet side would win when front line troops are chasing marauders. After the Marauders are gone put a GHQ HQ, Romanian HQ, or Italian HQ with a couple of workers in it to repair what was done.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/3/2017 2:47:48 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@Hardluck: Thanks for the further comments. I love high interdiction settings on the enemy side! As Soviets I moved around the useless corps/airbases around to cause interdiction missions, but in fighter range to make them tired. After some time I stroke with my Mig 3 and level bombers, the Germans suffered :)
Ground support is another thing. For whatever reason allot of fighters react for every attack. If you do not intercept them, they fly useless missions, causing even more fatigue and maybe even some flak losses.
Regarding 3): What are the "right settings" to bomb Soviet airbases? I suppose good fighters, a bit juggling around with airbases and air transfer and finally taking level bombers with high cruise speed?

Exactly EwaldvonKleist, I gave one example & you gave another great example on why not to fly interdiction. Interdiction is a bane, don't fly it if you know what is good for you as Germany.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/3/2017 3:13:36 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
To me this isnt serious, to use alot of the extra troops to chase marauders is. You have multiple avenues of rail to Romania to get troops to the front since repair of the Lvov area rail line still takes forever to repair as is. So most reinforcements will still be going through Romania well into the future(at least that is what I do). At a minimum a few regiments can be used to block where the marauders go but the mass of troops chasing these marauders is not something the Germans want to start doing. The German side is all about being the most efficient with the least amount of troops, in this case the Soviet side would win when front line troops are chasing marauders. After the Marauders are gone put a GHQ HQ, Romanian HQ, or Italian HQ with a couple of workers in it to repair what was done.

I suppose I half agree with you there - it is painful to see Hungarian mobile units for their brief stay in the game chasing marauders in Hungary. But when I faced an opponent who was determined to invade Hungary I used the cavalry, security and mountain unit to block every Soviet attempt on the rails. When they went North I went North, they went South I went South etc. And when the 4th Mountain division unfreezes use that to slowly eliminate the contained marauders along with the Hungarians.

I think glvaca was caught out because he relied on the activation rules as described in the manual which are not correct. But knowing you cannot rely on a Hungarian activation means you should take the marauding seriously and use the three Hungarian non-motorised units to contain it.

My experience is I can get a bypass rail line around Rumania by auto repair before winter. This means that German arrivals can arrive at the front a turn earlier, and Hungarian unfreezers many many turns earlier. If they are working in Hungary it just will not happen.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/3/2017 5:12:46 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
To me this isnt serious, to use alot of the extra troops to chase marauders is. You have multiple avenues of rail to Romania to get troops to the front since repair of the Lvov area rail line still takes forever to repair as is. So most reinforcements will still be going through Romania well into the future(at least that is what I do). At a minimum a few regiments can be used to block where the marauders go but the mass of troops chasing these marauders is not something the Germans want to start doing. The German side is all about being the most efficient with the least amount of troops, in this case the Soviet side would win when front line troops are chasing marauders. After the Marauders are gone put a GHQ HQ, Romanian HQ, or Italian HQ with a couple of workers in it to repair what was done.

I suppose I half agree with you there - it is painful to see Hungarian mobile units for their brief stay in the game chasing marauders in Hungary. But when I faced an opponent who was determined to invade Hungary I used the cavalry, security and mountain unit to block every Soviet attempt on the rails. When they went North I went North, they went South I went South etc. And when the 4th Mountain division unfreezes use that to slowly eliminate the contained marauders along with the Hungarians.

I think glvaca was caught out because he relied on the activation rules as described in the manual which are not correct. But knowing you cannot rely on a Hungarian activation means you should take the marauding seriously and use the three Hungarian non-motorised units to contain it.

My experience is I can get a bypass rail line around Rumania by auto repair before winter. This means that German arrivals can arrive at the front a turn earlier, and Hungarian unfreezers many many turns earlier. If they are working in Hungary it just will not happen.

Ah, I see. Thank you Telemecus makes sense :)

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/15/2017 8:58:03 PM

glvaca

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Thanks for all the tips on using the air force.
I did fly interdiction missions in the early turns but stopped when I saw it increased my losses to an unsustainable degree.

Two questions:
1. Luftflotte 2 and FliegerKorps 2 are scheduled to withdraw at some point. What happens to the airbases and planes?
2. I now stack fighter airbases with a FliegerKorpsor Luftflotte HQ packed with AA. However, sometimes the flak does not kick in. Any tips?

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/15/2017 9:02:01 PM

glvaca

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TURN7 NORTH START
On T6 I pushed forward with Von Manstein's PzC supported by infantry. I was actually able to hasty attack a FZ just below Asinovets but was unable to get across and now it's heavily defended by 3 tank divisions.
Reinharts Corps followed up and is now in a good position to consolidate the breakthrough. Leningrad is doomed.

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< Message edited by glvaca -- 7/15/2017 9:10:54 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/15/2017 9:15:51 PM

glvaca

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TURN7 END
Again the excellent infantry does the heavy lifting, clearing the way and I Corps is moved into position to attack across the Neva next turn.
At least 15+ divisions are "cut-off" in Leningrad.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/15/2017 9:30:26 PM

glvaca

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TURN7 CENTRE START
On turn 6 I unleash the rested panzers in a pincer move to pocket some of his best units to the North of Smolensk. The infantry has caught up and does the opening attacks in bad Panzer terrain.
I leave the turn confident the pocket cannot be broken. To my BIG surprise one hex has flipped back to Russian control and there is no unit?

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/15/2017 9:34:08 PM

glvaca

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This is what happened. It's the first time he uses this para-drop trick to break a pocket and it won't be the last.
It's not against our house rules but I now remember why I always played with a no para drop house rule before. A turn lost.
What makes it even more annoying is that the drop was intercepted an NO unit is actually in the hex. Perhaps that should be looked at.

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< Message edited by glvaca -- 7/15/2017 9:35:14 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/15/2017 9:40:46 PM

glvaca

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TURN7 CENTRE END

I further exploit and focus on making the pocket airtight.
The road to Moscow seems ready for the taking.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 9:24:40 AM

glvaca

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TURN7 SOUTH START
On T6 I had breached the Dnepr in 2 places and exploit with the Wiking to ZOC as many units as I can. Since he had still units on the West bank, these units are Zocced and cannot retreat fast enough.
Almost the entire 6th, 11th, 1St PzG and 17th Army is hugging the Dnepr. Amazingly, he re-opens the small pocket between D & Z-towns and I curse myself for not kicking them out earlier.

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< Message edited by glvaca -- 7/16/2017 10:31:00 AM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 9:32:13 AM

glvaca

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TURN7 SOUTH END

Unfortunately, no pic of ending in the South. I basically make room for the follow-up divisions and turn East to create a moderate size pocket close to D-Town.
Multiple divisions further North are also zoc locked.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 9:35:45 AM

glvaca

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OOB

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 9:40:00 AM

glvaca

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AIR

His base bombing offensive is now in full swing. I lose more than 100 fighters in one turn, luckily, most of them are bf109E3's which I had assigned to soon to be leaving air groups.
This gets my attention though and I start to implement counter measures.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 9:55:57 AM

glvaca

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TURN8 NORTH
MUD!

Although the weather prediction was clear for all zones it's mud in the Central Soviet Zone. The Leningrad offensive grinds to a halt. What makes it even worse is the 1 point morale drop for my best units preparing for the attack over the Neva.
I hate losing morale

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 10:43:56 AM

glvaca

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TURN8 CENTRE

this is a situation I've never been in before(having always played with fixed weather), My Eastern most units are not in Mud, the others are.
I manage to reduce the pocket somewhat and push the line to the East. But in between the para drop and now mud, The window of opportunity for a quick strike on Moscow is closing fast.
PH, does another para drop in the red circled hex saving 2 units from destruction for a turn longer.

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< Message edited by glvaca -- 7/16/2017 4:29:14 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 10:51:58 AM

glvaca

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TURN8 SOUTH
Not much movement in the South due to mud. The remnants of the pocket close to D-Town can be seen.
D-Town and Poltava fall with little industry left. I'll give a round-up of the industry captured at the end of the summer.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 10:53:53 AM

glvaca

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For the first time I see a strange message in the event log.
Apparently 50K German population is missing?

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 10:56:59 AM

glvaca

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OOB
I just can't get him below 4 million.
We're almost on air parity despite his airfield bombing campaign.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 10:58:04 AM

glvaca

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AIR
Another bad turn for the fighter arm.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 10:58:39 AM

glvaca

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GROUND

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 11:00:23 AM

glvaca

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PROD

Still doing good on ARM's.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 2:57:45 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
What makes it even more annoying is that the drop was intercepted an NO unit is actually in the hex. Perhaps that should be looked at.

In the destroyed units screen at the beginning of the turn was there a lost airborne unit? My guess is with those kind of losses of transport aircraft the whole unit must have been destroyed in mid-air? If so the missing unit is not a bad thing but a good thing. The question remains though should they have been able to flip a hex control doing that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
For the first time I see a strange message in the event log.
Apparently 50K German population is missing?

As the event log says Axis could that be from the Hungarian marauders?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 7/16/2017 3:51:32 PM >

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Post #: 119

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 7/16/2017 4:57:59 PM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

AIR

His base bombing offensive is now in full swing. I lose more than 100 fighters in one turn,

I hope BrianG does not read this AAR. It would do great damage to his self-esteem

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