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Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI

 
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Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/1/2017 6:20:17 PM   
Auchinleck

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		Playing WIF in Solitaire is like playing Chess by yourself. It gets boring in a hurry. Where's the 'surprise strategies' supposed to come from? Good luck surprising yourself.
Post #: 1
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/1/2017 11:49:49 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		If you play historically (or even if you don't), there's huge variability in the die rolls and that can totally alter the outcomes from one battle to the next, and thus ultimately from one game to another. Likewise the timing of US activation has a large impact. Granted it's not the same thing as having complete ignorance of the other side's plans, but it does add a sizable degree of uncertainty.

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to Auchinleck)
Post #: 2
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/2/2017 12:10:48 AM   
davidachamberlain

 

Posts: 326
Joined: 1/21/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Auchinleck

Playing WIF in Solitaire is like playing Chess by yourself. It gets boring in a hurry. Where's the 'surprise strategies' supposed to come from? Good luck surprising yourself.

There are many surprises:
1) the weather (it can change several times during the turn)
2) the die rolls (even good odds have bad luck and bad odds have good luck every so often)
3) your memory (the more countries you dealing with, the better the chances that you will forget to do something)

4) initiative losses giving the other side an advantage
5) early turn ending preventing completing the actions before production (and reinforcement)

It is still sufficiently playable solo, but it is better with a human opponent, who will be affected by these same factors as you will be.

I expect a challenging AI is still some time away. I will be (pleasantly) surprised if it gets implemented for the most challenging scenarios.

In the mean time, either continue with solo or look to local friends or try using Netplay or Teamviewer with someone remote.

I currently play in a group of 4 located in 3 different cities using a combination of Netplay and Teamviewer. Those are mostly weekly like we used to play in person when we were all living in the same city.

Dave

< Message edited by davidachamberlain -- 7/2/2017 5:52:35 AM >

(in reply to Auchinleck)
Post #: 3
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/2/2017 3:13:57 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Make the best moves you can and then flip the board around and you'll be surprised what you spot. One advantage of solitaire is you can take as much time as you like without someone thruming their fingers anxiously.

But I do agree it's more fun and more social to find some opponents and play them by email and/or screen sharing.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 7/2/2017 3:17:11 AM >

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to davidachamberlain)
Post #: 4
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/2/2017 5:55:16 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Auchinleck

Playing WIF in Solitaire is like playing Chess by yourself. It gets boring in a hurry. Where's the 'surprise strategies' supposed to come from? Good luck surprising yourself.
warspite1

Depending on the quality of the AI (which, as we war gamers know only too well of course, varies from game to game) it may be more fun to play against an AI than against yourself. Maybe. How good will a MWIF AI be? Who knows, until it’s made the jury is out – but there is no guarantee it will be any good of course.

Whether playing on your own gets boring in a hurry or not I guess depends on the player. I would not consider playing solo (other than with an AI) for 99% of games. But because of the mechanics of WIF, MWIF is different. There are no guaranteed strategies. And from a historical perspective it’s not unrealistic either. There were very few operations at a strategic level - and this is a strategic game – that were unknown to the other side. Off the top of my head, Norway was perhaps the best example from both sides point of view. But France? The Soviet Union? Japan? None of these were surprises. The exact timing? Yes, but that they were going to happen? No.

France is a good example. Germany were going to attack, her forces were ranged in the west ready to attack. The Allies knew an attack was coming. They didn’t know when. Had the weather been better, the Germans would have attacked in the winter! Fortunately for Germany, the weather precluded any such ill-timed adventures, and they attacked in May. Early war the Allies were on the backfoot, they could only react to what the Germans did. This is true of MWIF (barring hideous dice).

Another good example is Sea Lion. It does not matter if you are playing yourself or an AI or another human. If the Germans don't build the necessary units, then Sea Lion isn't an issue and the CW can look to bolster the Med. But if the Germans build AMPH and TRS and gain Gibraltar, then the CW needs to ensure an adequate defence of the UK.

It’s definitely more fun to play with one or more other humans and this is at least possible using PBEM. I have had many hours of fun playing solo, but was really pleased when the chance to play Orm – and later AllenK and Mayhemizer - came along as it definitely adds something.
$100 is a lot of money and I am sorry that you feel you have wasted your money. Sadly it is the nature of computer wargames that this happens it seems. I have easily wasted that amount on games I never played – too buggy or simply not good enough – and am far more selective of games I purchase nowadays.

Will an AI ever be made? Will it be any good? Who knows?




_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Auchinleck)
Post #: 5
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/2/2017 5:59:56 AM   
Majorball68


Posts: 490
Joined: 11/22/2013
Status: offline 		There isn't many good strategic wargames with an AI, World if Flames is really good to play by email. Using an internet die roller it is probably best PBEM. The netplay is buggy but in my opinion it takes so long to play this game that netplay is not practical anyway. Go to the AAR threads and see the many good games vs other opponents.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 6
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/3/2017 8:37:10 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Auchinleck

Playing WIF in Solitaire is like playing Chess by yourself. It gets boring in a hurry. Where's the 'surprise strategies' supposed to come from? Good luck surprising yourself.


No matter I feel the same about a game without AI, it was pretty clear when we bought it that there was not and that it wouldn't come anytime soon.

Anytime soon has become even more time than expected but...

Some day, if Steve goes back to improving Netplay instead or mending and re-mending, and re-mending again the Solitaire maybe we´ll have a possibility of playing against humans and that won't be so bad.

(in reply to Auchinleck)
Post #: 7
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/3/2017 9:00:26 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Auchinleck

Playing WIF in Solitaire is like playing Chess by yourself. It gets boring in a hurry. Where's the 'surprise strategies' supposed to come from? Good luck surprising yourself.


No matter I feel the same about a game without AI, it was pretty clear when we bought it that there was not and that it wouldn't come anytime soon.

Anytime soon has become even more time than expected but...

Some day, if Steve goes back to improving Netplay instead or mending and re-mending, and re-mending again the Solitaire maybe we´ll have a possibility of playing against humans and that won't be so bad.


there´s really no point in improving Netplay. when it is based on the bugged solitaire code.

why dont people understand that. you cant make netplay work, until solitaire work

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 8
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/3/2017 9:28:02 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		There are many exclusively netplay bugs. Some prevent even starting to deploy, and, so play, and so, beta test.

As far as these are not addressed the Netplay will not advance, and we'll have an eternal Solitaire game. In this, yes, there is a true reason for disappointment, because nobody warned this would be a solitaire only game. One thing is that the AI was not included in the release and another that there was no netplay.

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 9
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/3/2017 2:57:13 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Auchinleck

Playing WIF in Solitaire is like playing Chess by yourself. It gets boring in a hurry. Where's the 'surprise strategies' supposed to come from? Good luck surprising yourself.


No matter I feel the same about a game without AI, it was pretty clear when we bought it that there was not and that it wouldn't come anytime soon.

Anytime soon has become even more time than expected but...

Some day, if Steve goes back to improving Netplay instead or mending and re-mending, and re-mending again the Solitaire maybe we´ll have a possibility of playing against humans and that won't be so bad.


there´s really no point in improving Netplay. when it is based on the bugged solitaire code.

why dont people understand that. you cant make netplay work, until solitaire work


The problem we are now having, is that things which have been changed for netplay did cause bugs in solitair. So bug fixing should happen on both sides at the same time, I believe...


_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 10
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/3/2017 4:51:42 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		This is why a few of us continue to quietly test NetPlay even though the announced fixes are for the Solitaire bugs that were caused by working on NetPlay. (Of course our saved game is past the Set-up phases.) But the hope is for early identification of possibly the reverse problem.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 11
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/4/2017 7:15:46 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I bought the game - and I do not feel to have wasted my cash for it.
Nowadays I play on Vassal with the new rules and such. But I've to admit if I've learnt how to play the game is thanks to MWiF.

I consider myself a veteran tabletop player - and my father all of what is at avail of WiFFE (and even like WiF 5th edition or the 4th) by many years except the Annuals and America / Patton. Yet the game has never been played. Pratically all the counters are still in their sheets - except some as father tried Barbarossa scenario - long long ago.
This game alas has a big hindrance - when it comes down to tabletop: time required with space required combined. It's not even a game you can finish in a weekend long full immersion (as some other WW2 games may).
To not play the game also implies you do not explore and learn it - for the marvel it is.

The hop to computer gaming solves entirely the major problem of the game - the aforementioned time & space required.
You can just save your MWiF match (or Vassal ongoing game) without the need to note down counter by counter where they're.

The forced rules here teaches you the game and the mechanics. I found myself correcting on many things players who play since years with RAW7 on Vassal when I joined their group. This or that mistake.
Look at this as a 100 bucket tutorial of how to play the game - which I think is well worth it.
AND yes it may lack AI - but in my personal experience any game of this magnitudo (and even a far smaller magnitudo as well) has a shoddy and crappy AI that a human tends to faceroll once they've learnt the game.

The fact this game is a translation of a tabletop game comes in with the positive notes that is studied to be played by humans without the aid of a computer. You do not have 300 different variables per unit (supplies in specific quantity, morale, readyness, distance from HQ, C3I checks and such - which in different forms are present in other games).
You get the streamlining required for a human (An In-Supply corp has a specific value, and another if Out-of-Supply; you do not need to compute through that trillion of variable that anyhow sums up in you as player just checking the preview / estimate outcome of the combat.).

You learn the ropes - and then you can either play against another player using MWiF (many topics on the matter already at hand, even before Netplay came at hand).
Or then move to Vassal and hop in a group - maybe watching their sessions first. Somewhen someone may start a new game and they'd like to nurture in a newcomer. (Players always go, somewhen, as life demands their focus elsewhere).

I can assure you, if you were to buy the whole game from ADG - besides the joy of having real counters - you'd face many more problems, you'd take tenfold the time to learn the game, and then you'd struggle to find a sacrificial lamb ... ehm I mean an opponent up to place face to face. Which, hey, would be golden and ace, but time...space...
And the only reason for which I moved onward to Vassal it's because new rules are coming out with changes and modifies that make MWiF "out of date" from my wargamer perspective. It still remain a valid game, just I am used to play by what for wargames are "living rules", as per the up to date changes that modify possible issues or problems of balance / gimmicks the game offers.
There are still many tradeoffs. Things you may miss when stuff is not automatized; or the pain to calculating your production (not much of a pain for who knows some math, but the CW can be quite terrifying for someone starting on tabletop!)

Without MWiF I'd not have discovered this pearl of a game (WiF in general) in its technicalities and how it polishes out the fact you have many decisions to take through a sea of variables which are made by the details and interlocking aero-naval land system.
Decisions and variables that an AI would not be able to take unless it's like an AI style of the old movie Wargames - an AI for the Pentagon!

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 12
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/14/2017 8:36:23 PM   
tom730_slith

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 1/28/2014
Status: offline 		I bought the one I play at full price - $99. I have had more hours of fun on this than any two console games at $59 each, so the entertainment value for me has huge! So much so, I recently bought a "sale priced" version for a dear friend in Colorado (I live in Maryland) We haven't played together yet, but if he's having fun that's all that matters!
I'm not rich, but what is the big deal about $100 when compared to the "fun value?"

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 13
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/15/2017 7:47:45 PM   
gw15


Posts: 919
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline 		Yes, Tom I agree with you. I've had hours and hours of fun with this game. Reading the history notes on each counter is so cool.
I hope netplay gets better. I have two games waiting for a fix. One game got to MJ 40 before we hit a stopping bug.

(in reply to tom730_slith)
Post #: 14
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 7:48:15 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		I can not say I had any fun with it, since only the solitaire is really working 100% and I don't like the alternative solutions for PBEM or playing MP with external programs.

I have enjoyed the excitement of a promise, with easier deployments, and a promise of an outstanding game taken to the computer but.

Fun = 0, for me. I have not been able to play an only game, not even a short scenario, with anybody else or an AI.

(in reply to gw15)
Post #: 15
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 10:43:57 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Well - where are you from, Jose?
By the name I believe you may hail from Spain (or Portugal!) - or alternatively Latin America.

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 16
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 10:52:02 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		I come from Bilbao (hex 2023) but have lived in Madrid (hex 2118) for more than 25 years now.

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 17
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 11:06:05 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Right now I cannot offer you gaming - but if you are willing to get a Vassal module you can come watch when I play. (So yes, not MWiF per sé)
Not sure how long they can last as games - but it's a way to get in touch with more people; and as in one game we're only 2 once that's over we may insert you in for example (assuming my pal does not mind).
Though our time of gaming is not very easy.

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 18
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 11:47:37 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		Thanks for the intention. I know Vassal from a long time, but for me it's not good because it doesn't enforce the rules. Anybody can make a mistake and I use to make more than the average. I would hate to make involuntary illegal moves, first because it's unfair, and second because trying to undo it may get complicated.

That's why I don't use vassal. Happily enough some times I can get my wargaming group to play a Europe or Asia wif scenario. Right now we are starting a Europe one, I have just started invading Poland and this weekend I hope we'll go on. So I am not in "abstinence syndrome".

Anyway it may be nice to see some online gaming, not playing it myself, less worries about possible illegal moves. And the time... it depends, considering my working hour, plus classes, etc., sometimes I get my leisure in uncommon hours.


(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 19
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 1:52:58 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline 		Mmmm....what's "Vassal"?

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 20
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 1:54:06 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I come from Bilbao (hex 2023) but have lived in Madrid (hex 2118) for more than 25 years now.

And a Republican simpathizer I'd dare say, judging from the counter.

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 21
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 2:10:06 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:



What is Vassal?

Vassal is a game engine for building and playing online adaptations of board games and card games. Play live on the Internet or by email. Vassal runs on all platforms, and is free, open-source software.


http://www.vassalengine.org/

Yes, a legitimate government sympathizer, Also it helps I am mostly leftist although open to other inputs, but never fascist.

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 22
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 2:28:07 PM   
4personalbusiness

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 11/23/2016
Status: offline 		It's also possible to make mistakes in face-to-face games. Why are mistakes made while playing VASSAL worse than mistakes made while playing with the cardboard game?

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 23
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 3:50:46 PM   
tom730_slith

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 1/28/2014
Status: offline 		Have you posted for opponents? There is a player who posts here quite a bit who lives in Spain. He seems to really love the game and his posts are always insightful! I know Spain is a big country but if he lives in Madrid you could be in for some great gaming! He also has mentioned playing with someone and about optional rules they have used. I'll try to locate him and give you his screen name!


So far found "Juntoalmar" who lives in Valencia (nice place for a short vacation!) and he has this bog - (my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/

He's not the one I was thinking of and when I have time I'll look again. In the meantime, why not post for opponents in Spain? Best of luck! One of the wonderful things about this game is that it is truly a "world" game, and not just an Australian game!

< Message edited by tom730 -- 7/17/2017 3:59:02 PM >

(in reply to 4personalbusiness)
Post #: 24
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 5:42:37 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I can not say I had any fun with it, since only the solitaire is really working 100%

warspite1

I just don't understand why you keep repeating this nonsense? Solitaire is working 100%? Allow me to explain:

NO.IT.ISN'T.

And I am at a total loss here. I don't know why you keep misrepresenting the situation. After the last lot of unpleasantness I have let the last couple of comments along these lines go - but this is just silly.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 25
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 5:49:34 PM   
Jagdtiger14


Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, a legitimate government sympathizer, Also it helps I am mostly leftist although open to other inputs, but never fascist.


How about a sympathizer of a very weak minority government that arrests/assassinates its political opponents?

< Message edited by Jagdtiger14 -- 7/17/2017 5:56:43 PM >

_____________________________

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 26
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 5:55:27 PM   
juntoalmar


Posts: 601
Joined: 9/29/2013
From: Valencia
Status: offline 		Hi Jose,

I have been quite busy lately so I stopped playing regularly since February (I had a wonderful 4player PBEM game before that, but I know it's not your thing). I'm starting a Master Degree this September, and I still don't know how many free time I will struggle to have during the course and if I will have enough time to play a game (or maybe just a "slow game").

I'm sure there are more Spanish players around (I found a few in the web forum PuntadeLanza.net) so maybe you can try there as well.

PD: although quite a republican and lefty myself, all changes when it comes to play WWII wargames...

_____________________________

(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 27
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 5:55:41 PM   
Jagdtiger14


Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline
quote:

warspite1 I just don't understand why you keep repeating this nonsense? Solitaire is working 100%? Allow me to explain: NO.IT.ISN'T. And I am at a total loss here. I don't know why you keep misrepresenting the situation. After the last lot of unpleasantness I have let the last couple of comments along these lines go - but this is just silly.


I may be confusing terminology here (solitaire/PBEM), but I am currently playing a bloke in Melbourne exchanging files by e-mail and also using Viber to speed up communications. We are using version 2.3.4. This version has only a few minor bugs and is completely playable and enjoyable. We are about to finish 1942 and having a lot of fun.


_____________________________

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 28
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 5:57:04 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline 		-

< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 7/17/2017 5:59:01 PM >

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 29
RE: Sorry I invested $100 for a Game with No AI - 7/17/2017 6:10:53 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

quote:

warspite1 I just don't understand why you keep repeating this nonsense? Solitaire is working 100%? Allow me to explain: NO.IT.ISN'T. And I am at a total loss here. I don't know why you keep misrepresenting the situation. After the last lot of unpleasantness I have let the last couple of comments along these lines go - but this is just silly.


I may be confusing terminology here (solitaire/PBEM), but I am currently playing a bloke in Melbourne exchanging files by e-mail and also using Viber to speed up communications. We are using version 2.3.4. This version has only a few minor bugs and is completely playable and enjoyable. We are about to finish 1942 and having a lot of fun.

warspite1

Well that's good to hear. Orm and I have started a game of Barbarossa using the latest beta and so far we have supply issues, reinforcement issues and interface issues - and that's on turn 1. These are at least present in Barbarossa, but probably elsewhere to. I am aware of other issues too. And let's not start on convoys. I am not raising all this to pile onto Steve (we are where we are) - its just bloody infuriating to be told everything is fine and that solitaire players have no right to ask for a stable version.....


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 30
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