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Origin of the German 88 AT role?

 
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Origin of the German 88 AT role? - 5/24/2001 11:07:00 PM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline 		We all know that the 88 is an awesome AT weapon. I've been toying with the idea of designing a scenario showing the origin of a FLAK weapon being used in a PAK role. I believe that it was first used this way in Spain? Was this a field improvision or established doctrine? can anyone point me to a source of this kind of information or tell me something about it? Many thanks!

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- 5/24/2001 11:15:00 PM   
Resisti


Posts: 1351
Joined: 1/22/2001
From: Livorno, Italy
Status: offline 		If I'm not wrong there some references in the thread i started few days ago named "German 88's";it's actually at page 3 of this forum

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Federico "Resisti" Doveri

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- 5/24/2001 11:45:00 PM   
lnp4668

 

Posts: 517
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Arlington, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I believe that Rommel start to use them in the desert. Checks out www.achtungpanzer.com

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- 5/24/2001 11:49:00 PM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
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From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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quote:

Originally posted by Resisti: If I'm not wrong there some references in the thread i started few days ago named "German 88's";it's actually at page 3 of this forum
Thanks, a link to the manual for artillery in the desert said that they were designed with an AT capability in mind and that AT ammo was produced early on for this purpose. It also said that they were first used in the AT role in Spain '36. Can anyone help me with a source for AARs, etc. on this kind of early battle?

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- 5/24/2001 11:58:00 PM   
Panther

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 4/19/2000
From: Dover,NH,USA
Status: offline 		I also think that the 88 were used at the battle at aaras in france when the french did their counter attack and nothing could really stop them until they encountered the 88 near what I think it was Rommels HQ

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- 5/25/2001 12:07:00 AM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline 		Yes, the 88 was used for the first time at Arras, to stop Matilda's. It was used the same way in the desert. Both times in desperation as the German AT guns sucked against things like 'tilda's and later T-34s. :) Alex

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- 5/25/2001 12:30:00 AM   
Voriax

 

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Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		For 88's in Spain, check: http://www.jps.net/perrya/NewFiles/scw11.html Unfortunately doesn't tell the exact location & time of their use, but an interesting article nevertheless. Voriax

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- 5/25/2001 12:35:00 AM   
Grumble

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline 		Spain was first use IIRC. I believe that "Panzer Commander" by von Luck, and "Panzer Battles" by von Mellinthin, both allude to this employment. Ian Hogg's book on German Artillery might also be of use to you. The best source would naturally be AARs from the units involved, if any survive. Sounds like an excuse for a trip to the Bundesarchiv :)

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- 5/25/2001 12:37:00 AM   
Kluckenbill

 

Posts: 278
Joined: 6/7/2000
From: Lancaster, PA, USA
Status: offline 		The first use I'm aware of is also at Arras. However, the designers of the gun must have had the AT role in mind since the guns had excellent direct fire sights and armor piercing ammunition. Also the Flak unit commanders must have anticipated the PAK use of the guns since they had AP Ammunition available at the front and the crews were trained to use it. I recall reading accounts of US 90mm AA units that fired AA Ammo at German tanks (with no effect) during the Ardennes Offensive because they had no AT Ammo at the unit level.

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- 5/25/2001 12:42:00 AM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline 		Excellent advice Voriax & Grumble! I think the link to the spanish was is just what I need. Geography, OOB, dates, etc. Thanks!

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Post #: 10
- 5/25/2001 4:05:00 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Werner Muller has a book exclusively on the 88flak, which I do not have. It may be more available elsewhere, but here it is anyway: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764303937/qid=990739033/sr=1-1/re f=sc_b_1/107-1449905-0030169 Here's two more: http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/groundgerman/0887403417.html http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/groundgerman/0887402631.html [ May 24, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]

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- 5/25/2001 9:31:00 AM   
BruceAZ


Posts: 608
Joined: 10/9/2000
From: California
Status: offline 		Good reading!

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- 5/25/2001 7:16:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		This is my understanding too. The 88 had its introduction to anti-tank warfare during the SCW. I was thinking about that as I read these posts and picturing the devastation such a weapon could cause in those flimsy tanks of the late 30s! :eek: Wild Bill

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Wild Bill Wilder
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Post #: 13
- 5/25/2001 8:16:00 PM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline 		[QB]Spain was first use IIRC. I believe that "Panzer Commander" by von Luck, and "Panzer Battles" by von Mellinthin, both allude to this employment. Actually, neither of them mention SCW at all. In fact, von Luck never talks about Spain in any way, not suprising given the style he wrote on. Von Mellenthin mentions Spain once, on Page 427, in his final synopsis of the war chapter. Again, the first use of it I've even seen documented was by 7th PzDiv at Arras. I've heard rumors Guderian used them at Sedan, but if so he doesn't choose to mention it in his own memoirs. I'd think that if they had been used in Spain in an AT role, than they would have been used the same way in Poland, or, by General Hoepner's armored corps when they fought a 2 day battle against General Prioux's 2nd and 3rd Mech Divisions during a four day battle from 12 to 16 May, 1940, in Belgium where the Germans lost 160 tanks. Alex

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"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

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Post #: 14
- 5/25/2001 8:25:00 PM   
Bonzo

 

Posts: 676
Joined: 9/3/2000
From: Peace River, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		In "Tank Killing" by Ian Hogg, Page 9 he discusses a bit about the SCW. "... The Germans did emerge from this testing ground of a war with one useful nugget of information: they had taken a few 88mm Anti-anti-craft guns to Spain and, in a small and otherwise unremarkable skirmish, had been compelled to turn these weapons on to a few approaching Soviet BT-4 tanks, and blew them apart." They used HE shells, since that was all they had, but as a result of this incident, the guns were allocated a secondary antitank tasking which resulted in the issuing of a direct fire sight and an AP shell. The use by Rommel of 88s at the battle of Arras was on May 21, 1940, where a force of British 1st Tank Brigade Matildas and French 3rd Light Armoured Division SOUMA 35s along with a battalion of the South Durham Light Infantry shattered 2 rifle regiments of the 7th Panzer Division while cutting it in two and caused the 3rd SS division to panic & run. Rommel pulled together a defensive line & stopped their armour with the Flak 88s.

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