Any hope?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> Any hope?

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Any hope? - 7/31/2017 6:16:02 AM

witpaemail

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Recent on line game against a friend of mine that I have played against for almost 50 years (a lot of 3R in there). Im allies. Early 1941 he has built the entire German air force pool and currently has level 2 ground attack. He kills 3 units a turn in England. I have level 1 AA, have AA in all my units AND all my towns. Had 3 fighter units as well, but they died early. Nothing I can do to counter it. I even sent in 5 carriers set to cap to try to stem the tide, but no joy.

I was US Army airborne/infantry/ranger for 12 years. Sorry, but no number of airplanes is going to "kill" a corps or army sized unit, I dont care how much bombing they do it (WW II era now remember - no Apaches and smart bombs here).

I can see killing ships and air units outright: hard for them to hide. But killing multiple whole armies in a single turn was enough to get me to uninstall the game. The absolute MOST airstrikes alone with NO spotters on the ground should be able to achieve is disruption (may go as far as allow 25% casualties). And from what I have read, level 3 ground is like hitting with tactical nukes. But as it is now, 3 days of bombing and he can take all of southern England with 1 para trooper. Sorry. I mean I understand its a game and not a simulation and all, but Jesus!

So any hope of toning this down? Not going to play "house rules" in this game. If its broke, Im not even going to bother playing it. Lived for years and years in WitP with house rule after house rule to try to make a playable game out of it. Not going that route again.

< Message edited by witpaemail -- 7/31/2017 6:17:04 AM >

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RE: Any hope? - 7/31/2017 3:32:06 PM

KorutZelva

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Even with uncontested skies, you'd think the Uk army would wait for the german barge to hit the beach before dissolving. :0)

Can't really change it that drasticly because the SC games balance accounts on air power working like that.

Operation Europe on the SNES had the opposite problem, basically getting it by air never made an unit sustain any damages except a handful of soldier, its purpose was to raise an army stress level to make it more vulnerable to land units. Back then I was pissed I couldn't get a single tank casualty ever.

There's probably a sweet spot between these two takes on airpower...

< Message edited by KorutZelva -- 7/31/2017 4:29:24 PM >

(in reply to witpaemail)

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RE: Any hope? - 7/31/2017 4:24:26 PM

BillRunacre

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Hi witpaemail

Thanks for the feedback.

We did make a change in v1.04 to enhance the protection from the air that units occupying resources can receive*, and there is a change to bomber effectiveness due to be tested in a beta patch shortly. The aim of that change will be to reduce the casualty inflicting ability of air units at ground attack levels 2 and above, so the intention is for it to aim towards where you'd like it to be.

It has also been my experience at levels 2 and above that ground attack has been too damaging, hence the reasoning behind the change that we'll be testing soon.

Bill

* - units located on a resource and defending from an air attack will now have their defensive bonus values improved (from the default) for any applicable Anti-Aircraft upgrade that the resource has received.

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RE: Any hope? - 7/31/2017 7:59:10 PM

witpaemail

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Thanks for the quick response Bill.

One thing that comes to mind is it might be prudent to delay certain advances until something else has been achieved or perhaps a certain date (like building heavy tanks for example).

What I am thinking here is maybe requiring level 2 Advanced aircraft to get ground attack 2, and maybe level 4 or 5 to reach level 3 ground. Or perhaps not allowing level 2 intil 1942 and level 3 until 1944 as examples.

Just a thought.

Michael

(in reply to BillRunacre)

Post #: 4

RE: Any hope? - 7/31/2017 8:28:54 PM

crispy131313

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I probably have posted this somewhere before but this is how I have Tactical/Medium Bombers set up in my files.

No change to base stats.
Ground Weapons research is set to 4 levels.
Attack increments on ground targets increase by 0.5 (default is 1) with each level.
De-entrenchment and demoralization continues to increase at default rates but can now reach 1 additional level.
Research increments reduced slightly after level 1 to slow down advanced research.

Right now in my current game (AAR)I am level 3 for American/British bombers and it is July 1944 and I am invested in level 4 which is a good pace. The bombers are effective but not overwhelming and certainly do not seem to destroy entire units in most cases. Some very experienced German Tactical Bombers quickly routed Greek HQ's though, but that is fine.

At the highest level the bombers effectively never do more damage then level 2 bombers in the default campaign, but can do more demoralization at the highest levels then the default.

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RE: Any hope? - 7/31/2017 9:28:50 PM

kcole4001

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I played one game where I had to chase down the French all over N. Africa, eventually Spain joined the Axis after France fell.

Consequences: I couldn't get to attacking England until late Spring 1941.
I had level 2 ground attack and advanced aircraft level 1, but England had all his units upgraded to level 2 anti-air.

Absolutely not doable!

I played it out for a while to evaluate, eventually I did kill one corps, but the cost to my air units was staggering!
Next turn I could not possibly have attacked again, had to reinforce, and there goes all my hard earned experience.

I could only foresee it getting worse and even more costly.

(in reply to crispy131313)

Post #: 6

RE: Any hope? - 8/2/2017 1:04:08 PM

Hairog

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

Hi witpaemail

Thanks for the feedback.

We did make a change in v1.04 to enhance the protection from the air that units occupying resources can receive*, and there is a change to bomber effectiveness due to be tested in a beta patch shortly. The aim of that change will be to reduce the casualty inflicting ability of air units at ground attack levels 2 and above, so the intention is for it to aim towards where you'd like it to be.

It has also been my experience at levels 2 and above that ground attack has been too damaging, hence the reasoning behind the change that we'll be testing soon.

Bill

* - units located on a resource and defending from an air attack will now have their defensive bonus values improved (from the default) for any applicable Anti-Aircraft upgrade that the resource has received.

In our games Bill you may recall me complaining that the Allied Tac had no chance of damaging an entrenched German unit. I had to waste 3 air units, sometimes taking over 50% casualties to bring down the entrenchment level to where I could effectively attack. This was in 1944 and I believe they were all level 3 flying from Britain. As I recall there were some AA units floating around as well.

On a tactical level, when the Allies did have total air superiority they did in fact decimate Axis units who were caught in the open during the day. However this was on a brigade level at most.

As has been my experience in this game and historically, fully entrenched and fortified units were pretty hard to hit from the air. Example the Battle of Monte Cassino. Example: Battle of the Bulge after the weather cleared on Dec. 23rd.

I suggest that destruction by air power models the destruction of a unit's ability to maneuver and be supplied more than actual casualties. The unit's personnel and equipment are not destroyed just rendered useless due to lack of supply and loss of command and control etc. If this is the case then possibly it should be highlighted more prominently in the manual etc.

Having a large unit of division or corps size be destroyed due to actual casualties caused by air power along would be highly unrealistic. Having a large unit be rendered ineffective and not able to maneuver by air power alone would be more accurate.

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RE: Any hope? - 8/2/2017 2:17:17 PM

BillRunacre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog

I suggest that destruction by air power models the destruction of a unit's ability to maneuver and be supplied more than actual casualties. The unit's personnel and equipment are not destroyed just rendered useless due to lack of supply and loss of command and control etc. If this is the case then possibly it should be highlighted more prominently in the manual etc.

Having a large unit of division or corps size be destroyed due to actual casualties caused by air power along would be highly unrealistic. Having a large unit be rendered ineffective and not able to maneuver by air power alone would be more accurate.

You're right, that is exactly what unit destruction means, and it means the same for land units destroyed when in good supply.

It's no different for units under severe attack from enemy land units. As land units with a line of retreat and ability to get away will generally try to retreat, unless their morale has totally collapsed.

That is why when units are destroyed in the game they can be bought back for a cheaper rate, because there will be survivors, wounded returning to the rank and cadres in the rear.

So most unit destruction, not just that caused by air attacks, should be seen as the reduction in a unit's combat effectiveness to the level where it requires a significant amount of reorganization and reinforcement to make it a valid unit again.

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Post #: 8

RE: Any hope? - 8/10/2017 4:35:20 PM

Goodmongo

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I'm still trying to test out 1.09 changes to bombers. I'm not sure I support making them weaker and here's why.

1) Axis MPP's have been reduced so there is already a much larger decision to make on units vs. research. And if units do you go for ground or air? We no longer can easily have both.
2) Fighters do heavy damage to unescorted bombers. So combining this with #1 you have to sink a significant percentage of your MPP to do an air war which will greatly hurt the Axis in Russia.
3) With the range changes and HQ changes the Axis fighters are left to either escort your bombers or to help protect your MPP sources from allied strat bombing. They can't be in range to do both.

So yes I might knock off a few units but if I went that route with the Axis I would suffer in many other areas. To me using your bombers against UK troops in England is a losing strategy unless you pull off SeaLion.

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RE: Any hope? - 8/10/2017 4:48:52 PM

dave123

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I have found that un-upgraded AA units are useless, pretty much never getting a hit. How about a buff there?

I remember a game way back, don't recall the name, but air could not destroy land units, only knock them down to 1. I think it was a good idea.

I nearly lost a game recently when the Germans hit England with nothing but air and decimated my navy and land units. by the time his first units landed, everything within range of his air was just gone. This included an AA unit that never got a defensive hit. My fighters were toasted, and I finally gave up fixing them, just too expensive. One caveat, I did not have a brit HQ in the neighborhood.

Just does not seem right.

(in reply to Goodmongo)

Post #: 10