Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Routing a unit did a surprising low amount of damage, at least to german. I do not understand why it is not realistic at all. At least a lot of heavy equipment should be left behind.

It is possible to give good damage to a german unit, but you have to prepare for the target unit a retreat path with multiple enemy zone of control. The more enemy units close to the retreat path, the better for doing damage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

Before we get all pro-Soviet on the next round of patches, geez...after Sept 41, WTH! You can get big odds on Russkies and lose more Germans than Russisans. So the big loss thing is turned off and the Soviet fan boys want more.

Yep. Now I have played the original Russian winter rules vs my opponent and I forgot how awful it is. Just wrecked the German army. Although I took Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov in 41, I lost Rostov and Moscow in the winter and doubt I will get either back in 42. So much for even doing what the Germans did in 42 ALTHOUGH I DID BETTER THAN THEY DID IN 41.

Soviets don't need a bunch of fixes imo.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Retreat path wouldn't have made much difference if any at all. I have watched German units retreat multiple ZOC and take no extra loses to very minimal as they retreated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
As Germany you basically just go balls to the wall forward while protecting your flanks and it isn't much if anything that the Russians can do about it to drive the Germans back. Attack a Germany unit with Soviets (especially prior to Sept 41) take massive Soviets loses with very minimal German loses if any. (this gets a check mark as VERY PRO German). The best defense is a good Offense but that is extremely difficult to mimic in the opening stages of this game as a Soviet player. Correct me if I'm wrong but historically Germans took some serious casualties when the Soviets counterattacked or defended in the early stages of the war if I remember correctly. (i.e. Like the Brest defenders inflicted over 1,000 casualties but you will be lucky to get 100-200 in the game).

quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Retreat path wouldn't have made much difference if any at all. I have watched German units retreat multiple ZOC and take no extra loses to very minimal as they retreated.

That is a general problem. Infantry units especially can not really be decisively fixed and destroyed in an engagement, even by mechanized units.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
As Germany you basically just go balls to the wall forward while protecting your flanks and it isn't much if anything that the Russians can do about it to drive the Germans back. Attack a Germany unit with Soviets (especially prior to Sept 41) take massive Soviets loses with very minimal German loses if any. (this gets a check mark as VERY PRO German). The best defense is a good Offense but that is extremely difficult to mimic in the opening stages of this game as a Soviet player. Correct me if I'm wrong but historically Germans took some serious casualties when the Soviets counterattacked or defended in the early stages of the war if I remember correctly. (i.e. Like the Brest defenders inflicted over 1,000 casualties but you will be lucky to get 100-200 in the game).

casualties or dead? Big difference.

In general isolated units lose too much CV too quickly. A week or 2 of isolation shouldn't lead to the kind of steep decline one sees unless decisively engaged, but the combat model doesn't really allow decisive engagements, so weak (in casualty terms) attacks bleed out too much supply which leads to quick CV collapse.

This contributes to the snowball effect in 41/42 and 44/45.







This is not what a multi divisional engagement where both sides are trying to fight it out should look like. This leads to snowballing encirclements, snowballing moral effects and snowballing territorial gains.

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Unfortunately these numbers were virtual, hiding true losses behind a simple equation calculating losses as number of men in destroyed elements and half the men in damaged elements, while in fact no men were lost from damaged elements and only some from destroyed elements. Currently the game is displaying actual immediate losses, so they correspond with losses screen, but because of that they are much lower. Think of them as not showing lightly wounded soldiers, which would return to duty in less than 7 days. I measure losses (in terms of loss screen numbers) for each version using the same set of tests, and actually the game is much more bloody now than before, and the ratio is much more realistic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
The low Axis combat losses in early war can be balanced by a tac bos campaign. Most attacks leave the defender with max det level in a hex without fortifications and the chance to do two bombing runs again (circa 120 extra dead + 15 artillery)
This being said, please don't reduce the tac bos. They are the ONLY way to make Germans bleed during early war, blizzard aside.

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Yes, every hex moved through ZOC or river applies another round of post combat losses. I will have to check routs, technically they may result in less rounds than retreat through multiple ZOC (because there is nowhere to move and unit is teleported to safe hex immediately).

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

I'm talking about the light wounded that arent factored into the combat system at all really. This issue has been discussed to death in the past, and due to the limitations of the combat system in the current WiTE can't be fixed is what I was told as any attempts to get realistic losses basically made the German army disintegrate over the long game to fast compared to historical.

So the best thing is to get it close enough that game numbers work to give a decent game to both players.

Hopefully in the work on 2.0 WITE they get losses and army numbers closer to correct as the war goes on. Its well documented and even reasonably argued by historians that the Germans lost the war in the winter of 1941 and Stalingrad didn't really even matter....as the attrition rate of German troops and equipment was to high to be able to maintain. The German army never recovered from the first 6 months in Russia due to losses sustained, you will never get that effect in WITE 1.0+ patched.

I think the game has come a long way, but still has alot of issues as well when trying to truly replicate the campaign and conditions both armies fought under.