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Does CMANO model soft kills?

 
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Does CMANO model soft kills? - 8/8/2017 7:29:22 PM   
LoBlo

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 9/12/2014
Status: offline 		Does Command model soft kills on targets? Sometimes if an enemy surface platform or land base is damaged its hard to know if the game will still utilize it as capable. For example, hitting a surface platform with a few missiles, but not sinking it. Will the game model it as incapacitated?

lb
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RE: Does CMANO model soft kills? - 8/8/2017 7:53:05 PM   
Tailhook

 

Posts: 293
Joined: 1/18/2015
Status: offline 		Aircraft and ships have a return to base damage threshhold from their general health. As for individual subsystems, yes they can all be damaged. As to whether or not the AI will determine it's still combat effective (you, the player can always make that call), I don't think so barring it crossing the damage threshhold. I actually sank the Liaoning in the Chains of War DLC because a cruise missile hit an escort, slowing it (although leaving it healthy enough to fight), which allowed one of my SSPs to get into position for a shot on the Carrier.

(in reply to LoBlo)
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RE: Does CMANO model soft kills? - 8/8/2017 9:59:14 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Yes, the player is under control of their units. As for the AI, the scenario designer can set withdrawal criteria under side doctrine or the doctrine specific to the unit. I think lua could be used to fine tune the damage level criteria. Another technique is to reward points for damaging a capital ship rather than destroying it. Keeps the player controlling navies like the USN on their toes. That being said, I don't think there is a rule of thumb on the damage percent that should force a ship to withdraw or trigger rewarded points.

Kevin

(in reply to Tailhook)
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RE: Does CMANO model soft kills? - 8/8/2017 11:59:48 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		There are multiple answers to the question...

Using withdrawal settings can be used to disengage. These can be manipulated through LUA and events as needed for AI.

http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=4215 Described somewhat there. The most important part isn't just % damage for what you are asking. Its weapon state and mission.

Weapons can be damaged and knocked out in any engagement, and the ship can be manually withdrawn or pressed on. Part of this is described in the manual on page 23. For the AI to decide, the above settings are usually used.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 8/9/2017 12:29:04 AM >

(in reply to kevinkins)
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RE: Does CMANO model soft kills? - 8/9/2017 1:18:44 AM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		Scenario designer has a lot of latitude in how the game unfolds especially for 'soft' kills, in addition to the comments above:

-By using a counter a certain nations units can be triggered to change sides and go home.
-by using the Damage unit trigger you can set a threshold and have that unit change sides and do something else
-by a 'unit enters area' trigger which is relative to the ship in question, having something (ship or aircraft) approach might trigger a different behaviour.

These are just examples and there are many other options.

B

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RE: Does CMANO model soft kills? - 8/9/2017 11:04:51 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		That's not a "soft" kill. That's a "mission" kill. Soft kill would be using an EMP, decoys, DEW or electronic warfare system to disrupt or degrade a system's electronics. Some of that kind of technology is modeled. Decoys are included, obviously. Defensive jamming is taken into account during weapons adjudication. EMP is taken into account. I don't think there's laser dazzlers and things like that in there, although I might be wrong.

A "mission" kill is modeled for aircraft and surface ships. It's also modeled for many ground systems consisting of multiple aimpoints (e.g. SAM sites) where there's a critical point of failure like a tracking radar. It's not modeled so well for things like tanks or artillery pieces. In those cases they talk about "mobility" kills and "firepower" kills. I'm not sure it's really clear what a kill means in those cases. I suspect it's not a "mobility" kill though because you don't see the battlefield littered with immobilized tanks that continue to fire. That would suggest it's at least a firepower kill.




quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBlo

Does Command model soft kills on targets? Sometimes if an enemy surface platform or land base is damaged its hard to know if the game will still utilize it as capable. For example, hitting a surface platform with a few missiles, but not sinking it. Will the game model it as incapacitated?

lb



< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 8/9/2017 11:13:52 PM >

(in reply to LoBlo)
Post #: 6
RE: Does CMANO model soft kills? - 8/10/2017 1:13:40 AM   
kevinkins


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		I did not think the original post included electronic "soft kills". So you bring up a good point moving forward. How do designers score a successful cyber attack when the cyber attack is highly abstracted but in reality could be critical to the outcome of the next war? Players can not jump into lua on the fly and via code disable their enemy unless they want to circumvent the the designers's scenario completely.

A very interesting topic. Important for those who enjoy Command's ability to model combat a year or two out.

Kevin


(in reply to SeaQueen)
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RE: Does CMANO model soft kills? - 8/10/2017 1:23:38 AM   
LoBlo

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 9/12/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

That's not a "soft" kill. That's a "mission" kill. Soft kill would be using an EMP, decoys, DEW or electronic warfare system to disrupt or degrade a system's electronics. Some of that kind of technology is modeled. Decoys are included, obviously. Defensive jamming is taken into account during weapons adjudication. EMP is taken into account. I don't think there's laser dazzlers and things like that in there, although I might be wrong.

A "mission" kill is modeled for aircraft and surface ships. It's also modeled for many ground systems consisting of multiple aimpoints (e.g. SAM sites) where there's a critical point of failure like a tracking radar. It's not modeled so well for things like tanks or artillery pieces. In those cases they talk about "mobility" kills and "firepower" kills. I'm not sure it's really clear what a kill means in those cases. I suspect it's not a "mobility" kill though because you don't see the battlefield littered with immobilized tanks that continue to fire. That would suggest it's at least a firepower kill.



Your right. I meant mission kill.

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 8
RE: Does CMANO model soft kills? - 8/10/2017 2:04:46 AM   
Dysta


Posts: 1909
Joined: 8/8/2015
Status: offline 		In missile terminology, soft-kill is to render the missile's seeker/guidance ineffective so it cannot accurately hit the target.

But in general term of soft-kill, is to render the unit/asset cannot control/operate without inflicting physical damage, jamming is not a proper term of soft-kill because the target is still operating, just being blinded from effectively control the unit. Aside from EMP, remote kill switch is also a type of soft-kill.

_____________________________


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RE: Does CMANO model soft kills? - 8/10/2017 9:24:50 AM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline
quote:

How do designers score a successful cyber attack


I think this can be done:

-Set up a friendly side (not allied)
-When/if conditions are right for a cyber strike on a ship
-Transfer that ship to the 2nd side
-Turn off all its radars
-if playing CoW on then set it to no-coms
-Assign it to a mission that takes out of the danger zone

Have a random event that fixes everything or some things (some electronic bits disabled) and returns the ship.

The real question is - can a ship be cyber attacked that effectively? In theory their systems are redundant. Not sure

B

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 10
RE: Does CMANO model soft kills? - 8/10/2017 12:34:25 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		That would work. I would give the player a creative message to explain what just happened. Likewise if the ship regains control.

I am not sure about the chance of this happening either. No only are the systems redundant, I think they are local/self sufficient.
Taking a ship out of the fleet's network does not render it completely useless.

Kevin

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 11
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