Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)??????

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Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 11:51:06 AM

Callistrid

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I've start plaing two games, both with soviet side. My lastest experience was lost with 1.7.-1.8. patch, so I'm new with 1.11.
However, after 20+ early years game, mostly with soviet side (between 2011-2015), I'm really supriesd about the changes, what favor the germans. There was a time, when motorized units, with air supply could run fast (tricky sapper222), but now, I feel all motorized and panzer units never run out of supply. And Leningrad + Moscow could be reached faster then ever.

Or something I missed. For exaple the +1 soviet bonus is recomended due balance issue. Or I'm a really bad player?

Post #: 1

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 12:12:41 PM

timmyab

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
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1941 is very tough for the Soviet side now. The panzer divisions in particular are overpowered with low losses and high mobility. If The Soviet player makes it to 1944 the boot's on the other foot, but still those panzer division are ahistorical monsters. German armor max MPs should be reduced as the war oes on (imo) to reflect their dire fuel situation.

Playing this game you wonder how the Germans managed to lose, after reading Stahel you know why.

(in reply to Callistrid)

Post #: 2

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 12:16:17 PM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
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Next patch nerfs German logistical capability.

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Post #: 3

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 12:24:35 PM

Callistrid

Posts: 669
Joined: 8/11/2011
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I'm graduated in history, so I'm familiar with WW2. That is why I liked WITE, because it was one of the most accurate game I ever saw.
But right now I'm fully avared with the new patch.
I modestly ask the communitys oponion about the best version, and settings, what give a real balance to enjoy the game, and not flustate me, and force me to do 2-3 hour/turn dealing with anoying micromanagement, insted of maximum one hour.

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Post #: 4

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 1:17:51 PM

Commanderski

Posts: 927
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: New Hampshire
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One thing that is helping the Axis advance in '41 is that there is no weather/mud until October.

There wasn't a drought in '41 and the Germans were held up in quite a few places due to Summer rains. Random weather should be brought back and that will even things out a bit.

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Post #: 5

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 1:30:29 PM

Callistrid

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+1 bonus is still tough?

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Post #: 6

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 1:36:30 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

I've start plaing two games, both with soviet side. My lastest experience was lost with 1.7.-1.8. patch, so I'm new with 1.11.
However, after 20+ early years game, mostly with soviet side (between 2011-2015), I'm really supriesd about the changes, what favor the germans. There was a time, when motorized units, with air supply could run fast (tricky sapper222), but now, I feel all motorized and panzer units never run out of supply. And Leningrad + Moscow could be reached faster then ever.

Or something I missed. For exaple the +1 soviet bonus is recomended due balance issue. Or I'm a really bad player?

You are not mistaken Callistrid. German units never really run out of fuel. On top of that in all my Soviet games I am defending Moscow against all of the German PZ's and Moto units except for maybe 4 left in the south. In the current patch Russia "MUST" have the +1 Soviet Attack & random weather. I thought I would never say that but this patch is killer on the Soviets (I'm a pro sided German minded player saying that by the way) The only way I have survived was to take the core of Soviet good units with "high" experience and Morale and put them in front of the the PZ ball. Once they moved away from Leningrad I shifted them to Moscow by train. Using that cadre of experienced units I have been able to hold everyone at bay from Leningrad & Moscow (although It looks like I may loose Moscow in a game or two I'm doing right now :( )

The amount of loses the Soviets take attacking prior to Sept is out of whack (IMHO), if you attack a brigade/regiment it gets even further out of whack as I call it SupercalifragilisticexpialidociousF'ingSupidResults. See picture below even though probably most of the deaths were by planes and experience of the German unit. I do have a great deal more of these types of pictures if interested but this one gives a good idea what happens to the soviets when attacking a brigade/regiment size unit. you actually suffer more causalties attacking those little boys than you do when attacking a division, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL........actually it isnt a laughing matter. Thus next time I'm playing the German player I'm just going to break down my Infantry Divisions into Regiments in areas I don't care about and take more inf Divisions with the Panzer ball. Thus making the Panzer ball even deadlier with Infantry support. This is a sprial death throw if the damage continues to be so low against regiments/brigades. Or am I missing something here? Try it out, you will see.

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Post #: 7

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 1:47:56 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Not to mention, what Chaos45 has brought up many times, is the digging factor of the Soviets. Soviet Sappers/RR Eng don't help with digging unless attached directly to the unit. Well that suxs since you can't do that as Soviets until you get Corps. The Germans can do it now with divisions. I have had to put down Fortified areas with RR engs/Sappers to get an entrenchment level up quickly. It isn't cheap either (see my photo of one built with RR/Eng and the construction value. I have also had to used high digging entrenchment divisions to prepare Forts turns in advance in key areas using Inf divisions instead of fighting.

Needless to say I have had to get crafty on a great many things playing the Soviets during this patch.

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RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 1:56:53 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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I had to cheese up the Finish border to get even more units to put in front of the PZ's. Thus holding Leningrad at all cost frees up more units for the PZ ball grinder. Those extra units make a difference.

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Post #: 9

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 2:07:57 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Next patch nerfs German logistical capability.

"When" is the next patch? Will it have an effect on current games in progress too? (I would assume it would)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 8/19/2017 2:09:04 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 7:41:48 PM

Stvitus2002

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Joined: 1/24/2005
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quote:

have the +1 Soviet Attack & random weather

I used +1 soviet defense. I don't think i would have held Leningrad without it.
Be aware that under the current beta, there is no Soviet sapper production from 10/41 to 10/42 due
a typo error in the database. I have given up my current game as a result.

WO 0/0

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 11

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/19/2017 8:59:36 PM

TheLysander

Posts: 56
Joined: 2/27/2017
From: England
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One thing i dont understand is that in my current game as germans in August 43, if i attack i guarantee you i will lose more than 1000 men, unless i attack with SS. However if the enemy attack me the losses are equal. Why is it that i take so many more losses than the enemy?. Its literally Hardlucks picture but the other way around and i dont win the engagement. (this is ignoring the outcome, i lose same amounts on victory or defeat).

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Post #: 12

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/20/2017 3:15:50 AM

mktours

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I think the biggest problem with the current patches is that the current patch team is doing something beyond their capacity. The original WiTe developer took 5 years to develop the WITE 1.0 before releasing, after that there were 5 years, in which some big changes were made, but the main mechanism remains mostly intact. Form 1.08, 2-3 amateurs took over the rein and they were enthusiastic to Mod the game in their way. These patches are indeed free Mods, they are no longer the original GG's WITE, from the combat engine to the whole logistic system, and the big new invention of brand new HQ build up rules, everything has been changed freely and hugely. If 2-3 people could develop a huge game in their part time very successfully, why should GG took 5 years to develop the original WITE 1.0? and now they are taking another 5 years to develop WITE 2.0? Why do they not make them out in 1-2 months? They are professional game developer and they sale products.
It is nothing wrong for the volunteers to freely make big changes to the big game if they like, Mods often make a game more interesting for many people. What is wrong here is binding the Mods with the patching process and don't tell the truth to the gamers, and force the gamers to do the test for them. It is like buying a car form a Brand, and put it into the hands of one amateur, who is a very good engineer, and he makes big changes with passion to the car, make it looks more beautiful and have many new functions. The question is, is this car safe? It lacks quality checking and control, which a factory offers. A product without quality checking is going to have unintended errors.

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Post #: 13

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/20/2017 7:41:40 AM

morvael

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This is true, in that we changed the original game to an extent, because we are entitled to have a vision how things should work, just like the original developers. It is true the patches are not tested properly, because we have no dedicated tester team, so players are our only testers. Hence it's always coming first as public beta. But please remember the game had hundreds of bugs (some were really huge) when the original developers left it in our hands. I don't know if it was possible to focus only on fixing these (which itself is a balance changing process) and not make any extra changes to the original game. I think it's a win-win situation for all parties. Players may continue playing original game (see patch archive thread - 1.07.10/11) or one of our versions with improvements. If the original team would be dissatisfied with our product they would certainly take it away from us. And the game would be dead for the last 4 years while they developed two new games.

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Post #: 14

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/20/2017 10:27:54 AM

tyronec

Posts: 4940
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I have to disagree with what mktours writes.
While it is a huge job to develop the game it is not the same thing to implement a modification so not at all unreasonable that new patches can be worked out in a few weeks or months. It would be nice if full game testing could be done before each and every patch is implemented but not realistic for a free service.
It is not necessarily the case that 'professional' game developers would do a better job than 'amateurs'. What matters is experience, skill, intelligence, commitment, ...
While I do agree that 1.11 is biased towards Axis and probably a mistake has been made with the recent patch am more than happy to be tolerant as the problem is being addressed and we can hope that balance will be restored soon. In the meantime am happy to just play another game or just enjoy the game as it is, there is always the option to play on different settings or restore to an earlier version. Personally would rather see efforts being made to improve the game even if they are not always perfect.

< Message edited by tyronec -- 8/20/2017 12:03:58 PM >

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The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.

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Post #: 15

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/20/2017 10:58:38 AM

Stelteck

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The game is still really fun, we only have to not be to much focused on historical results.

When playing soviet, acknowledge that you will probably loose moscow, leningrad, stalino and tons of big cities, except if you are outrageously good at the game. It is not the end of the world.
Even It is not historica, do not bother too much and embrace the uchronie.

The game will still be very fun and, if you did not loose too much troops in repetitive massive encerclement (usually, consequences of trying to defend at all cost historical objectives), the soviet will still be able to built a very strong army and give german hell in later years. You will still have massive interesting battles and a true total war feeling.

Maybe the main problem with current balance of the game is that victory points in most scenario (such as bitter end) are so much on historical cities, such moscow, leningrad, which are not easy to defend at all. But there is no victory point for gorky, kazhan, grozny, some cities in the north and others cities of the Volga, that the german have a chance to take but are not rewarded for taking it.
And it is too easy to get victory points because easy cities are too much rewarded.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 8/20/2017 11:10:02 AM >

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RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/20/2017 2:31:25 PM

galex

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Joined: 8/26/2008
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Callistrid.From the observation of our game, I think you are a very experienced player and did a great job deploy Sov defence. I Learned a lot from you. Lots admire.

I think the soviet just almost impossible to defend lenninggrad and moscow under current patch unless german player make big mistakes. That may be due to I lack experience as Sovit side and I hope someone can find an effective strategy to defend in 1941.

< Message edited by galex -- 8/20/2017 2:35:50 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/20/2017 2:50:21 PM

mktours

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

I have to disagree with what mktours writes.
While it is a huge job to develop the game it is not the same thing to implement a modification so not at all unreasonable that new patches can be worked out in a few weeks or months. It would be nice if full game testing could be done before each and every patch is implemented but not realistic for a free service.
It is not necessarily the case that 'professional' game developers would do a better job than 'amateurs'. What matters is experience, skill, intelligence, commitment, ...
While I do agree that 1.11 is biased towards Axis and probably a mistake has been made with the recent patch am more than happy to be tolerant as the problem is being addressed and we can hope that balance will be restored soon. In the meantime am happy to just play another game or just enjoy the game as it is, there is always the option to play on different settings or restore to an earlier version. Personally would rather see efforts being made to improve the game even if they are not always perfect.

It is fine for anybody to disagree with me. But what you said in your post has nothing against what I had said or meant. Did I said "a patch can't be done in 1 week"? I didn't. It depends on how big a patch is, If the patch is changing the name of an army, it could be done in seconds, If the patch is about changing the combat engine, which is the core of the game, it may require 1 month of full time in coding.
"It is not necessarily the case that 'professional' game developers would do a better job than 'amateurs'. What matters is experience, skill, intelligence, commitment, ..." this statement is true because you use "It is not necessarily the case", few things, if any, is absolute in the world. Did I rule out genius amateurs Vs fool professionals? I didn't, and Why should I ? So it is strange for you to come out and tell me that there are exceptions. It is fine if you said Morvael is genius while the original developer is fool. That is your opinion, and I would respect it. What I meant is that generally a professional should have more knowledge and skill than amateur, since they got more experience and more training. if you are disagree with me, you should argue against what I meant.

(in reply to tyronec)

Post #: 18

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/20/2017 3:26:28 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: galex

Callistrid.From the observation of our game, I think you are a very experienced player and did a great job deploy Sov defence. I Learned a lot from you. Lots admire.

I think the soviet just almost impossible to defend lenninggrad and moscow under current patch unless german player make big mistakes. That may be due to I lack experience as Sovit side and I hope someone can find an effective strategy to defend in 1941.

Callistrid is experienced for sure. He has some good AAR's he did too. Take a look at them because they have a great deal of good insight :)

So far I still have Leningrad in in all my current games with the closet German 10 hexes away turn 11 (no armor in vicinity so I'm not 100% certain but I think it is too late for the Germans to take). All other games are turn 13+ and all German opponents moved away from Leningrad towards Moscow.

I have two games with Moscow threatened I feel 90% confident I can hold Moscow in the first game against all the PZ's and MOTO's the Germans have on the map except for 4-5 that is in the south. The last game it is too early to tell but Im feeling 50/50 confident(if such a thing). So out of the 15 games I have held Leningrad/Moscow 100% 13 of those games. I have to wait and see for these last two since both are "INTENSE" at the moment.

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RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/22/2017 10:58:54 AM

tyronec

Posts: 4940
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From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
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Are you saying you expect to win as Soviet on the default settings ?
If so I would like to challenge you to a game, and would hope to be able to take both Leningrad and Moscow in '41.

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The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.

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Post #: 20

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/22/2017 3:00:51 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Are you saying you expect to win as Soviet on the default settings ?
If so I would like to challenge you to a game, and would hope to be able to take both Leningrad and Moscow in '41.

If you are asking me, I would love to but current games and my workload will not accommodate another game. But to give you comfort I'm sure you would take both Leningrad and Moscow easily ;-P See, you win easily! Game over.

The only thing I am saying that I can go on is that I have 15 games using my Strat that I started posting on and have not lost Leningrad and Moscow baring the two still in progress games. If you are a better player than the other 15 players, great love to play you. But now that I have posted on my opening strat it would be easy to compromise what I do. Not to mention set the Germans up to rush one or the other or both Leningrad/Moscow sacrificing the other fronts to gain the prize of a capture. I prefer to play after I develop a new strat and I will do that in WiTE 2.0. I sincerely do appreciate the offer but after these current games finish I will be moving on to WiTE 2, we can meet up there & more than happy to play you :)

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RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/22/2017 4:00:39 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

But now that I have posted on my opening strat it would be easy to compromise what I do.

I am not so sure given the planned patch .. the Panzerball to Moscow strategy is a specific problem the powers to be are nerfing
So ... a "Pskov wall" and the planned new patch changing German supply might be very humbling to the Huns ...

BTW) Taking Leningrad and Moscow against a Russian player willing to stick it out is not the end all .. and I believe Hardluckyetagain would be such a player ..

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RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/22/2017 5:03:40 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

But now that I have posted on my opening strat it would be easy to compromise what I do.

I am not so sure given the planned patch .. the Panzerball to Moscow strategy is a specific problem the powers to be are nerfing
So ... a "Pskov wall" and the planned new patch changing German supply might be very humbling to the Huns ...

BTW) Taking Leningrad and Moscow against a Russian player willing to stick it out is not the end all .. and I believe Hardluckyetagain would be such a player ..

Thank you but I really don't consider myself that good of a player. Others on this forum are far better than me. I do believe holding Leningrad as a Soviet to be of the Highest priority above Moscow. I will let Moscow fall before I let Leningrad fall if at all possible. Not having the Finns for the coming winter really does hurt the Germans a great deal.

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RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/22/2017 5:08:57 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Not having the Finns for the coming winter really does hurt the Germans a great deal.

Not just that. You can have shorter lines - in effect 18th army can be used elsewhere rather than at Leningrad. And shorter supply lines, the rail supply out of Finland through the isthmus is in effect another FBD just when your northern most troops need it. The list could go on...

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Post #: 24

RE: Soviet disadvantages (v1.11. patch)?????? - 8/22/2017 5:12:47 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Not having the Finns for the coming winter really does hurt the Germans a great deal.

Not just that. You can have shorter lines - in effect 18th army can be used elsewhere rather than at Leningrad. And shorter supply lines, the rail supply out of Finland through the isthmus is in effect another FBD just when your northern most troops need it. The list could go on...