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RE: Revisionist History-OT - 4/10/2016 7:42:18 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

So I think this movement is developing apace in American academia.

So we see this burgeoning movement to do away with statues honoring Confederate soldiers and leaders. More than half the population are still scratching its head over this. But the movement is gaining strength in the general population and it dominates political thought, education and the media on the left. So in Georgia today there is a movement to blast the Confederate memorial off the side of Stone Mountain. And if you disagree with that, you are deemed racist.

warspite1

Scary. Where does it end? Well presumably it ends with no monuments to anyone in the past? If you remove monuments to the southern soldiers, generals etc, what about the north and (south) and the wars against the native Indians?

Nelson's column, any memorial to Napoleon, any King and Queen of just about every country, Churchill - any Prime Minister - Truman - any President - all have to be removed - streets, buildings, towns have to be re-named! Also, where is the line drawn and who draws it? So an explorer who helped open up Africa - is he feted for that work or denounced for any involvement with the subsequent colonisation of the continent?

Humans are humans, none of us are whiter than white and none of us (well with some exceptions perhaps) are all bad. If only good men and woman (by the standards of today) can be remembered, that doesn't leave too many memorials does it?

quote:

The people who espouse this viewpoint are militant and highly opinionated.

Yep I said scary and that is a good word here - but so too are the words simple, lazy and ignorant. It's like taking the easy way out. e.g. I don't want to have to deal with analysing the actions of an historical character and deal with the complexities of looking at their actions in the context of the time.... Nah, that's too much like hard work. I'll just denounce him as racist instead and win brownie points with the militant right-on herd. A very very troubling development.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/10/2016 7:50:08 AM >

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Post #: 151

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 4/10/2016 7:52:59 AM

Canoerebel

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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Yes, where does it stop?

I'd like to believe that Alfred's analysis is on target - that those with what seem to be whacky theories will be proven wrong and will eventually be dismissed. That would be justice.

But from what I've seen in academia (and politics), strange notions can gain hold and become dominant, and those who view things differently are scoffed at, denied tenure, denied admission to graduate schools, and lampooned as idiots. I've seen it happen many times. And I think that's exactly what's happening with the developing views about what constitutes racism.

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Post #: 152

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 4/10/2016 7:59:44 AM

Canoerebel

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Another point I made to my California historian/writer friend is that it can be helpful to look at how the "enemy" viewed the conduct in question as an aid to determining if it was "evil."

Thus, in the case of the American Civil War, after the war a majority of northerners (all but the most fervid abolitionists and militant "punishers of the rebellion") looked upon their former enemy with high esteem. Most northerners thought very highly of Robert E. Lee. There was no notion that he was an evil and racist man. Similarly, many northerners held antiquated (ignorant) opinions of slaves and free blacks, so that the idea of slavery didn't disturb them.

Then look at Hitler in 1945. His enemies looked at what he had done with horror. There was no question that he had perpetrated many evils.

It isn't necessary to measure them by 2016 standards, and to do so will usually perpetrate an injustice and an inaccuracy.

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Post #: 153

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 4/10/2016 8:00:23 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes, where does it stop?

I'd like to believe that Alfred's analysis is on target - that those with what seem to be whacky theories will be proven wrong and will eventually be dismissed. That would be justice.

But from what I've seen in academia (and politics), strange notions can gain hold and become dominant, and those who view things differently are scoffed at, denied tenure, denied admission to graduate schools, and lampooned as idiots. I've seen it happen many times. And I think that's exactly what's happening with the developing views about what constitutes racism.

warspite1

Maybe the argument would be "lets move away from monuments to wars and conquests and move onto other things".

That would be interesting. In the last few years alone I can think of more than one person (politicians and TV personalities) who were honoured and feted and had things named after them for their charity work. Only problem was these people were later exposed as kiddie fiddlers and/or sex-fiends!

Well at least in this brave new world the unemployment problem is being solved - we will forever be erecting and tearing down and erecting and tearing down monuments and place names and statues as secrets are exposed and times and values change

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/10/2016 8:10:15 AM >

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Post #: 154

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 4/10/2016 2:57:15 PM

desicat

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quote:

Maybe the argument would be "lets move away from monuments to wars and conquests and move onto other things".

This is an interesting note. Most monuments I have seen were dedications to loss and sacrifice to achieve victory. Small towns all across the US have Civil War, WWI, and WWII statues and memorials in "remembrance" of the men (and some women) who did not return. The principles of those who left and never returned (in a country like the US that has seen very little outside invasion) should provide lessons for following generations. I do not think I have ever seen a monument in the US that celebrated "conquest", I have been often inspired by the inscriptions I have read on small town memorials.

Several folks in this thread have quoted Sherman, Churchill, and Lee, and none of those quotes glorified war. They were first hand witness to its horror and understood the need to end war quickly and to resist tyranny (yes, even the Southerners thought they were taking a stand on principle). The denizens of today's Ivory Towers owe their freedom of thought to those "brutal" warriors who paved the way for them to exercise their freedom of thought, too bad so many of today's academics fail to understand that civilization and progress is not the natural state of human kind.

quote:

Immanuel Kant, "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch":

"The state of peace among men living side by side is not the natural state; the natural state is one of war. This does not always mean open hostilities, but at least an unceasing threat of war. A state of peace, therefore, must be established, for in order to be secured against hostility it is not sufficient that hostilities simply be not committed; and, unless this security is pledged to each by his neighbor (a thing that can occur only in a civil state), each may treat his neighbor, from whom he demands this security, as an enemy."

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 155

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 4:50:32 AM

warspite1

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And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4814024/Now-want-tear-Nelson-s-Column.html

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 156

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 11:51:41 AM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4814024/Now-want-tear-Nelson-s-Column.html

I am extremely saddened by this whole sad affair... and now Nelson...

Leo "Apollo11"

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(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 157

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 1:31:31 PM

Lecivius

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Nelson supported slavery?

Am I missing something?

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Post #: 158

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 3:26:33 PM

John 3rd

Posts: 17178
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Another point I made to my California historian/writer friend is that it can be helpful to look at how the "enemy" viewed the conduct in question as an aid to determining if it was "evil."

Thus, in the case of the American Civil War, after the war a majority of northerners (all but the most fervid abolitionists and militant "punishers of the rebellion") looked upon their former enemy with high esteem. Most northerners thought very highly of Robert E. Lee. There was no notion that he was an evil and racist man. Similarly, many northerners held antiquated (ignorant) opinions of slaves and free blacks, so that the idea of slavery didn't disturb them.

Then look at Hitler in 1945. His enemies looked at what he had done with horror. There was no question that he had perpetrated many evils.

It isn't necessary to measure them by 2016 standards, and to do so will usually perpetrate an injustice and an inaccuracy.

This movement has truly offended me.

I am a Historian. Many of my colleagues hear the name Robert E. Lee and think evil slave owning Southerner. They do not understand the love and respect that was felt for that man by BOTH sides and how he, personally, probably prevented the Civil War from turning into a Guerilla War. After he lost and surrendered, what did he do? As they say in Game of Thrones, he bent the knee. He pledged his loyalty back to the United States. That act probably saved countless lives because it took the legs out from under any long-term clandestine resistance after the war.

What is happening presently sickens me. This is our HISTORY. History should not be a whitewash. Sure--there was good and evil during the war but, as said above, many of these monuments commemorate the fallen and praise the sacrifice that so many gave for what they believed in.

If I go farther, I will truly get in trouble. This is my .02...

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Post #: 159

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 4:06:07 PM

Canoerebel

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We are going to lose this battle because academia and the media see things differently. They have a strident view that does not tolerate debate or disagreement. Right now, in colleges across America, leading professors are teaching that honoring Confederate soldiers and officers is an act of racism. Does that sound nuts to you? Maybe. But that is holy writ to them. You are their enemy. You are a racist.

Right now, all across America, people are being told that slavery and Nazi Germany were equivalent. They believe that. They hate those who believe differently.

There is no equivalence, but they don't have the time, patience, or inclination to reason this through.

I had a gifted writer make that claim, so I spent hours and days thinking through things. I felt like there wasn't an equivalence but was I necessarily right? I needed to reason it through to figure that out.

That writer - an academian who is now part of the mainstream in collegiate America - said that is was racist - racist! - to claim that you can't judge an 1860 man by 2017 standards.

Can you? I say no.

In 1860, mankind had lived most of its history with slavery an accepted fact of life. That sentiment was in the process of changing and those changes would probably accelerate over time. But there was still a substantial number of people who believed that slavery was the natural order of things and that slaves were chattel property. Some of the men who believed that were bad men. Some of the men who believed that were good men. At least by 1860 standards. But not by 2017 standards.

Why doesn't it make sense to measure 1860 men by 2017 standards? Because the 1860 men didn't have the benefit of the evolution of thought and morality that we've had. We know slavery was an evil and the sooner it was eradicated the better. Too many of them didn't recognize that.

Were they evil? Some were. Some weren't.

How do we know that? By how they were perceived by their enemies. In 1865, most northerners did not view slavery as wrong or the southerner as evil. Both sides mostly respected the other side, during and after the war. If there was a feeling that southerners needed to be punished, that was more for breaking the Union than for practicing slavery.

Compare that to Nazi German in 1945. How did the enemies of Nazi Germany view the Holocaust? We all know that. All right-thinking people in 1945 deplored the wholesale slaughter of innocent human beings. The Nazis were not respected by their enemies. By 1945 standards (and really by the standards of all time) the Nazi was an evil person. By 2017 standards the Nazi was an evil person.

By media and academia standards of 2017, the southerner was an evil person. By the standards of most of mankind in 1865, the southerner was not an evil person.

If we can measure people of 150 year ago by 2017 standards, what's to stop the people of 2160 from measuring us by their standards? If the people of that era view the killing of innocent unborn children as a modern holocaust, won't they be justified in removing every vestige of honor accorded to those who today support abortion rights? Won't they be justified in tearing down the monuments to Barrack Obama and taking him off the face of the $17 bitcoin?

And what about me? I am an employer who tells my employee when to come to work, when to go to lunch, when to go home, what are her off days, how much she gets paid, what the dress code is, what she can listen to on the radio, and how many weeks of paid vacation she gets each year. By our standards today, this is the way employment works. What if, in 2125, that's viewed as some kind of oppressive slavery? Am I therefore evil? Must my great-grandchildren spend their days with heads bowed in shame?

But the masses of 2017, educated by academia and indoctrinated and inflamed by the media, are incapable of reasoning things through.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/23/2017 4:10:41 PM >

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Post #: 160

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 4:16:28 PM

MakeeLearn

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There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again."

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< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 8/23/2017 4:18:32 PM >

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Post #: 161

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 4:31:14 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Nelson supported slavery?

Am I missing something?

warspite1

Not really. The soppy tart has not the wit nor the intelligence to understand what she's waffling on about or where her skewed 'logic' takes us.

I have no idea on Lord Nelson's views on non-white people, but I take it as read that the majority of 'educated', 'god-fearing' and 'civilised' people in the 17th and 18th centuries were racist - if indeed the poor 'black' man troubled their minds at all. They were the times they lived in. It's sad - incredibly sad but we develop and learn. Those alive then, did not have the benefit of our learning, understanding and development - its that that should make us appreciate the likes of William Wilberforce all the more.

I admire Horatio Nelson for his military prowess - for such ability is one of the reasons - probably the reason - my country was not conquered by Napoleon. His statue does not stand in Trafalgar Square because of any racial, religious or sexual views he had; he commands pride of place because as a sailor, a warrior a defender of the UK he was the dogs dangly bits.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/23/2017 4:37:35 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 162

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 4:39:36 PM

warspite1

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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

And what about me? I am an employer who tells my employee when to come to work, when to go to lunch, when to go home, what are her off days, how much she gets paid, what the dress code is, what she can listen to on the radio, and how many weeks of paid vacation she gets each year.

warspite1

Fascist scum bag. Down with Canoerebel and up the workers!

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 163

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 4:40:49 PM

AW1Steve

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As a British friend of mine once said "we live in an age of nutters". (That was in 1983...I think it's not only still true , it's ALWAYS true) :)
Here's the thing. In the 1950's we , as a culture, grew to respect and admire News commentators and academics. The Most trusted man in America" was a journalist and news commentator who destroyed his own image , and those who followed him by admitting (AFTER he retired) that he wasn't honest at all and actually TRIED to shape the news. That would lead to journalist being rated in public opinion polls well after politicians' and lawyers! And not all that ahead of child molesters! This cannot have but helped in their own diminishment and ability to sway opinion.

In the 1960's academia was targeted by revolutionary and other youth groups was destruction , disrespect and diminishment. It succeeded beyond any ones wildest dreams. Now some of those SAME former students are the academic leaders and are demanding respect and obedience. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!

My point is that in both cases these two formerly powerful groups have largely reduced themselves to a punch line. In their place have arisen even more powerful , yet proletariat entities. Due to the computer/internet combination , ANYONE can be a news commentator. Even former reporters who broke with their former masters (in his case the Washington Post) to get their own view out. News is no longer in lockstep with the "big three" networks in the USA. And like any monopoly who loses exclusive control , the big three are dying.

Academia likewise no longer has the death grip on education they once had. Colleges no longer turn away 20 applicants for everyone they accept , but scrabble for every single one. Only the biggest schools can now say whatever they please without being cut off by their biggest funding group , their own alumni. Colleges like U Colorado and Duke university have been bit by the folly of insulting the beliefs and values of those alumni. Many colleges and graduate schools have significantly scaled back their class sizes.

In the case of both these formerly powerful entities , they like the Pekingese dog (that once was the same size as lions) haven't yet recognized how much their influences have shrunk. While neither is yet irrelevant , both are tremendously diminished. How many here can name the three major news anchors of the "big three networks"? You could from the 1950's to the 19980's. That's just one example.

So instead of struggling to regain what they lost , each of these institutions have "dove for the basement" in the "How low can you go sweepstakes". News is largely what which bimbo is wearing where, and colleges keep coming up with weirder and more numerous ways to "protect the feelings" of their inmates (sorry, I meant students).

My point in this long winded spiel is simply this: don't worry quite so much. 1) the "silent majority" (as Nixon termed them is starting to rebel). College enrollment , funding and endowments are way down , technical schools and other vocational education is up. On line classes are in many ways replacing traditional. And news? People are going to blogs , direct sources , "renegade news channels and papers" (from Fox , to on line news papers like the Washington examiner to , well the possibilities are endless.

In short , while messier , information is out there. People as a whole are searching for the whole story , or at least the "not reported" part. While that will lead to some nutcases and "conspiracy lovers", we've always had that. But anyone who really wants information can find it. Via internet , self published books, records on line , real video........

As a relatively recent TV show used to declare "the truth is out there". Or my own feelings , "People are much less willing to be mushrooms".

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Post #: 164

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 4:40:57 PM

Canoerebel

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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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...well, as long as I'm not considered the dogs dangly-bits!

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Post #: 165

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 4:44:16 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

...well, as long as I'm not considered the dogs dangly-bits!

warspite1

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Post #: 166

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 4:46:16 PM

Canoerebel

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AW1Steve, I like what you say but my eyes tell me it isn't so. We see what's happening in America. Those capable of reasoning and good will are a diminishing minority subject to the tyranny of the majority, as all minorities are. The new majority is livid and intolerant and filled with hate against those who see things differently. It's too ironic that the new majority, who values tolerance, love and acceptance above all is filled with intolerance and hate against any who dare to disagree. I think the battle is lost.

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Post #: 167

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 4:49:36 PM

warspite1

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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

AW1Steve, I like what you say but my eyes tell me it isn't so. We see what's happening in America. Those capable of reasoning and good will are a diminishing minority subject to the tyranny of the majority, as all minorities are. The new majority is livid and intolerant and filled with hate against those who see things differently. It's too ironic that the new majority, who values tolerance, love and acceptance above all is filled with intolerance and hate against any who dare to disagree. I think the battle is lost.

warspite1

+1

This is the start of a tide. The silent majority are gradually moving into the minority with each passing generation.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 168

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 5:35:44 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4814024/Now-want-tear-Nelson-s-Column.html

Thank you for sharing.

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Post #: 169

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 5:38:49 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4814024/Now-want-tear-Nelson-s-Column.html

Thats a joke right ? Please say it is.

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Post #: 170

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 5:40:38 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4814024/Now-want-tear-Nelson-s-Column.html

Thats a joke right ? Please say it is.

warspite1

Yes it is - and the joke is on us

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 171

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 5:44:56 PM

John 3rd

Posts: 17178
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From: La Salle, Colorado
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

AW1Steve, I like what you say but my eyes tell me it isn't so. We see what's happening in America. Those capable of reasoning and good will are a diminishing minority subject to the tyranny of the majority, as all minorities are. The new majority is livid and intolerant and filled with hate against those who see things differently. It's too ironic that the new majority, who values tolerance, love and acceptance above all is filled with intolerance and hate against any who dare to disagree. I think the battle is lost.

warspite1

+1

This is the start of a tide. The silent majority are gradually moving into the minority with each passing generation.

I have been out of academia for 10 years. With life continuing to straiten out, I plan to return next year to my beloved field of History. This situation and utter STUPIDITY of it leads me to slightly fear returning and being that 2% of Higher Ed who put conservative behind my name.

We are all about freedom of speech as long as it is MY speech and not yours. WE are all equal but some are more equal then others. To question or challenge is to be branded a racist by the Left. This is the direction I avoided going down in my earlier Post.

These are thought-provoking questions but there is no 'real' way to actually discuss and debate them without it becoming heated with name-calling. Witness the many threads that have been shut down over the years for just this same issue. Someone always throws a bomb into a well-meaning and thoughtful discussion.

Socrates and his 'gadfly' comments about Athens would have gotten him shot in this current environment. No slow poison for today. NOPE!

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 8/23/2017 5:59:21 PM >

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Post #: 172

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 5:51:52 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4814024/Now-want-tear-Nelson-s-Column.html

Thats a joke right ? Please say it is.

warspite1

Yes it is - and the joke is on us

People are really weird.

I have a statue of Bismark not far away. Mind you Bismark was (and is to some point) universally hated here in the south (like all Prussians). Its a bit like a Lincoln statue in the US south I think.

Yet no one makes a fuss about it. I also dont mind. Bismark is Bismark and whats done is done. *shrugs*

Sincerly I hope these people come to their mind.

< Message edited by Gr�fin Zeppelin -- 8/23/2017 5:52:50 PM >

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Post #: 173

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 7:17:57 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4814024/Now-want-tear-Nelson-s-Column.html

Thats a joke right ? Please say it is.

warspite1

Yes it is - and the joke is on us

People are really weird.

I have a statue of Bismark not far away. Mind you Bismark was (and is to some point) universally hated here in the south (like all Prussians). Its a bit like a Lincoln statue in the US south I think.

Yet no one makes a fuss about it. I also dont mind. Bismark is Bismark and whats done is done. *shrugs*

Sincerly I hope these people come to their mind.

The difference is a large population of "people of color" in the US who have been made hypersensitive to the past injustices to their ancestors through the present issues with police, lack of equality in education, etc. , etc. Add in political harangues on both sides that make them fearful and angry and they want to erase all reminders of their pain. I sympathize, but I think monuments to soldiers who fought honorably should stand with a plaque or two to explain the context of their service. R E Lee was not fighting for the practice of slavery, he was fighting for the rights of the citizens of Virginia to choose what policies their government would follow. I'm sure if Virginians voted to end slavery R E Lee would have fought just as hard for his state.

What I do get out of the current situation is that "loaded" rhetoric inflames and both politicians and media should try to choose words carefully. People will listen to the other side once their emotions settle down.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)

Post #: 174

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 7:30:15 PM

John 3rd

Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline

Lee actually was in favor of freeing the slaves and letting them fight for the Confederacy and their own freedom.

_____________________________

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 175

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 7:39:43 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And the latest historical figure in the firing line is Horatio Nelson....

Stop the world I want to get off..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4814024/Now-want-tear-Nelson-s-Column.html

Thats a joke right ? Please say it is.

warspite1

Yes it is - and the joke is on us

People are really weird.

I have a statue of Bismark not far away. Mind you Bismark was (and is to some point) universally hated here in the south (like all Prussians). Its a bit like a Lincoln statue in the US south I think.

Yet no one makes a fuss about it. I also dont mind. Bismark is Bismark and whats done is done. *shrugs*

Sincerly I hope these people come to their mind.

The difference is a large population of "people of color" in the US who have been made hypersensitive to the past injustices to their ancestors through the present issues with police, lack of equality in education, etc. , etc. Add in political harangues on both sides that make them fearful and angry and they want to erase all reminders of their pain. I sympathize, but I think monuments to soldiers who fought honorably should stand with a plaque or two to explain the context of their service. R E Lee was not fighting for the practice of slavery, he was fighting for the rights of the citizens of Virginia to choose what policies their government would follow. I'm sure if Virginians voted to end slavery R E Lee would have fought just as hard for his state.

What I do get out of the current situation is that "loaded" rhetoric inflames and both politicians and media should try to choose words carefully. People will listen to the other side once their emotions settle down.

warspite1

Yes but that's Lee. How about Washington? Now unlike Lee he is more more central to US and US history because well, he's George Washington. Mount Rushmore. The Dollar Bill. The name of the US capital. The name of a US state. How many schools and public buildings are named after the First President of the United States?

Guess what? The First President was a slave owner. If Horatio Nelson is on the list - where does that leave George Washington? This is why I ask Where does it end?

This is now a morale crusade by the oh so worthy and self-righteous (and ignorant), and there is only one place it will end.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 176

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 8:17:41 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

I've talked and typed way too much today. Waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy too much. I've irritated myself.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/23/2017 8:23:12 PM >

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 177

RE: Revisionist History-OT - 8/23/2017 8:48:38 PM

Zorch

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline