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RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 3:06:57 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I would contribute if I was convinced that ten thousand bucks would do the trick. But then I think:

- a single good programmer would probably be paid around $80K-$100K a year. x2 or x3 depending on many things.
- although lots of coding already exists out there, it is protected by intellectual property rights so it cannot be ported over to the new game.
- a design team would have to come up with an interface that is both easy to use and very flexible in the control it gives the user. Voice commands?
- coding and testing on so grand a scale would likely take over a year.
- once the new game seemed mostly de-bugged, it would need to be published and marketed.
- ongoing mods and updates would be required.

I am guesstimating that such a project would run $300K+, and take at least two years. I need more convincing to part with my retirement income with no guarantees!
That underestimates the hours needed by quite a lot. Have a look back at the team that did WITP-AE and I think you will arrive at much higher figures for people needed, hours needed, calendar time needed, money needed (if not all volunteer).

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Post #: 31

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 3:11:57 PM

InfiniteMonkey

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The funding method that makes the most sense for any WitP:AE 2 game is a monthly fee like Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc. Frankly, if you're talking about a game you spend years on, that is the one you should demand as a player. Let's take the examples already cited. Suppose 2000 players that would buy and play the game.

If you sell 2000 copies at $100 per copy, you gross $200,000. Nice money, but if you pay a programmer ~$100k/year - and you'll have to pay that or more to get a decent one - you get two years and you're done... no ongoing support because the guy/gal has a life to live and probably a family to feed. Oh, and that leaves nothing for marketing, hosting, etc. and assumes no production costs. In other words... yeah, not gonna happen.

If you have 2000 subscribers at $120/year;$45/qtr then you get $240,000 - $360,000 PER YEAR to host, maintain, etc. the game. You now have a budget to employ a programmer to work on the bug fixes and hopefully the changes that players want to see in the game. What could michaelm do with WitP:AE if he could work on it full time?

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Post #: 32

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 3:30:16 PM

Yaab

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From: Poland
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More publicity is needed. Basically, Kasparov vs Jap AI - a five year WiTP:AE game on a solitary peak in Iceland with a live feed and worldwide peanut gallery. Obviously, Kasparov would be elligible to play "Dwarf Fortress" on Hard on weekends to decompress.

Remember Deep Blue!

< Message edited by Yaab -- 8/22/2017 3:34:02 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 3:31:10 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

The team would need to be far larger than you guys are visualizing. Here are the credits for WITP-AE, from the manual:

quote:

23.0 CREDITS

Our thanks to Gary Grigsby, Joel Billings
and Keith Brors for the original �War in the
Pacific� and for their help and support on
the Admiral�s Edition project.

23.1 ADMIRAL�S EDITION TEAM

PROJECT MANAGEMENT
Joe Wilkerson - Project Lead, Naval
OOB for IJN Surface Combatants

AIR TEAM
Ian Kibler (TheElf) - Team Lead, air art
Thomas Elliot (TimTom) - OOB Research
Michael McFarland (michaelm) - Programming
Bartsh� Miller (Cathartes) - Air Art

NAVAL TEAM
John Eldrege (JWE) - Naval Team Lead,
OOB Research, Land Devices
Justin Prince (Tankerace) - Allied
OOB Research, Naval Devices
Don Bowen - Programming

GROUND TEAM
Andy McPhie - Team Lead, OOB
research, AI Lead script writer
Gert Heidelberg (Kereguelen) - OOB Research
Joel Szabat (Blackhorse) - OOB
Research, US AI script writer
James Armstrong (BigJ62) - Map,
Land, AI and Editor programming

MAP TEAM
Andrew Brown - Team Lead, Map Development

BETA TEAM
Bill Olson (wdolson) - Team Lead
and Land programming
Brady Mulhausen - Tester, AI Unit Testing
Mike Scholl - Tester
Halsey - Tester
Joe Chandler (Sonny II) - Tester
Rob Carpenter (jrcar) - Tester
Steve Sanchez (ChezDaJez) - Tester
Michael Drager (Yamato Hugger) - Tester
Andrew Kurtz - Tester
Tony Luke - Tester

SHIP ART
John Eldredge (JWE)
Kelley LaBelle (TOMLABEL), also
additional icon art, etc.
Brian Wisher (BigB)

REPORTING
Markus Baumeister (WOOS)
MANUAL EDITORS
Forest Webb (Treespider) - Manual, land/
map research, land team design
Ray Fantone (Skyros) � Manual
screen shots and pictures

SCENARIOS
S001 - Master Campaign Scenario - AE Team
S002 - Alternate Master Campaign
Scenario - AndyMac
S003 - Coral Sea - Kristian Fischer, Naval
OOB for IJN Carriers and Submarines
S004 - GuadMod - Nikademus
S005 - Aleutians - Kristian Fischer

SPECIAL THANKS
Chris Richards (Drongo), Richard Porter (Kid)
VSWG, dw61, AdmiralDadman, Mike Kramer

23.2 MATRIX GAMES

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER
David Heath

ASSOCIATE PRODUCER
Erik Rutins

ART DIRECTOR
Marc von Martial

BOX AND LOGO DESIGN
Marc von Martial

MANUAL DESIGN AND LAYOUT
Marc von Martial
322

GRAPHIC ARTISTS
Marc von Martial, Jim Martin

VIDEO SEQUENCE
Barry Munden

PUBLIC RELATIONS & MARKETING
Sean Drummy

PRODUCTION ASSISTANT
Gregory Wilcox

ADMINISTRATION
Liz Stoltz

DISTRIBUTOR SALES MANAGER
Ross Jepson

BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT MANAGER
Karlis Rutins, Lance Stoltz

SERIOUS GAMES PROJECT MANAGER
Shaun Wallace, David Heath

CUSTOMER SUPPORT STAFF
Daniel Heath, Alex Fiedler, Andrew Williams

FORUM ADMINISTRATION
Andrew Williams, Marc von Martial, Erik
Rutins , David Heath, Paul Vebber

WEB-DATABASE DESIGN & DEVELOPMENT
Alex Fiedler

NETWORK AND SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR
Mike Vahan

NETWORK & PC SUPPORT
Ron Duquesnel

QUALITY ASSURANCE LEAD
Erik Rutins

VERY SPECIAL THANKS
Ron Tedesco, Debra Pugh, Renee
Schoenfelder, Marti Nagy, Bob Lippman,
Thomas Heath, Yvonne Heath.

MATRIX NEXGEN
Alexander Rutins, David Vebber, Megan
Vebber, Andrew Heath, Nicholas Heath,
Shane Heath, Austin Stoltz, Noah Stoltz,
Cameron Eckenfels, Hannah Eckenfels,
Heidi Fiedler, Kai Cloer and Erik Conkling

OUR STRENGTH
We thank God for giving us the ability and strength
to complete this project and follow our dream.
We would also like to thank our families
and friends for giving us their non-stop
love and support during this project.

It looks like the Matrix contribution was significant during development, not just beginning with sales, etc. Still, even if you do not count the team members from Matrix the team was large and it took - what? - 4 years was it?

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Post #: 34

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 3:55:44 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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Was the game comcercially successfull ?

< Message edited by Gr�fin Zeppelin -- 8/22/2017 3:56:10 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 4:03:54 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

Was the game comcercially successfull ?

Marginally I think - in large part from the buzz in this forum and user-created mods that keep it interesting to newcomers.
If it were a big hit Matrix et al would have funded a similar project to update it again.

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Post #: 36

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 4:08:03 PM

zuluhour

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+1 to the monkey in the front row.

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Post #: 37

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 4:09:29 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

Was the game comcercially successfull ?

Marginally I think - in large part from the buzz in this forum and user-created mods that keep it interesting to newcomers.
If it were a big hit Matrix et al would have funded a similar project to update it again.

Yeah, as games go this is a *very* serious game so it must be a niche market.

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Post #: 38

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 5:35:45 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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From: Germany
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I see, thanks for the answers.

It has however an amazingly long shelflife

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Post #: 39

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 5:43:30 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

I see, thanks for the answers.

It has however an amazingly long shelflife

The game requires amazingly long effort to play, so we OCD people tend to stick with it!

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Post #: 40

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 6:41:40 PM

adarbrauner

Posts: 1496
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

How many copies has Matrix sold? has to be a couple thousand.

Has to be at least three times more;

I would not be that much surprised either if it has surpassed the 10.000, with 6000-8000 as the probable.

btw 10.000 sales is still not that money enough to develope a high quality game

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Post #: 41

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 8:52:42 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

I see, thanks for the answers.

It has however an amazingly long shelflife

The game requires amazingly long effort to play, so we OCD people tend to stick with it!

Well OCD or not there is no alternative for this game. I know a guy who owns it for several years, he never really played it but often fires it up to look at the ships, map and stuff.

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Post #: 42

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 9:21:10 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

Was the game comcercially successfull ?

Marginally I think - in large part from the buzz in this forum and user-created mods that keep it interesting to newcomers.
If it were a big hit Matrix et al would have funded a similar project to update it again.

That isn't the problem.

The problem is that there isn't the "talent" knocking down the doors to do a new game. WITPS has been valiantly trying to point out that it is all much more complex. Read my post (#50), Bullwinkle's (#53) and wdolson's (#55) in this March 2016 thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4049409&mpage=2&key=�

to get an inkling of what is required.

The team which was assembled to form Henderson Field Design was not just big, it was very talented. I look at the current Modders sub forum and the same talent level is not there. To produce a commercial product objectivity is required, not the subjective desire to "improve" one side. For a commercial product no amount of what ifs, particularly when they have only the thinnest connection with real historical facts, can be substituted. That market is already well catered for by the HOI franchise.

Then there is the absolute commercial requirement of producing a product which caters to the solo player. The majority of purchasers are solo players who do not post. AE has been out for 8 years and as I have previously pointed out, no non AE dev has produced and published a single script. The first thing that Matrix would demand is a viable solo play game. Which in the context of what is regularly put forward in these WITP II wishful threads, would entail a new AI plus something to replace the scripts. Eight years of life and not a single non AE dev has exhibited any internal fortitude to undertake that task which alone would likely consume a work year.

Alfred

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Post #: 43

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/22/2017 11:31:22 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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I'll repeat one more time for the cheap seats. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Instead of wishing for this and that, to be quite honest I'm continually amazed at the depth and nuance that this game keeps showing. Are there items I would prefer are different, added, or changed? Yes, but you may not care for these nor I for your ideas. Besides a new product would be a different product and not necessarily better. I've been in the electronics/computer field for over 40 years now, and I'm constantly annoyed by new systems/software where functions are 'lost' because someone decided they were unneeded, unimportant, or simply unnoticed. Sometimes just not in the budget. The result being loss of functionality, at least in my eyes. With years put into this product I'll stick by it for at least the near future and most likely well beyond that.

So, is it perfect, no. We ever get perfect, not me. It is great fun though after all.

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(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 44

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 12:15:47 AM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

Was the game comcercially successfull ?

Marginally I think - in large part from the buzz in this forum and user-created mods that keep it interesting to newcomers.
If it were a big hit Matrix et al would have funded a similar project to update it again.

That isn't the problem.

The problem is that there isn't the "talent" knocking down the doors to do a new game. WITPS has been valiantly trying to point out that it is all much more complex. Read my post (#50), Bullwinkle's (#53) and wdolson's (#55) in this March 2016 thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4049409&mpage=2&key=�

to get an inkling of what is required.

The team which was assembled to form Henderson Field Design was not just big, it was very talented. I look at the current Modders sub forum and the same talent level is not there. To produce a commercial product objectivity is required, not the subjective desire to "improve" one side. For a commercial product no amount of what ifs, particularly when they have only the thinnest connection with real historical facts, can be substituted. That market is already well catered for by the HOI franchise.

Then there is the absolute commercial requirement of producing a product which caters to the solo player. The majority of purchasers are solo players who do not post. AE has been out for 8 years and as I have previously pointed out, no non AE dev has produced and published a single script. The first thing that Matrix would demand is a viable solo play game. Which in the context of what is regularly put forward in these WITP II wishful threads, would entail a new AI plus something to replace the scripts. Eight years of life and not a single non AE dev has exhibited any internal fortitude to undertake that task which alone would likely consume a work year.

Alfred

Right-O! Without the elite volunteer team we are probably talking about mid to high 7 figures US$, not a few hundred thousand.

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Post #: 45

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 2:51:34 AM

pbiggar

Posts: 71
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Status: offline

I would be in as well, but the obstacles to producing decent working software are great.

Some questions that come to mind to help estimate the project:
- Do we know what was the size of the original project team, budget and duration?
- Would we have access to any of the existing source code, documentation or data - just assembling the data is a huge undertaking.
- In addition to a year for development, there must be 3-6 months of work to document and understand the requirements
- It feels to me like $500K+ to do it right. That would be 5000 units at $100 a pop.

Not enough wealthy geeks to fund it

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Post #: 46

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 2:58:59 AM

Numdydar

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Interesting discussion as always

A very similar chat is going on over on Steam with the developer of Darklands.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/327930/discussions/0/343788552550787364/

People are asking for a remake of that game and the developer is saying the exact same things that Alfred and other are about what is needed for AE 2.0 The difference is that one of the posters actually downloaded the free copy of Unity and put together a very rough prototype to show that he was serious about helping making a Darklands II.

We have lots of good people on this forum, so if we as a group really want an AE 2.0, then WE need to SHOW that we are serious by actually doing something to move the ball forward. If none of us, or not enough of us, are not willing to do so, then we are just howling at the moon by talking about what we want in a new version.

I will start the ball rolling and publicly state that I am willing to manage the project, do documentation, database management, and research for a new version. Plus anything else that does not require actual coding. Those days are long gone

.

So we have one person willing to commit to this. Anyone else willing?

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Post #: 47

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 8:11:01 AM

adarbrauner

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I'd like to commit - but again not for coding or programming, for which I don't have knowledge moment being. Documentation, research, proposal of solutions for the game, etc.

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Post #: 48

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 2:25:15 PM

Numdydar

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So we have three. Only about 30 to go if we look at the AE list of people involved lol.

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Post #: 49

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 2:33:49 PM

crsutton

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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

At $100 a pop it only requires 1000 people to hit $100K. How many copies has Matrix sold? has to be a couple thousand. And some people would donate more than $100. Heck personally I'd probably go $250 without blinking for this game - the return over the years is priceless.

You know, if you had just caught me last week I would be all in. But I just blew it all on a cheap hooker and a bottle of Jack Daniels. Now I got to go see the doctor. Maybe next time.

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Post #: 50

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 2:45:22 PM

pontiouspilot

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I could have told you that corn mash crap would send you to Dr!!

On topic: I would pay for a re-make and an ongoing subscription. The subscription would ideally provide the sort of stuff covered by the betas, DBB, enhanced art and maps etc. I would have no issue paying for this and getting it in a format a fool (me) can download and apply.

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Post #: 51

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 3:02:01 PM

Canoerebel

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For you newbs, Ross (crsutton) had an encounter with a Chilean prostitute a number of years ago that left him quite jaded.

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Post #: 52

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 3:06:04 PM

btd64

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

For you newbs, Ross (crsutton) had an encounter with a Chilean prostitute a number of years ago that left him quite jaded.

....GP

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Post #: 53

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 5:08:24 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

For you newbs, Ross (crsutton) had an encounter with a Chilean prostitute a number of years ago that left him quite jaded.

He's not much of a conversationalist.

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Post #: 54

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 5:20:11 PM

witpqs

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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pbiggar

I would be in as well, but the obstacles to producing decent working software are great.

Some questions that come to mind to help estimate the project:
- Do we know what was the size of the original project team, budget and duration?
- Would we have access to any of the existing source code, documentation or data - just assembling the data is a huge undertaking.
- In addition to a year for development, there must be 3-6 months of work to document and understand the requirements
- It feels to me like $500K+ to do it right. That would be 5000 units at $100 a pop.
More like that x10.

Not enough wealthy geeks to fund it

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Post #: 55

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 5:30:45 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

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But somehow there is a market for a half dozen Panzer General/ Close Combat clones that are launched every year

For me, even porting the old game into a more user friendly platform would be a win

My "tinfoil hat" guess is that Matrix prefers the more disposable games

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 8/23/2017 5:34:04 PM >

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Post #: 56

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 6:02:54 PM

RedLancer

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Alfred is spot on. The challenges he highlights I can see in WitE2 although we do have a Team and are making progress.

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Post #: 57

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/23/2017 11:14:22 PM

rustysi

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quote:

So we have one person willing to commit to this. Anyone else willing?

I could kick in some cash, and would be a willing 'beta tester', although I've never done it before.

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Post #: 58

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/24/2017 6:52:09 AM

Barb

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I am a software tester by occupation, so I can lend a hand in there, but nowhere near the FTE, nor even half time (you know the work, family, sleep and all the stuff...)

So I would like to participate somehow, but I am not sure how much would I be able to toss in (be it either in the specification/documentation/creation part of the project, or actual testing).

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Post #: 59

RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version - 8/24/2017 12:36:01 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Then there is the absolute commercial requirement of producing a product which caters to the solo player. The majority of purchasers are solo players who do not post. AE has been out for 8 years and as I have previously pointed out, no non AE dev has produced and published a single script. The first thing that Matrix would demand is a viable solo play game. Which in the context of what is regularly put forward in these WITP II wishful threads, would entail a new AI plus something to replace the scripts. Eight years of life and not a single non AE dev has exhibited any internal fortitude to undertake that task which alone would likely consume a work year.

Alfred

Or more.

I've been working far longer than a year on scripts. The issue is testing, not writing scripts. The issue with testing is the farther you get from game start the longer it takes to test. A non-dev cannot create intermediate start points to test AI, the AI is set at game start. So ....

Having said that, you are correct. Only one dev had what it took to do the AI, he did all of it. An amazing effort that I appreciate every day.

Anticipating a question here: no, you cannot simply run dual AI to get forward in time to test. The AI will never perform at the same level as a human player, so the point that you want to test won't be accurate at all in terms of what your AI script will likely face. I learned that lesson almost 5 years ago. You have to play to the point where the AI acript(s) kick in and then see how they fare ...

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Post #: 60