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A6M5, what next ? - 8/27/2017 7:02:35 AM

ElvisDaKing

Posts: 130
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Status: offline

Hi

I am in October 1942 (PBEM) and I have just achieved R&D for A6M5.

But I am quite puzzled about next R&D choice.
I have currently 7 full R&D (x30) for A6M5 and when looking at new A6M updates , I am not sure it worth the time and ressources to pursue research for A6M serie.

A6M5b : available June 44 : replaced 1 x 7.7mm machine gun with 1 x 13.2mm MG, but loose 3mph
A6M5c : available October 44 : 3 x 13.7mm and armor, but top speed only 336mph, furthermore normal range is only 5 hexs so not suitable to escort Judy/Jill for offensive carrier op�rations.
A6M8 : available August 45 : Top speed 350mph , armement ok even if it lacks accuracy, but normal range is only 4 hexs....

Well I know about A7M2 Sam - Sept 45 - with top speed 392 mph but range is still too short with 4 hexs
(re : I have 4 x R&D for A7M2 - not yet fully repaired)

re : I still have all my CV, except Soryu and Hyriu, and sunk most of allied CV, british and US.
so I plan to use my CV for still some time...

So should I keep on R&D for A6M or reallocate some R&D factories to research other airframe ?

I was thinking
- Reallocating 1 R&D factory for A7M2 Sam and another one for Ki-83...
- Dedicating some CV fighter squadrons for escort role with A6M5/AM5b...
- Dedicated some CV fighter squadrons for CAP role with A6M8 then A7M2...

re my R&D (fighters)
7 x A6M5 Zeke (fully operationnal)
1 x A6M5d-S (NF)
4 x A7M2 Sam
1 x C6N1-S Myrt (NF)
4 x J7W1 Shinden
3 x Ki-100 I Tony
4 x Ki-43 IIb (fully operational)
1 x Ki-46 III KAI Dinah (NF)
3 x Ki-44 IIb (fully operational)
1 x Ki-102b Randy
3 x Ki-83
6 x Ki-84a Frank
6 x Ki-84b Frank
6 x N1K1-J George

_____________________________

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Post #: 1

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 8/27/2017 7:42:28 AM

GetAssista

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I assume you are on PDU ON.
Higher-tier A6 are better in CAP role because of armor. So until you have Sam for you carriers, you can have mixed squadrons of A6M5 exclusively for escort and A6M5c/A6M8 for CAP. It's your choice whever you want more solid KB CAP earlier for 1943 carrier fights, or plan to have KB on less fighting more raiding. Fully repaired A6 factories are an asset you should not switch lightly. But if you do, do it into Sam.
Goes w/o saying that land-based IJN fighters better not employ A6 at all, that's what George/Jack are for.

(in reply to ElvisDaKing)

Post #: 2

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 8/27/2017 8:48:41 AM

belfry

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Joined: 6/19/2010
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I'm currently using A6M5b and they are struggling against faster allied fighters but the upgraded MG does leave a few with damage during engagements. For me the thing with the A6 is that just have to keep building them in numbers and use them to chip away at bombers and superior allied fighters. Some of those allied fighters have service ratings as high as 3. You're rarely going to come away from an engagement with a lot of kills. So you just have to keep the stocks up, rely on a fast turn around with its low service rating and try and make your attrition rate less than the allies. Pilot replacement will become an issue if you go for anything other than CAP and with inexperienced pilots, it doesn't really matter how hard you train them, they will fail. The bright side is that the George does Ok but isnt a CV aircraft. I personally would go for the 5b especially if you have it all set up to go. If you get your engines over 500 you will reduce the time by a month every 8 days.....If you change the factory you will damage them with obvious consequences.

Si

< Message edited by munichman -- 8/27/2017 9:01:07 AM >

(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 3

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 8/27/2017 12:11:54 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing

Hi

I am in October 1942 (PBEM) and I have just achieved R&D for A6M5.

But I am quite puzzled about next R&D choice.
I have currently 7 full R&D (x30) for A6M5 and when looking at new A6M updates , I am not sure it worth the time and ressources to pursue research for A6M serie.

A6M5b : available June 44 : replaced 1 x 7.7mm machine gun with 1 x 13.2mm MG, but loose 3mph
A6M5c : available October 44 : 3 x 13.7mm and armor, but top speed only 336mph, furthermore normal range is only 5 hexs so not suitable to escort Judy/Jill for offensive carrier op�rations.
A6M8 : available August 45 : Top speed 350mph , armement ok even if it lacks accuracy, but normal range is only 4 hexs....

Well I know about A7M2 Sam - Sept 45 - with top speed 392 mph but range is still too short with 4 hexs
(re : I have 4 x R&D for A7M2 - not yet fully repaired)

re : I still have all my CV, except Soryu and Hyriu, and sunk most of allied CV, british and US.
so I plan to use my CV for still some time...

So should I keep on R&D for A6M or reallocate some R&D factories to research other airframe ?

I was thinking
- Reallocating 1 R&D factory for A7M2 Sam and another one for Ki-83...
- Dedicating some CV fighter squadrons for escort role with A6M5/AM5b...
- Dedicated some CV fighter squadrons for CAP role with A6M8 then A7M2...

re my R&D (fighters)
7 x A6M5 Zeke (fully operationnal)
1 x A6M5d-S (NF)
4 x A7M2 Sam
1 x C6N1-S Myrt (NF)
4 x J7W1 Shinden
3 x Ki-100 I Tony
4 x Ki-43 IIb (fully operational)
1 x Ki-46 III KAI Dinah (NF)
3 x Ki-44 IIb (fully operational)
1 x Ki-102b Randy
3 x Ki-83
6 x Ki-84a Frank
6 x Ki-84b Frank
6 x N1K1-J George

This looks pretty good to my eyes, ElvisDaKing. I can nibble around the edges a bit, but it's largely a solid premise. For example, I would:

1. Discontinue (D/C) J7W1 research. Put it into A7M2.

2. Concentrate on one or, at most, two NF research trees and build at least 4 of those factories.

3. In your scenario, does Ki-84a next go to Ki-84r by research? Is Ki-84b a "solo" tree? If so, I'd focus on the 'a' model and then switch over to 'r' near production rather than create two wholly independent research trees. This would mean switching any 'b' production over to 'a' with this subsequent transition in mind.

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Post #: 4

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 8/27/2017 1:18:17 PM

ElvisDaKing

Posts: 130
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Status: offline

Yes PDU ON

Well i think i ll go with a mix of A6M5/A6M5b for escort and A6M5c/A6M8 for CAP

Although, i ll change 2 R&D from A6M5 to A7M2...

I skipped Jack and go with N1KJ George for LBA IJN fighters
I think it s good idea to keep a few squadrons with their SR 1 to keep continuous air cover, but I ll give this task to Ki-100 Tony and Ki-43 IV Oscar

I ll keep the J7W1 Shinden : I can understand that its a questionable choice, but well what the point to plauy Japan if you can t get this cool stuff ;)

For Ki-84a and Ki-84b, I ll go with both options, even if Ki-84b is a separate tree.
I have 6 R&D dedicated for each of them.
Plan is to convert 3 in production and keep 3 for researching Ki-84r, so at a time, I will have 6 R&D for Ki-84r...

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Post #: 5

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 8/27/2017 3:45:45 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing
I ll keep the J7W1 Shinden : I can understand that its a questionable choice, but well what the point to plauy Japan if you can t get this cool stuff ;)

For Ki-84a and Ki-84b, I ll go with both options, even if Ki-84b is a separate tree.
I have 6 R&D dedicated for each of them.
Plan is to convert 3 in production and keep 3 for researching Ki-84r, so at a time, I will have 6 R&D for Ki-84r...

WRT the J7W1, to each their own. The odds are excellent that you'll never get to play with Shindens regardless of a very small research investment anyways. Unless you're able to pull them forward at least 6 months, that effort will be squandered. Same with production of their proprietary engine design.

I think a mere 3 Ki-84a production facilities insufficient. You will need many hundreds / low thousands by late 1944 in your supply. 3 factories will be insufficient unless grossly overexpanded after in production.

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Post #: 6

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/1/2017 9:39:01 AM

Zecke

Posts: 1330
Joined: 1/15/2005
From: Hitoeton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing

Hi

I am in October 1942 (PBEM) and I have just achieved R&D for A6M5.

But I am quite puzzled about next R&D choice.
I have currently 7 full R&D (x30) for A6M5 and when looking at new A6M updates , I am not sure it worth the time and ressources to pursue research for A6M serie.

A6M5b : available June 44 : replaced 1 x 7.7mm machine gun with 1 x 13.2mm MG, but loose 3mph
A6M5c : available October 44 : 3 x 13.7mm and armor, but top speed only 336mph, furthermore normal range is only 5 hexs so not suitable to escort Judy/Jill for offensive carrier op�rations.
A6M8 : available August 45 : Top speed 350mph , armement ok even if it lacks accuracy, but normal range is only 4 hexs....

Well I know about A7M2 Sam - Sept 45 - with top speed 392 mph but range is still too short with 4 hexs
(re : I have 4 x R&D for A7M2 - not yet fully repaired)

re : I still have all my CV, except Soryu and Hyriu, and sunk most of allied CV, british and US.
so I plan to use my CV for still some time...

So should I keep on R&D for A6M or reallocate some R&D factories to research other airframe ?

I was thinking
- Reallocating 1 R&D factory for A7M2 Sam and another one for Ki-83...
- Dedicating some CV fighter squadrons for escort role with A6M5/AM5b...
- Dedicated some CV fighter squadrons for CAP role with A6M8 then A7M2...

re my R&D (fighters)
7 x A6M5 Zeke (fully operationnal)
1 x A6M5d-S (NF)
4 x A7M2 Sam
1 x C6N1-S Myrt (NF)
4 x J7W1 Shinden
3 x Ki-100 I Tony
4 x Ki-43 IIb (fully operational)
1 x Ki-46 III KAI Dinah (NF)
3 x Ki-44 IIb (fully operational)
1 x Ki-102b Randy
3 x Ki-83
6 x Ki-84a Frank
6 x Ki-84b Frank
6 x N1K1-J George

A6M5 is good for a really really short time..just buiuld as much as you can A6M5c

(in reply to ElvisDaKing)

Post #: 7

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/1/2017 6:29:04 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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There's no reason not to run the A6M8 completely on your CVs, really. You should absolutely get to the A6M5c at the least - the armor is a huge boost and allows them to go toe to toe with Hellcats. Drop tanks on CVs don't appear to use sorties, and it's not like you'll be flying many days in a row of strikes with your CVs, so the extra fatigue from having to use drop tanks on your A6M8 to escort your strike is not really relevant.

You also want your strike escorts to do as well as possible so that you can get as many planes as possible over the target.

You should switch all of your IJNAF LBA to the Jack/George and maybe Sam when it comes online later. Shinden if you get it. There's no reason to keep using the A6M5/b/c in that role - the George can fly just as far or farther, and is better, if you need escorts.

(in reply to Zecke)

Post #: 8

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/2/2017 1:27:42 PM

ElvisDaKing

Posts: 130
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Status: offline

Thanks for the feedback

Actually my concern with A6M5c is that, despite it gets armor, the speed drop is quite important compared to A6M5...

So better to have a fast A6M5 or a slower but armored A6M5c ?

I m thinking about keeping the A6M5 / A6M5b for the CAP above CVs and using A6M5c for the raid escort....

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Post #: 9

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/2/2017 7:23:02 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing

Thanks for the feedback

Actually my concern with A6M5c is that, despite it gets armor, the speed drop is quite important compared to A6M5...

So better to have a fast A6M5 or a slower but armored A6M5c ?

I m thinking about keeping the A6M5 / A6M5b for the CAP above CVs and using A6M5c for the raid escort....

Armor is worth it.

(in reply to ElvisDaKing)

Post #: 10

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/2/2017 8:49:22 PM

Xargun

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Armor is worth it.

I would second that. I have the 5c in my current game and am losing zeros in droves against P-38s, but pilot losses are minimal.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 11

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/3/2017 1:34:56 AM

PaxMondo

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Just to second a lot of thoughts here. with PDU on, focus will pay dividends in terms of research.

A7M early is a big help, almost all air groups will upgrade to it. Investing big will pay back as you will need all of that in production. Ditto Ki-84. It may be possible to over due RnD on those two models, but not easily.

George or Jack are very nice interims for the IJN until A7M arrives. Ditto Tojo until Ki84 arrives.

Others can be used, but having Ki84/A7M as your primary fighters in '44 will really help balance out a lot. Don't get fooled, the IJ will not ever get a plane equal to either the last TBolt or Stang. <period> What you want is to get a lot of what you can that is close: Frank/Sam is it.

Ki94/Ki83/J7W wunderkin all suffer from high SR and other issues (2E, armament, range, etc). While you may get them before war end, it is VERY difficult to get them in numbers IN BATTLE to make any difference. Remember, SR4 aircraft will take almost 4 weeks before the group is ready for combat after upgrade ... and you have to be careful moving them ....

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Post #: 12

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/3/2017 5:49:46 PM

ny59giants

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quote:

Remember, SR4 aircraft will take almost 4 weeks before the group is ready for combat after upgrade ... and you have to be careful moving them ....

Just look at your Emily to see how long the recovery time is for an air group to recover. They are SR4.

Japan - potential shortage of trained IJN pilots. So, you want the armor so your pilots survive.
Allies - potential shortage of airframes. So, attrition 'can' be your friend.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 13

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/3/2017 6:13:39 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

Remember, SR4 aircraft will take almost 4 weeks before the group is ready for combat after upgrade ... and you have to be careful moving them ....

Just look at your Emily to see how long the recovery time is for an air group to recover. They are SR4.

Japan - potential shortage of trained IJN pilots. So, you want the armor so your pilots survive.
Allies - potential shortage of airframes. So, attrition 'can' be your friend.

Long, but not a week

.

I think of how long it takes to get B-24s up and running again. Yes, it takes perhaps 6 days or so to get the full complement running - but a functional number of planes will be available within a couple of days.

As kept getting repeated in a book I just finished... a man in the desert takes such water as he is given/offered. Or something like that.

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 14

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/4/2017 2:34:18 AM

PaxMondo

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Here is a sandbox shot of a group of SR4 planes just upgraded. This is about 50% of them and they are all +10 days. As you know, in combat conditions, it is fairly common that these estimates of readiness are optimistic; at least in my games. So call it two weeks to get half the group ready, which when/if you put into use means instead of a 49 plane group you are using a 24 plane group. Granted if you have to, you do. BUT I will argue in that case an SR2 fighter is the FAR better choice (Frank), as I will take 49 Franks in the air against 24 J7W's every time.

Now, if I can take time to get the 49 plane SR4 airgroup fully operational, then I can like it. I do like J7W, but realistically for planning purposes I allow a month for it to be operational. Maybe I get it in 25 or 28 days. Fine. Nits. Mits. Mice. Same thing to me. It ain't 7 days no matter how you cut it. At least as I count.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 10/4/2017 2:38:59 AM >

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Post #: 15

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/4/2017 2:37:54 PM

ElvisDaKing

Posts: 130
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
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Thanks for your replies ;)

Yes, I am keeping close eyes on squadron with high SR airplane

Well, we are still in October 42, so lot of time before Ki84/A7M2, and even before Ki-83/J7W1 which I plan to use for Home Island defense late 44/beg 45, which I plan to put on very large base..
(I will not build Ki-894 becquse not producing engine Ha-44)

My plan is indeed to have Ki-84 for IJAF and A7M2 for IJN
A7M2 is Sr 2, so should be OK, but Ki-84 is SR3 so it can be difficult to operate them intensively, reason why I will use also a secondery plane for IJAF, Ki-43 IV or Ki-100 Ia - did not make my mind yet - which have a SR1

Ki-83 is also SR3 so they will also operate with Ki-43 IV or Ki-100 Ia
I will also produce J7W1 but don t plan to convert all my IJN squadrons as the Shinden has a very short legs... Only one group on each major base on Home Island.
A7M2 should be my IJN fighter until end of the war...

Got a question regarding Ki-84 Franck as 3 models are available
Ki-84a is the first available and will obviously be produced (got 6 R&D factories - 3 or 4 will be converted for Production)

Ki-84b will be also produced when available (got 6 R&D factories - 4 or 5 will be converted for Production)

Then will come the Ki-84r...

but Ki-84r is obviously better plane than Ki-84a, but I could keep the Ki-84b and not upgrade to Ki-84r because Ki-84b has a much better armement 4 x 20mm canons, against 2 x 12.7mm machine gun and 2 x 20mm canons.
In other hand, Ki-84r is slighlty fastest and better performances at high altitude...

Your thoughts ?

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Post #: 16

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/4/2017 2:58:33 PM

decourcy2

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The R was never built, it was just an idea to up the altitude performance, and while I understand that you do need something to kill bombers. I would stick with the earlier versions.

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Post #: 17

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/4/2017 3:49:24 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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1 or 2 weeks is just not my experience with that.

Next time I do it (which will be very soon), I will keep a close eye on it.

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Post #: 18

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/4/2017 8:40:40 PM

rustysi

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From: LI, NY
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quote:

Remember, SR4 aircraft will take almost 4 weeks before the group is ready for combat after upgrade ... and you have to be careful moving them ....

Will not excess AS help lower these numbers, or at least keep A/C operational longer before needing to be 'withdrawn' for repair?

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Post #: 19

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/4/2017 10:18:46 PM

decourcy2

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I don't think excess helps, but I know that less AS than needed slows maintenance.

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Post #: 20

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/4/2017 11:24:57 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: decourcy2

I don't think excess helps, but I know that less AS than needed slows maintenance.

At one point when the game first came out I recall something about excess air support helping up to 50% of the needed air support. More than that did not help because they wanted to simulate the limited space and equipment to have multiple people working in the same part of the aircraft. That is why a level 8 airfield doubles the effect of air support - the equipment and stands allow more mechanics to get to work on the same area or remove major parts of the aircraft for repairs.

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Post #: 21

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/5/2017 12:04:08 AM

decourcy2

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I am unsure if Don kept that; it is not in the manual now. Only the Don knows.

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Post #: 22

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/5/2017 1:09:05 AM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: decourcy2

I don't think excess helps, but I know that less AS than needed slows maintenance.

At one point when the game first came out I recall something about excess air support helping up to 50% of the needed air support. More than that did not help because they wanted to simulate the limited space and equipment to have multiple people working in the same part of the aircraft. That is why a level 8 airfield doubles the effect of air support - the equipment and stands allow more mechanics to get to work on the same area or remove major parts of the aircraft for repairs.

Not to mention airfield size...

I suspect that excess air support may still help. I am basing that on nothing other than gut feeling, as I almost always have plenty of air support (more than I need in most cases) and I don't experience these extreme wait times for high SR aircraft. Noticeably longer than SR1 and SR2, yes, but not measured in weeks.

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Post #: 23

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/5/2017 2:16:03 AM

Lowpe

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When you initially upgrade a unit, the wait time is 2 weeks plus. But if you ship them by rail to another base, they repair in 3-7 days.

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Post #: 24

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/5/2017 3:30:23 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

When you initially upgrade a unit, the wait time is 2 weeks plus. But if you ship them by rail to another base, they repair in 3-7 days.

We'll see... I'll check it. The time for the initial upgrade to bring the planes online is longer, yes. But replacements and repairs/maintenance do not take anywhere near as long.

Unpacking by rail is a bit different. Definitely affected by SR, but even SR1 takes more than a day to unpack.

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Post #: 25

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/5/2017 1:21:15 PM

PaxMondo

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Anecdotal evidence for me:
- larger AF helps
- excess AV support helps
- excess support helps
- excess supply helps

- air raids - hurts (a lot)
- AF damage - hurts (a lot)
- proximity to combat - hurts

So in the late game, when the HI is under attack and no longer a safe haven, I find that upgrades take much longer than in the mid game where you can upgrade in Tokyo and the units seem to just jump up ready to go. Just what I have seen ... consider it as you will ...

It may also be perception ... other than Mavis/Emily, you don't have many SR4 or higher AC until '45 ...

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Post #: 26

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/5/2017 2:36:12 PM

Xargun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
- AF damage - hurts (a lot)

So in the late game, when the HI is under attack and no longer a safe haven, I find that upgrades take much longer than in the mid game where you can upgrade in Tokyo and the units seem to just jump up ready to go. Just what I have seen ... consider it as you will ...

It may also be perception ... other than Mavis/Emily, you don't have many SR4 or higher AC until '45 ...

I have noticed mostly Airfield Service Damage affects repair time; not runway damage.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 27

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/5/2017 3:20:02 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
- AF damage - hurts (a lot)
So in the late game, when the HI is under attack and no longer a safe haven, I find that upgrades take much longer than in the mid game where you can upgrade in Tokyo and the units seem to just jump up ready to go. Just what I have seen ... consider it as you will ...
It may also be perception ... other than Mavis/Emily, you don't have many SR4 or higher AC until '45 ...

I have noticed mostly Airfield Service Damage affects repair time; not runway damage.

If your airgroup is on active duty, planes would be damaged by the poor condition of the runway. So full repair will be delayed. If the airgroup is on standoff (Training at 0) then runway damage does not matter. Service damage matters in all the cases.

(in reply to Xargun)

Post #: 28

RE: A6M5, what next ? - 10/5/2017 4:49:10 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Anecdotal evidence for me:
- larger AF helps
- excess AV support helps
- excess support helps
- excess supply helps

- air raids - hurts (a lot)
- AF damage - hurts (a lot)
- proximity to combat - hurts

So in the late game, when the HI is under attack and no longer a safe haven, I find that upgrades take much longer than in the mid game where you can upgrade in Tokyo and the units seem to just jump up ready to go. Just what I have seen ... consider it as you will ...

It may also be perception ... other than Mavis/Emily, you don't have many SR4 or higher AC until '45 ...