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Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T4 v. AI)

 
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Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T4 v. AI) - 8/28/2017 5:38:34 AM   
WingedIncubus


Posts: 512
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline 		I absolutely suck at playing the Soviets. While I understand the big picture of trading space against time, slowing down the Axis while building enough reinforcements to build defensive lines, it is know-how of actually doing it turn per turn that is a real puzzle to me, especially in the early turns when the Soviet player has no choice but to build paper-thin lines. How to fend for myself with so many routed, useless units scattered around that I have to reorganize... and there is so much hexes that routed or unready units can run away east on each turn...

What I can understand, is to use ZOCs and Hedgehog tactics. And even more challenging to me... where to place them. To my offensive eye, every River had an easy point to pierce through. While there is a gazillion of tutorials on how to blitzkrieg with the Axis, there is no tutorial on how to evaluate on the map where to build lines, and what steps to take defend early with the Soviets.

Currently, the "Advanced" tips for Soviet is Chinese micromanagement to me. It's like learning calculus when I barely count on my fingers. What's important is to survive and build something that is... well... remotelt competent with the counters on the map.

This is a Soviet T1 against Axis AI (Normal difficulty) from Road to Leningrad. Could you critique the line I have built with whatever I could muster?



And yes, I was able to break the pocket south of Riga. This should grant me one more turn in which the Axis will have to mop them out, and some of them will teleport behind my lines. However, the main threat is the Panzers and Motorized units that have reached the Dvina.

Thanks!

< Message edited by Drakken -- 9/2/2017 5:34:23 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/28/2017 6:06:36 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakken

I absolutely suck at playing the Soviets. While I understand the big picture of trading space against time, slowing down the Axis while building enough reinforcements to build defensive lines, it is know-how of actually doing it turn per turn that is a real puzzle to me, especially in the early turns when the Soviet player has no choice but to build paper-thin lines. How to fend for myself with so many routed, useless units scattered around that I have to reorganize... and there is so much hexes that routed or unready units can run away east on each turn...

What I can understand, is to use ZOCs and Hedgehog tactics. And even more challenging to me... where to place them. To my offensive eye, every River had an easy point to pierce through. While there is a gazillion of tutorials on how to blitzkrieg with the Axis, there is no tutorial on how to evaluate on the map where to build lines, and what steps to take defend early with the Soviets.

Currently, the "Advanced" tips for Soviet is Chinese micromanagement to me. It's like learning calculus when I barely count on my fingers. What's important is to survive and build something that is... well... remotelt competent with the counters on the map.

This is a Soviet T1 against Axis AI (Normal difficulty) from Road to Leningrad. Could you critique the line I have built with whatever I could muster?



And yes, I was able to break the pocket south of Riga. This should grant me one more turn in which the Axis will have to mop them out, and some of them will teleport behind my lines. However, the main threat is the Panzers and Motorized units that have reached the Dvina.

Thanks!


From my experience the best way to learn to play the Soviets well is to play Germany. Sounds counter intuitative but you know so much more on how to defend when knowing what to expect. Now having said this are you preparing a denfense against the AI or a player? Both are 2 totally different defenses.


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Post #: 2
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/28/2017 6:09:32 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakken

I absolutely suck at playing the Soviets. While I understand the big picture of trading space against time, slowing down the Axis while building enough reinforcements to build defensive lines, it is know-how of actually doing it turn per turn that is a real puzzle to me, especially in the early turns when the Soviet player has no choice but to build paper-thin lines. How to fend for myself with so many routed, useless units scattered around that I have to reorganize... and there is so much hexes that routed or unready units can run away east on each turn...

What I can understand, is to use ZOCs and Hedgehog tactics. And even more challenging to me... where to place them. To my offensive eye, every River had an easy point to pierce through. While there is a gazillion of tutorials on how to blitzkrieg with the Axis, there is no tutorial on how to evaluate on the map where to build lines, and what steps to take defend early with the Soviets.

Currently, the "Advanced" tips for Soviet is Chinese micromanagement to me. It's like learning calculus when I barely count on my fingers. What's important is to survive and build something that is... well... remotelt competent with the counters on the map.

This is a Soviet T1 against Axis AI (Normal difficulty) from Road to Leningrad. Could you critique the line I have built with whatever I could muster?



And yes, I was able to break the pocket south of Riga. This should grant me one more turn in which the Axis will have to mop them out, and some of them will teleport behind my lines. However, the main threat is the Panzers and Motorized units that have reached the Dvina.

Thanks!


From my experience the best way to learn to play the Soviets well is to play Germany. Sounds counter intuitative but you know so much more on how to defend when knowing what to expect. Now having said this are you preparing a denfense against the AI or a player? Both are 2 totally different defenses.



I know this is an AI match but long term are you just going to be playing the AI or are you going to be playing others?

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RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/28/2017 6:58:19 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		There is no way you can mount an effective defense with so few units whatsoever

You tried to make it costly to cross the large river, which is good. The only issue is that the ennemy already have 2 bridges.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 8/28/2017 6:59:24 AM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/28/2017 11:43:56 AM   
WingedIncubus


Posts: 512
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I know this is an AI match but long term are you just going to be playing the AI or are you going to be playing others?


I have already attempted to play a flew GC in PBEM as the Soviets over the last few years. All of them were given up before reaching the Blizzard, because the situation was deemed hopeless. But these were not recent. While the comments were quite helpful, they were not helping me actually knowing what I should be doing.

So to me, this is training before going back to PBEM, but this time aiming at least not to be a pushover.

< Message edited by Drakken -- 8/28/2017 11:46:29 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/28/2017 1:20:50 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		Another unhelpful comment - but the AI is so bad at playing Axis that I think it is difficult to get much of a game out of it. It does play a reasonable game as Soviet however so in my experience more enjoyable to play against the AI from the other side.

However to critique your defensive line, would suggest you pull back all your useful divisions to somewhere defensible and start constructing entrenchments and set up units in reserve there, with the air force backing up behind them. Even against the AI would think you are not going to be able to hold the Dvina, and risky to put the air force within range of being overrun. In this scenario that is going to be the river line south of Pskov. By all means use a few sacrificial units forwards of the main defence to slow up Axis.
Then once you have a solid line established fall back slowly to successive river lines (making as much use of the terrain as possible) as and when the pressure is too much.

_____________________________

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Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.

(in reply to WingedIncubus)
Post #: 6
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/28/2017 1:21:32 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		I have played far less as Soviet than some of the others posting on here have. But that might mean I can empathise more with the difficulties. I'll post some suggestions, but more as a spur for the others to add or contradict.

i) It is important to check the fuel levels of the Panzers (i.e. select fuel in soft factors). Right now at turn 1 the panzers are full of fuel, so you have to accept they are good for another large advance on the next turn. Your current line will act as a speed bump, but you should put more into where the panzers will run short of fuel and be far from infantry on the next turn. Either the Malta or Velikaya depending on how good your opponent is - the AI is usually not great as Axis. Usually put most units where motorised are out of fuel and infantry are out of range.
ii) The best motorised corridors are across the Malta, around it through Zilupe, or North of it through Gulbene. You may want to put fewer units in a line parallel to the front along the Dvina, and more perpendicular to the front along these paths, especially when narrow. Making panzers do multiple attacks, or divert over terrain that is not clear will do more to slow them down. Any corridor of clear terrain is where motorised will want to travel. Think "corridor" instead of "frontline" or "riverline"
iii) HardLuckYetAgain is doing an excellent detailed guide on defending this area in a thread called "Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov." It provides full detail, but probably cannot be replicated as it is now published (or maybe against the AI unless it reads it too). But it will give the granular level of detail on how to make a Soviet defence that you can then adapt yourself.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/28/2017 1:59:53 PM >

(in reply to WingedIncubus)
Post #: 7
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/28/2017 2:46:22 PM   
WingedIncubus


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Joined: 10/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Another unhelpful comment - but the AI is so bad at playing Axis that I think it is difficult to get much of a game out of it. It does play a reasonable game as Soviet however so in my experience more enjoyable to play against the AI from the other side.


I understand that the AI is not up to par. However, what is the alternative? At least, the AI is there regardless of performance. A PBEM Axis player sees that as a Soviet player it is not even a contest, will offer me to resign to stop wasting his time, and with a few comments that are magical whispers to me. It's like asking a FIDE Master to play and comment the play of a 900-rated first-grader: The former will talk about endgame concepts and middle-play strategic evaluation, the latter wants to learn how to set and move the pieces, and usually does not even know how to castle.

Here in the example, you mention building fortifications with Reserve units. Might surprise you, but I don't even know the science of building fortifications in WITE, except that when left not moving they will naturally build lower levels of entrenchment each turn. It required a second-level of thinking I do not yet possess in WITE: Even after reading both the manual and the condensed ruleset, I am still at the level of wondering where I place my scattered troops on early turns.

Axis players already have it easy at the start of the game, but also have all those graphic tutorials to perfect their early advantage, explaining by and large how to break a line and exploit it, how to HQ buildup, etc. Great teaching stuff to learn to play the game on the map. What the Soviet has can be summed up by "Stick it until 1942 and run, run, run" with abstract stuff like Production, pulling all the air force to the National Reserves, etc. Well, how does that translate tactically on the map? Running east concedes both space and time to the Axis at no cost. So somewhere I must create speed bumps to give time for reinforcements to arrive. But how?

Like on my map... what I see, partly due to lack of experience and exaggerating the Axis' operational reach in T2, is that the Axis will be on the door of Pskov next turn. How the hell can I have enough time to build a decent line on the Velikaya if the enemy is there next turn, with the few units that are available? So my calculation was: Create picket line on the Dvina to slow them down enough that reinforcements arrive next turn that I may place around Pskov and along the Velikaya. However... what if the Axis panzers swerve north? Nothing is stopping the Axis on the way to Tallinn... and then I start to throw my hands up in the air.

< Message edited by Drakken -- 8/28/2017 5:13:01 PM >

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 8
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/28/2017 5:26:47 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		Units automatically build fortifications, so stack good infantry units where you want your first line of defence. Then have any spare units positioned to start building fortifications where you want your next line of defence, and so on. They dig better if they are not on 'reserve'.
Have a few units up north to protect the river line, if Axis goes that way then reinforce them - but the terrain is very heavy going so easier to defend. You cannot defend Tallinn.

(in reply to WingedIncubus)
Post #: 9
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/29/2017 12:28:57 AM   
WingedIncubus


Posts: 512
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline 		Here is the result of Axis Turn 2. Even if the German did manage to cross the Dvina it seems I managed to slow them down much more than I expected. Plus, all troops that were in the Riga pocket were routed and teleported because the pocket had been broken.

So my exercise is trying to implement your recommandations. Here what would be my plan for Soviet Turn 2, if only to build an intermediate picket fence while I build up my main line of defence at Pskov:

a) Build the main fortified line at the Pskov along the Velikiya River. This is the main point I will be bringing my reinforcements to build forts, while b) and c) below aim to bide some time
b) Units on the Dvina will retreat to form hedgehogs along corridors passed the Dvina River, their ZOC keeping them spending APs to advance toward the Malta, then the Vekiliya River.
c) A picket line will be built behind on the Malta River.
d) Another small line will be built North behind the Gauja, in case of a potential northward thrust.

- Red lines are defensive lines.
- Blue lines are available corridors toward the Velikiya river
- Green dots are possible hexes I could place lone units to harass Axis motorized units into spending APs.



< Message edited by Drakken -- 8/29/2017 12:42:16 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/29/2017 1:21:47 AM   
Ridgeway

 

Posts: 139
Joined: 2/21/2011
Status: offline 		Couple of other things to keep in mind:

1) You should be able to sealift all those units in Courland out through Ventspils to Leningrad. Then use them to help fortify either the Luga line or the Leningrad perimeter.

2) Keep track of your organizational integrity, meaning try to keep your Corps and Armies together (or use AP to reassign units).

3) Keep some mobile units (tank or motorized divisions) one hex behind the Velikaya line in Reserve mode. Especially if you pay attention to #2 above, they will usually activate and can devastate attacks across the river.

4) Swamp hexes are probably the best defensive terrain, especially against hasty panzer attacks.

5) Fortify hexes like Ostrov that can be attacked from 3+ hexes ASAP, and use a high value unit to occupy it (that, of course, is hex-based wargaming 101, circa 1977)



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Post #: 11
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/29/2017 3:27:31 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL:

4) Swamp hexes are probably the best defensive terrain, especially against hasty panzer attacks.


Concensus of the forum I believe says that. I on the other hand like to defend the open hexes a lot. Think about it for awhile and you may see why. Or just call me an idiot and move on ;-)

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RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/29/2017 3:38:58 AM   
WingedIncubus


Posts: 512
Joined: 10/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL:

4) Swamp hexes are probably the best defensive terrain, especially against hasty panzer attacks.


Concensus of the forum I believe says that. I on the other hand like to defend the open hexes a lot. Think about it for awhile and you may see why. Or just call me an idiot and move on ;-)


Because blocking the way, either it forces the enemy to attack or has to move two hexes to go around it?

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 13
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/29/2017 12:39:57 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakken


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL:

4) Swamp hexes are probably the best defensive terrain, especially against hasty panzer attacks.


Concensus of the forum I believe says that. I on the other hand like to defend the open hexes a lot. Think about it for awhile and you may see why. Or just call me an idiot and move on ;-)


Because blocking the way, either it forces the enemy to attack or has to move two hexes to go around it?


HardLuckYetAgain is unusual (in the nicest sense) in actually being determined to stop Axis motorised units at Pskow and not just delay them as can be seen from his AAR-guide. However it does mean denuding the Centre and South of units. Given this mass of Soviet units HardLuckYetAgain can make stacks of units to defend clear terrain, and needs to to stop Axis seeping through his lines. It is interesting and may even be the best strategy, but it is not conventional. And you need a strong will, and heart, to leave acres of unopposed territory between the Axis and Moscow at the start.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakken
- Blue lines are available corridors toward the Velikiya river


I noticed some of your blue lines follow rail lines through swamps etc. I know rail lines help movement in mountains, but, I think, they offer no advantage in other types of terrain for motorised units.

So I would discount the Cesis-Gulbene corridor (motorised would rather travel south and then north again) and the Jekabpils-Rezek. would better be drawn south of where it is now.

It is also very common for motorised to go east from Daugavapils and then North to Zilupe - I would have put that as one of the three main corridors.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/29/2017 1:07:10 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/30/2017 5:16:00 AM   
WingedIncubus


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Here was how I positioned my counter passed the Dvina at the end of Turn 2.

I tried to cover ground as much as possible with that I had. I feel some units are misplaced, but I wasn't able to undo their moves anymore.



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Post #: 15
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/30/2017 5:16:16 AM   
WingedIncubus


Posts: 512
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline 		And then Turn 3 comes. All I can say is... WOW.




Surely it might be because it is against the AI and the AI sucks, I admit I was expecting the Axis Panzer Group units to blow me away and reach passed the Malta. And yet, the line holded!

Surely I am missing something. Perhaps the Panzers are resting or are lacking fuel, or something like that. But that lone Paratroop in the swamp held a whole Panzer Division. And before you ask, this play without any Soviet bonus (so no Attack +1 or Defence +1).




< Message edited by Drakken -- 8/30/2017 5:28:12 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/30/2017 7:22:48 AM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		The best tactics against an Axis AI may well be completely different from those against a human opponent. Try drawing it forward into as much space as possible, then surround and eliminate. The AI is not good at covering it's flanks and doesn't understand when open space needs to be defended and when not. Like many computer games, in WITE it can suffer against masses of inferior units.

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Post #: 17
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/30/2017 12:59:58 PM   
WingedIncubus


Posts: 512
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you tyronec!

Now that contact has been made, I will retreat a few hexes in full order toward the Malta. 9th Paratroops Brigade will never hold another turn and I do not wish to risk it being surrounded. Same in Daugavpils: Now that the Dvina has been crossed, holding it is pointless.

In fact, I consider ordering the Airborne brigades to head directly East behind the Velikiya and help prepare the line.

Two more questions:

- Construction battalions: Should I build one Construction SU for each Corp HQ involved in building forts both behind the Velikiya and around Leningrad?

- That tank division in Swamp behind the Sinyaya river: Are defending tank divisions disadvantaged in swamp hexes? Should I keep it there to build until I can occupy it with an Infantry Division?

< Message edited by Drakken -- 8/30/2017 1:03:22 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/30/2017 4:57:44 PM   
No idea

 

Posts: 495
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Status: offline 		Dont try to do what you have done against a human opponent or you will regret it. The problem with playing againts AI is that it is very dumb (especially the axis one). My guess to explain why the ai has fared so bad here is that it really fears to attack across major rivers. Granted, attacking across a major river is never easy, but any human would know that against security units, during the first turns, you can make hasty attacks with your panzer units even across major rivers. Besides, you comitted two mistakes in your initial defence position, as you let the axis two bridges across the Dvina. Altough the AI didnt exploit them.

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Post #: 19
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/30/2017 6:36:03 PM   
WingedIncubus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea

Dont try to do what you have done against a human opponent or you will regret it. The problem with playing againts AI is that it is very dumb (especially the axis one). My guess to explain why the ai has fared so bad here is that it really fears to attack across major rivers. Granted, attacking across a major river is never easy, but any human would know that against security units, during the first turns, you can make hasty attacks with your panzer units even across major rivers. Besides, you comitted two mistakes in your initial defence position, as you let the axis two bridges across the Dvina. Altough the AI didnt exploit them.


So if I understand correctly, what I did wrong and that a human player would make me pay dearly for are :

a) Using SEC units as forward blockers, as they are easy targets even across major rivers
b) Not going immediately for the Malta River as a line of defense

Correct?

< Message edited by Drakken -- 8/30/2017 6:44:30 PM >

(in reply to No idea)
Post #: 20
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/30/2017 8:00:44 PM   
No idea

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakken

quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea

Dont try to do what you have done against a human opponent or you will regret it. The problem with playing againts AI is that it is very dumb (especially the axis one). My guess to explain why the ai has fared so bad here is that it really fears to attack across major rivers. Granted, attacking across a major river is never easy, but any human would know that against security units, during the first turns, you can make hasty attacks with your panzer units even across major rivers. Besides, you comitted two mistakes in your initial defence position, as you let the axis two bridges across the Dvina. Altough the AI didnt exploit them.


So if I understand correctly, what I did wrong and that a human player would make me pay dearly for are :

a) Using SEC units as forward blockers, as they are easy targets even across major rivers
b) Not going immediately for the Malta River as a line of defense

Correct?


Think about SEC units as units that can be put behind your lines so that if the enemy doesnt recon them well he might be lured into thinking that there are REAL units there. They are also good for holding the finnish no cross line, and to make the enemy lose a few MPs, but they arent real fighting units. They cant stop anything, even less during the first turns. They are just borders guards with rifles and a few machine games guns.

An axis human would have used the bridges he already had over the Dvina, losing few MPs in the process, as he wouldnt have to fight across a river but further inland, and make pockets of most of your units there. The end result would be the same if you had defended the Malta but with you having fewer units (and, in the GC, the soviet player doesnt have many units opposing AGN).

Your best option as a soviet player against a human is defending the Malta. That will slow the german player one, perhaps two turns.

(in reply to WingedIncubus)
Post #: 21
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/31/2017 2:47:45 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		If you want to hide units from recon do not leave them in Clear terrain.

Also note that the AI 'cheats'. It allows units to move through impassable terrain, move easily through bottle necks etc.

(in reply to No idea)
Post #: 22
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T3 v. AI) - 8/31/2017 11:53:51 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		Most human Axis players wont be in this situation. They'll get three or four mobile divisions across the Daugava on turn one so picketing the major river wont be an option. If given the opportunity, as in this case, I certainly would picket.
Usually the Soviet player will concentrate the bulk of his force around Ostrov on turn one. This is a choke point that is at the limit of German armor's turn two range. The German armor will often cross the Velikaya but will not be able to get behind the Soviet units. Defending in strength any further forward that that risks getting your army surrounded.
Ignore Estonia completely. If the Axis player heads that way (unlikely) he'll regret it because you can quickly build a formidable defense at Narva.
If the Axis player crosses the Daugava in strength on turn one between Daugavpols and Jekabpils you also have to defend against the possibility that he may move on Veliki Luki. In that case the city should be lightly garrisoned on turn one and the approaches checkerboarded. This is more relavant to the campaign game but if I remember rightly there are still VPs to be had East of VL in this scenario.

If I had to play the Axis side from the position in your screenshot this is what I would aim to do (depending on MPs etc).
Air recon would give me a very good estimate of your positions South of the Aiviekste river and not so good North of it. Therefore I would take the less risky option and drive straight at Pskov. The other option is to surround NW front but this would be time consuming and less certain due to FOW.
Ideally one division would cross the Velikaya at Ostrov and one would cut the rail at Petseri putting NW front out of position and probably unable to help much with the defense of Pskov next turn.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to WingedIncubus)
Post #: 23
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/31/2017 2:50:13 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakken
So if I understand correctly, what I did wrong and that a human player would make me pay dearly for are :
a) Using SEC units as forward blockers, as they are easy targets even across major rivers
Correct?


quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea

Think about SEC units as units that can be put behind your lines so that if the enemy doesnt recon them well he might be lured into thinking that there are REAL units there. They are also good for holding the finnish no cross line, and to make the enemy lose a few MPs, but they arent real fighting units. They cant stop anything, even less during the first turns. They are just borders guards with rifles and a few machine games guns.



I would say that it is not correct that NKVD units cannot be used as forward units, although I would call them "shock absorbers" or "panzer movement eaters" rather than blockers. So in addition to No idea's list I would say you can use them in a forward position.

Remember they do not have artillery (expensive to lose) and disband anyway (so no need to invest in training them up - and indeed may not be reliable for that reason to hold Finnish lines). And losing them is not a great loss in manpower terms. So they are the ultimate throw away unit. It is right to say that they cannot usually win any combat, but their morale means they have a much higher probability to retreat rather than rout. I cannot tell you how many times I have had an NKVD unit standing on a swamp next to a corridor I want my panzers to race along. But then they retreat to the next swamp hex next to the corridor and then the next one. Before you know it your panzer division has spent 20 MPs or more attacking, even if always winning, against an NKVD. So I would say the NKVD security units do have their uses on the front.

(in reply to No idea)
Post #: 24
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/31/2017 3:41:03 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		If I can reinforce the MP eaters perspective.. it does not matter if the unit is a handpicked high defender well dug in or a throw away low cost NKVD unit the MPs are the same to enter and hasty or deliberate attack. What has been pointed out that a NKVD unit in the right terrain can be very annoying. I am thinking a hasty attack leading to another ;)

I tend to deliberate in terrain and over rivers for that reason pointed out ..

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 25
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 8/31/2017 9:11:41 PM   
wallas

 

Posts: 219
Joined: 2/4/2005
Status: offline 		If you are going to zone of control litter then have your units sitting on named hexes with supply. Inspect the named location you will see some have supply/fuel/population. This may have changed I have not played in a long while but it also increase your chance of the population getting out. My comments apply versus real player not AI

< Message edited by wallas -- 9/1/2017 5:53:46 PM >

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 26
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 9/1/2017 5:18:17 AM   
WingedIncubus


Posts: 512
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline 		Here is my line behind the Malta at the end of Turn 3, with my SEC units in Swamps to annoy the Panzer Group units as much as possible.

Fortified Region in Ostrov, while as many Construction batallions as possible in every Corp HQ behind the Velikya that did not have one yet.

Should I evacuate Riga?




< Message edited by Drakken -- 9/1/2017 5:34:36 AM >

(in reply to wallas)
Post #: 27
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 9/1/2017 11:55:25 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakken
my SEC units in Swamps to annoy the Panzer Group units as much as possible.


Now that's what I am talking about!

Unless the AI is radically different from my one and only time I played it as Soviets this is what will happen. Effectively the Axis offensive will stall, and the Northern Panzer units may actually head South to find some other route through the centre. But maybe it is smarter now.

A human opponent will probably try to break through somewhere and then surround the defenders on the Malta. This why for most good human players you would have to abandon the Malta line. You can make that more difficult by getting as many hexes behind within a units ZOC. Perhaps the airborne behind the Malta line 1 hex back and the Security behind that 1 hex closer to Abrene - I think that increases the number of units that must be battled to surround Malta? At least something to avoid a corridor between the Malta line and the Velikaya line that Panzers can race through with little combat and losing MPs. Southwest of Zilupe for instance there are virtually no costless hexes to go through even when they break through the front.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakken
Should I evacuate Riga?


If the hex NorthEast of Riga was not in your control I would say definitely not. Even if they win a battle for Riga your troops will rout to safety. Because of that hex in your control it is possible it will just retreat to there and be isolated and destroyed the next turn.

So a more balanced judgement I would still say no, but accept you are sacrificing that unit (maybe). However it's high CV (urban area plus fortification plus cross major river assault) means it will take more than one infantry unit and probably a deliberate attack to take it. So in this case a worthwhile sacrifice perhaps to eat up so many MPs. If the units morale is low probably more so as there would be a greater chance it would rout away.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 9/1/2017 12:01:20 PM >

(in reply to WingedIncubus)
Post #: 28
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 9/2/2017 5:32:53 PM   
WingedIncubus


Posts: 512
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline 		Here is the situation at the beginning of Turn 4. This thread is getting more of an AAR that I thought, so feel free to move it to the After Action Report forum.

The Axis has pierced frontally through the Malta River, rather than try to surround me by going through my left flank. Most my units retreated in good order, rather than rout. Seems I have eaten enough of their MP to hinder them from reaching the Velikaya too quickly. Now is the time to retreat behind the line, except a few MP-eaters.

34th Army has arrived. I am tempted to lead them to Velikaya in reinforcement, but there are no forts right now in Velikiye Luki so maybe it would be better to put them to work there with construction battalion and a Fortified Region.

Estonia, by the way, is totally empty.



< Message edited by Drakken -- 9/2/2017 5:38:06 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 29
RE: Please critique my line of defence (Soviet T1 v. AI) - 9/2/2017 6:15:08 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakken
MP-eaters


I am taking full credit for inventing the term!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakken
Seems I have eaten enough of their MP to hinder them from reaching the Velikaya too quickly. Now is the time to retreat behind the line


Worth remembering that construction values are divided by five when next to an enemy. So worth thinking where you can prevent the Axis making contact with your best fortification lines. Once in contact their build rate shrinks rapidly. But even just another turn without can see their fortification level go up substantially again.

Also it looks like some (most?) of the Malta frontal assault was done by Panzers. If so this is also good news and something to aim for. For me (and this differs from what, I think, others call "Panzerball") the ideal panzer combat is none at all. The panzer's role is to get to somewhere nasty behind you and be so imposing that the enemy has to retreat without a fight. If the panzers are leading the fight frontally then (in my opinion) they are not tanks but StuGs or assault guns - pillboxes on wheels. Yes the Panzers will win, but the constant attrition will be ahead of replacement so by the blizzard their ToEs will be low. If you keep your troops just ahead of German infantry then the Soviet army is not fighting the whole German army but just 30 divisions of it. Couple this with aerial bombing of motorised units and by turn 18, as was the case historically, there will not really be motorised divisions of the sort Germany had at turn 1.

(in reply to WingedIncubus)
Post #: 30
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