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Panzer Division = SUPER MAN

 
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Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 9/3/2017 9:20:44 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:40:23 PM >

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 9/3/2017 10:11:27 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Losses that Panzer divisions take is laughable. No serious. It is down right ridiculous how few losses they take. Numerous occasions I will see hundreds (sometimes 1,000's) of casualties in men and equipment on the Soviet side to see 1 tank damaged IF THAT. Really? I'm like WTF. I would chalk it up as a bad roll of the dice but I'm seeing it over and over and over again. Such Minuscule loses makes Hitler so happy he doesn't need to take Viagra for that week.




You just routed one ... they lost 11 AFV total (damaged and destroyed) I admit I would expect more losses given the attack. However 147 AFV engaged. Given IRL the battle of Slominsk 1941 (a german victory) about 1600 AFV and losses of 212 .. seems pretty appropriate ratios ? Maybe another 10 AFV would be more in line with a better dice roll?

< Message edited by Crackaces -- 9/3/2017 10:46:45 PM >

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 9/3/2017 10:50:44 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:40:39 PM >

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 9/4/2017 6:19:54 AM   
Dinglir


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Status: offline 		I would have assumed that the Germans just kept thier distance from the attacking Soviets in 1941, leading to very low AFV casualties.

It would go something like this.

Soviets attacking in the distance. Fire as they approach. When they are almost close enough to start doing some damage, back the vehicle up half a kilometer and repeat the process once more.

Soviet gun optics were really bad, so artillery and tanks were unlikely to do much damage either.

The aircraft used RS-82 rockets that were absolutely horrible at hitting their targets.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 9/4/2017 7:37:38 AM   
RforRush

 

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Status: offline 		Tanks were used for breakthrough, not for defense. They couldn't just kept distance, their own guns were almost useless on long ranges.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 9/4/2017 8:52:50 AM   
Stelteck

 

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Status: offline 		Do not forget it is a game

So where damage come from in this game ?

- Combat phase.
- Retreat attrition.
- Front line attrition.

Combat phase : The soviet troops perform quite poorly during this phase at start due to low XP and low amount of heavy equipment. They do not have a lot of gun, and they do not fire and hit the ennemy very often.

Retreat attrition : Will affect german only with successfull soviet attack, so not very often. This can do little damage (retreat with a clear line of retreat with no ennemy units) to heavy damage. (Retreat though multiple hex due to overstacking and with lots of ennemy zone of control).

Front line attrition : will affect german if they are close to a soviet troops at the beginning of the german turn. Of course the soviet will loose more as soviet have low xp&morale compared to the german.
Still damaged german tank have more chance to be destroyed than most soviet ones due to the better reliability of the soviet tanks. Also if you keep a unit in contact with the ennemy, they will have issue to repair it.

In my current game i'am trying to predict ennemy looses in battle and it is quite consistent. There is only one point i think there is a problem, it is in retreat attrition:
If i rout an ennemy unit by encercling it and crushing it in the same turn (so they have nowhere to retreat and rout out of the pocket), the damage done is similar to the damage done to a unit that retreat easily of one hex though a clear path. Really light damage.
It is quite strange and there may be a bug.

So there is this issue, but otherwise the damage is quite consistent.

Of course after that, we can discuss if there is enough damage here or too much here. For example personnaly i would love having more damage and more importance in the combat phase, because the combat phase is quite fun, but it is only my personnal opinion.


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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 9/4/2017 9:12:50 AM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		It would be interesting to see the main screen losses report vs the combat report .. I would wage there are significant additional losses to a routed PzXX

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 9/5/2017 1:09:33 AM   
56ajax


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Status: offline 		Gee, tell me something I don't know.

Now when I read the history books, at the end of the blizzard many of the panzer divisions had less than 10 serviceable tanks. You don't get that in this game. That is why the Axis is able to mount an offensive in the first week (Snow) of March, instead of May/June.

Perhaps it is how the game allocates casualties and replacements ie formulas or algorithms. For instance, if a Pz div loses 5% per turn for 20 weeks then in theory it has lost 100% but perhaps much of that will have been replaced. If the same div loses nothing for 18 weeks and then 50% per turn for 2 weeks it will be an empty shell,just like in the history books.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 9/5/2017 7:08:50 AM   
Denniss

 

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Status: offline 		AFAIR these Panzer divs were constantly in action during Winter 41/42 to plug holes in the front lines and counterattacks.
If they have time to rest and refit you'll see them at good strength for 42 Offensives.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/11/2018 6:15:09 AM   
decourcy2

 

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Status: offline 		And again we are seeing German AFV strength in Russia of 8,000-12,000 in AARs in '43. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I am fine now. If an Axis fan boi comes on and says 'well, the German players are not as dumb as Hitler, so of course they are doing better.' I then punch Axis fan boi. And point out that most Soviet players are not making the bone headed moves that Stalin made either.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/11/2018 6:48:37 AM   
Denniss

 

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Status: offline 		Losses depend on gameplay. This is a fact. If one is overly aggressive, attacking even in unfavorable positions/terrain one may get high losses.
With dumb orders/errors like in Stalingrad you'll get horrendous losses.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/11/2018 9:43:15 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:40:57 PM >

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/11/2018 1:55:25 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Losses depend on gameplay. This is a fact. If one is overly aggressive, attacking even in unfavorable positions/terrain one may get high losses.
With dumb orders/errors like in Stalingrad you'll get horrendous losses.


Denniss

I “totally” disagree with your statement here. In the current rendition patch wise of WITE 1.0 the loses sustained to and of the panzer division along with loses given by said panzer division is out of porportion no matter how you play WITE. Im sorry but the hasty generalization blanketing this over is incorrect. Im 100% sure the community can and I can provide an avalanche of screenshots showing just how “super” these panzer divisions are.

Sorry for being blatant outright here but there is no sugar coating this.


I think the problem lies that devices engage randomly, which I propose engagements in reality are not so random. For example, the battle of Brody the German tanks are leading the charge and are initially quite exposed and get whacked at Dubno until Soviet leadership causes chaos. This will never happen in this game. Also the randomness of combat makes Russian antitank units not worth the price of admission when it fact antitank units absorb additional MP’s (tanks have to stop and fight or go around) and tanks become targets if they are leading the charge. I liked this from the cardboard version of WITE .Thus a fundamental problem if players compare historical results. (I am a German fanboy BTW)


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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/11/2018 1:59:20 PM   
Stelteck

 

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Status: offline 		From my multiplayer game (i'am in mid 1944), i find very hard to destroy german tanks. There is no way i can attrit the massive german tank production.
it is pointless.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/11/2018 6:43:05 PM   
elloboloco


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Status: offline 		I don't believe there is a way to 'attrit' or 'wear down' the German panzer divisions as happened during the actual campaign as they seem to suffer too few losses. I think the situation is even worse using the adjusted or actual combat values option.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/11/2018 7:33:23 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:41:11 PM >

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/11/2018 9:10:33 PM   
chaos45

 

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Status: offline 		you really cant wear down any specific german divisins in this game until you run the entire army out of replacements.......as to tanks without encirclements you will never destroy many german tanks.

Things you can do as the Soviets is keep the panzers Zoc'd as much as possible to increase fatigue and attrition losses, force them to retreat through Zoc's and multiple hexes, over rivers an such.

As to the attrition part...IDK anymore really as soviet replacements have been so degraded attrition prolly works more for Germans than Soviets at least until 1943...if you can stand the losses as the soviets tho the more germans u keep zoc'd the more attrition you cause and it adds up over the long game.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/11/2018 9:44:56 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Status: offline 		You can destroy a number of tanks by using bad weather and bodies to your advantage

Although I find it only a temporary and situational advantage which takes the shiny paint off of the AFV numbers for a short time after winter has stopped until Axis refits and rests

It can buy you a little time but not something you can use to wear down and attrition armour TOE's indefinitely and even this advantage is with the smaller and unreliable models no point in even contemplating the bigger stuff like a tiger etc those monsters are all but invincible from what I can tell so far

< Message edited by SparkleyTits -- 4/11/2018 9:46:17 PM >

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/12/2018 12:21:57 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:41:25 PM >

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/12/2018 12:25:38 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:41:38 PM >

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/12/2018 8:00:03 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

From my multiplayer game (i'am in mid 1944), i find very hard to destroy german tanks. There is no way i can attrit the massive german tank production.
it is pointless.

Winning WITE requires successfull encirclements. without them, there is no way to win.

Does anyone succeed as german in 1941 or 1942 without encirclement? No.

It's the same for the russians from mid 1943 to end war.

But as defender, knowing this point, you have to adapt your way of defence.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/16/2018 8:28:48 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elloboloco

I think the situation is even worse using the adjusted or actual combat values option.


Better CV is only cosmetic (visual) change (unless you start to change core CV values of artillery and support elements).

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/16/2018 8:34:59 AM   
morvael


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Status: offline 		Why fight against strongest, fastest German units that get so much bonuses to their morale? Focus on much weaker German infantry and his army will wither on the vine, due to lack of manpower for replacements. Panzer divisions cannot be everywhere.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/16/2018 8:37:49 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Yes, I concur they are "SUPERMEN" in the current rendition of WITE 1.0


When you reach 85+ morale and/or experience you become superman with the system that is in place. Retreat losses, attrition losses, combat losses - all are reduced to minimum values because of that. With their bonuses to NM, panzer divs remain for a very long time in the too high morale/experience region of the 0-100 scale.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/16/2018 12:46:33 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:41:52 PM >

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/16/2018 12:47:35 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:42:07 PM >

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/16/2018 6:36:37 PM   
morvael


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Status: offline 		Losses are higher in the next patch, but these things have to be done in miniscule steps. Perhaps some ceiling on effective morale/experience would be a good idea to prevent tiny losses.

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/16/2018 7:23:52 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:42:22 PM >

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/16/2018 11:37:14 PM   
delasalle

 

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Status: offline 		maybe reducing German bonuses to armored and motorized divisions could be a solution. in 1942 the bonus is +10 for panzers, +20 for ss and +25 for GD. to divide by 2 these bonuses could make these divisions more "human"

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RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN - 4/17/2018 11:51:50 AM   
GamesaurusRex


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Status: offline 		Once again Morvael is reading my mind... since he is looking at this issue.

I agree with HardLuckYetAgain, but I don't think he goes far enough. I have played the Grand Campaign scenario now for five years over and over again as the Russians versus Wheat, who is a "Master Level" Panzer Ball Player. (Through all the patch versions since 1.07.)

The one thing that is glaringly apparent is that, the standard initial morale settings, are entirely too strong in favor of the Germans in 1941-42. The Russian units are incapable of attacking or even penetrating German controlled hexes at that standard initial high differential.

IF you use the standard settings and play the game without the "extreme blizzard" and "1-1=2-1" options, the situation is made impossible, because those two options are the only settings that allow for any Russian attacks at all during 1941 winter... and without making those attacks, the Russians will suffer the well documented "snowball effect" downhill from there.

The fact is, given the current state of the game, there is no point for the Russian player to do anything other than retreat during 1941-42, except during the 41 "extreme blizzard". Using the standard morale settings and other than attacking during extreme blizzard, all Russian units smaller than Corp size are basically nothing but speed bumps that are going to get pocketed, if they stand and fight. (And here I would note that Morvael and Denniss greatly improved the game when they tried to fix the pocket "insta-death" of Russian units in the earlier patch versions.)

I have not yet given up attempting to manage the standard game settings by judicious Russian "fighting withdrawal"... but I am at the point where I have to concede that there is no "contest" here, unless you alter the initial game settings by reducing the Germans and raising the Russians. I don't know yet what a balanced change should be, but I'm guessing +5 for the Russians and -5 for the Germans as a starting point. Maybe, just maybe, this will slow the "Panzer Ball through butter"... but I'm not sure as we have not tried it yet with the latest patch.

The real problem is one of balance... since reducing the German strength in 41-42 in order to make it more reflective of reality must not go too far or it will penalize the German late game too much, while overly boosting the Russians. This is made more complex by the fact that the choice of using the "extreme blizzard" or "1-1=2-1" options completely changes the game, requiring different settings to make for a balanced game.

On the other hand, if you're entertained more by the myth of German Panzer "invinciblity"... then game on with the standard settings. Just accept that Leningrad and Moscow will be overrun in 41 and the Russians will need to run to the Urals before they can attack (unless you use the "extreme blizzard" and "1-1=2-1").

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 4/17/2018 1:24:46 PM >

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