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RE: Question about AI's use of radar

 
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RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/2/2017 2:14:19 PM   
stilesw


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From: Hansville, WA, USA
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WTF?! Where did this come from? I am "stunned" that anything negative could have been construed from DWReese's comment. I have perused many, many scenarios from the Community Pack, Standalone submissions and other contributions from the many CMANO folks. This was done to learn how things were made and how Lua worked -I have a programming background but had never seen Lua before. The idea that anyone was/is stealing or violating copyright rules is ludicrous to me. I have used many ideas from others that I found in the scenario development editor and Lua scripting created by others. I have modified many scenarios to try different things - "Deter, Detect, Defend 1962", "Changjiang Strike, 2016" and "Down Town, 1967" to name a few. The idea of posting one of these modified scenarios without giving credit to the original author never even crossed my mind.

I think that sometimes we are too "sensitive" to perceived intent instead of focusing on the actual content of posts. Let's enjoy, contribute to and, when possible, enhance this wonderful simulation and its member community.

I thank you all in the CMANO world and hope we can focus on the good.

My

-Wayne Stiles





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< Message edited by stilesw -- 9/2/2017 2:15:42 PM >

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 31
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/2/2017 2:17:28 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/8/2006
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Doug

I just did not want: "you can see how designers have copied ideas from others and incorporated them into the newer scenarios."
stand in the thread without clarification. It implies that there is rampant plagiarism among designers. This has not been my experience over the past year. I also wanted make sure newer players understand it's OK to use ideas and code from others. Just give them credit in in the briefing. Just mention the source scenario if you do not know the designer's name and all is OK. You are right. I am over sensitive to the term "copy". In many fields, it's a "four letter word" to be avoided.

Kevin

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 32
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/2/2017 2:33:11 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wVagQ_LVd4

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 9/2/2017 2:38:44 PM >


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(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 33
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/13/2017 7:46:59 PM   
MikeJ271

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 3/5/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
When you start introducing lua, and other things, many of us are almost completely lost. The ONLY WAY that I could EVER get lua to work for me is if I see the formula written in someone else's scenario, and then copy those same words into my scenario and change the name of the unit. And, all of this is just to get the unit to turn its radar on. I don't think that that is so egregious. You can't seriously be "stunned" because I want my unit's radar to be turned on.

Your concept of "stealing" or "copying" is coming from programmers' perspective. Most of us are not programmers. Most are simply game players. Most (my estimation) have real trouble with things like lua, but are too afraid to ask any questions because they will be belittled by the "unofficial bully" (not you) of the forum. They will be told to "go read this" and to not come back. Well, they can read all they want, but if they don't understand the language (lua or Chinese) it won't matter what they are reading because they don't understand it.

So, most of us try to get things to work on their own. If WE aren't successful, then ultimately WE give up. If everyone ultimately gives up, then they stop playing the game. If you read through the various threads, you will see that many different and unrelated people have indicated that lua is too far advanced for them. If WE are able to see what others have done in other scenarios to turn on the radar and to implement it into our modified scenario, then that's about as far as many of us will ever get to go. I don't think that that is a bad thing.
A very good point, which gets to the nub of my feelings about CMANO, and this forum.

In terms of the latter, I’m very reluctant to ask questions, owing to the presence of the “unofficial bully”, who you sense is just waiting to make his presence felt. (I’m catching up with the forum after a few days, and I see he’s done it again in another thread, to a new player.) And to be frank, my view is that people could be forgiven for thinking that from certain quarters, he’s regarded as a “useful idiot”, who helps to prevent people asking simple questions, even where the answer isn’t anything like obvious. I can’t think of another reason that his behaviour would be tolerated to quite the extent that it appears to be. That behaviour makes this forum quite unpleasant to read, let alone get more involved with as a contributor. Locking a thread once it's happened is pointless if the matter isn't going to be addressed.


As for CMANO itself, I’m certainly a fan, and play it more than all my other games/simulations combined - several times over. And I also like tinkering with my own scenarios or messing with published ones – all strictly for my own use.
However, CMANO still has its limitations - and sometimes these are highlighted by those same simple questions. As far as I'm concerned, in respect of some of these, the now-familiar response of “Just do it with Lua” is non sequitur. Having been involved in networking and suchlike, I’m far from computer illiterate, but to put it bluntly, I don’t know coding (any language), and have never been able to get my head around it. Therefore, until or unless someone does what I’m trying to do, or points out how to do it on this forum, I’ll continue to get stuck. But as already noted, I certainly won’t be asking how to do certain things on here anytime soon, and that’s principally because of the attitude of some of the forum users.

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 34
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/13/2017 8:18:48 PM   
thewood1

 

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To the lua point...lua was put in so you could get around limitations. I am fairly tired of people complaining about lua as an answer. Every game has limitations, the devs continue to add features to an already feature-rich game, they haven't charged a thing for almost all of them, and lua is there got get us players by. What more do you want from the devs? Would you prefer lua be removed? They could have left it out and you would just have to wait on the development cycle.

As to being a bully, don't care what you think. There are a few basic types of people on this board...

1) Just regular players looking for content, discussion, etc.
2) Players helping players...people putting an effort into answering questions and showing where to get info
3) People who contribute a lot of content and keep the game exciting
4) And then there are the guys like you and a few others that never contribute, never post, never help, etc. But want their opinion suddenly heard.

and...

5) Time wasters...POS, ballyhoo and a few other from down memory lane. Buy the game, don't want to learn it, but expect #2 above and the devs to answer questions over and over again, even after being answered multiple times. Ballyhoo had one particular question answered three times in two different threads. He dragged six people into that swirling hole of a thread. He outright stated he didn't like to read and use any of the documentation. That first thread started out with a couple of us trying to help him. He wasn't even reading the responses and then started an entirely new thread asking the exact same question. He never even looked at then hot key list.

I really don't care what someone like you, who sure has the time to throw your opinion around but not step into help a new player answer a question, thinks. How many times have you helped a new player? Lists the posts for me. That thread went on for three days and not one of you guys who posted thinking I am some kind of bully tried to help. If you have the patience to help someone who won't read the manual or even look at a freakin hot key list, then man up and do it. Otherwise, I am not sure why you even bother posting.

btw...for every non-helpful person who suddenly had the time to post their concerns about how new players might perceive the board, I have two PMs thanking me and asking me to keep doing what I am doing. So before you guys start melting or posting at the bottom of old threads, step up and help new players. There are three or four threads where new players are asking stuff. Maybe I'll see you there, but I doubt it.

(in reply to MikeJ271)
Post #: 35
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/14/2017 2:19:52 AM   
kevinkins


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Retracted upon further reflection. Tamas sums it up below.

Kevin

< Message edited by kevinkin -- 9/14/2017 10:53:49 AM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 36
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/14/2017 9:22:44 AM   
Tamas

 

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Being a lurker here, I understand if somebody has problem with thewood1's style. It might not make people feel welcome.

However, as I can recall, he has been a great help to the community. If you think his voice is the loudest when it comes to answering questions on the forum, and you don't like his tone, maybe a solution would be for others in the community to step up as well, and help out.

From thewood1, I'd like to ask a bit more patience and courtesy. Yes, I am aware new players tend to ask things that seem blatantly trivial for an experienced player, and things that are already well documented, but new blood is a precious commodity in our hobby, and they should feel welcome.

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 37
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/14/2017 8:16:33 PM   
Randomizer


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Agree with Tamas, thewood1 is a net contributor to the community and while some may occasionally be offended by his style, I would argue that he has added much and subtracted little. On anonymous Internet forums like this, people are too quick to take offence when called out for counter-productive posts, topic spamming and sometimes what can only be classified as shear stupidity. Thewood1 helps keep all of us who care about the community a bit more honest.

-C

(in reply to Tamas)
Post #: 38
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/15/2017 9:21:23 AM   
MikeJ271

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 3/5/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Agree with Tamas, thewood1 is a net contributor to the community and while some may occasionally be offended by his style, I would argue that he has added much and subtracted little. On anonymous Internet forums like this, people are too quick to take offence when called out for counter-productive posts, topic spamming and sometimes what can only be classified as shear stupidity. Thewood1 helps keep all of us who care about the community a bit more honest.

-C

A few points:

a) Other people also provide help. They manage it without being aggressive and rude. And if they can do it…

b) Far from writing this off as how some people may “occasionally be offended by his style”, the fact is that you and I have no idea how many others don’t bother using the forum because of this type of behaviour. Furthermore, we also have no idea how many people considering buying what is an expensive game, look at the forum beforehand as part of the decision-making process – and then decide not to bother. You may think there aren’t any, but you probably shouldn’t bet your house on that being the case. If what would be regarded as the most likely source of online support gives an impression of being dominated by a somewhat protectionist, elitist clique, it shouldn’t be a surprise if that actually puts folk off altogether.
And if that possibility doesn’t concern regular forum users, the perception is arguably correct anyway.

c) In line with the previous point, the guy you “agreed” with also suggested that the forum member in question might want to try moderating his behaviour a bit, to hopefully avoid putting new players off. That was quite an important part of the post.


One other thing about this: For me, easily the biggest weakness of CMANO is the supporting literature. Like many other applications where there’s been a relatively rapid development process, the documentation simply hasn’t kept pace. And while there’s always going to be a resource trade-off between updating software or documentation, the former is usually going to win that battle because it’s understandably more “fun” to do, and, given the commercial potential, more lucrative.

But that does not support the new user experience. Putting all the existing material in one place helps, but IMO only to a (very) limited extent. Simply referring new players to all of the addenda, FAQ’s and additional articles, and especially the now dated-in-parts main manual, isn’t addressing the fundamental issue; new players won’t be aware of which bits are still current and which have since been superseded.
Using the “steep learning curve” line to justify a bad attitude doesn’t wash under any circumstances, but the situation regarding the documentation lag makes having a go at new players for not getting it straight away even more out of order.

(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 39
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/15/2017 10:48:15 AM   
thewood1

 

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So, again complaining about people complaining. I have been in half a dozen threads helping some people and haven't seen you there once. Take a look at the guy who started this all. He can't even figure out how to use function keys. He wouldn't even google an answer for himself without being told. He thinks this is some kind of giant help desk. Again where were you? Formulating some forum response at the bottom of an old thread? He still hasn't figured it out. Jump in there and help. Let's see if you can get through to him. I'll take you a little more seriously if you would actually do something instead of just whining about it.

And there aren't a ton of people helping out. There are maybe half a dozen who consistently try to effectively help. . And by helping, I don't mean accusing people of plagiarizing.

(in reply to MikeJ271)
Post #: 40
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/15/2017 10:53:48 AM   
thewood1

 

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btw, I am being kind to that compared to some emails and PMs I am getting. There are a number of people incredibly frustrated with players that won't help themselves.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 41
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/15/2017 1:29:02 PM   
kevinkins


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I stand by the assertion made above that there is not rampant plagiarism by designers. Contrary to accusing, I pushed back against even a small reference to it. I also reminded the forum that it’s a common courtesy to give credit when borrowing others ideas. What’s there to disagree with? I thought this was cleared up two weeks ago.

Respectfully,
Kevin

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 42
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/15/2017 2:25:50 PM   
thewood1

 

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Hmmmm...don't remember mentioning any names.

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 43
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/15/2017 2:44:09 PM   
kevinkins


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Did you really have to? Do you agree that this has been cleared up and we can move on?

Respectfully,
Kevin

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 44
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/15/2017 2:53:52 PM   
thewood1

 

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No, I don't agree it was cleared up. You want to come in and complain about me, take a look at the blow up you created in this very thread for absolutely no reason. You can't even stand behind your own comments...or did someone else delete your comment above?

Again, step up and help in the Ballyhoo thread. Get him to figure it out. You do that and I'll stay out.

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 45
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/15/2017 3:15:16 PM   
kevinkins


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I will apologize for "blowing up" the thread, if that's what happened. I believe I sufficiency explained my reason for side tracking since I felt the issue of "copying" was important to clarify immediately. Next time, I will start a new thread to bring up important side issues. Appears that is the generally recognize procedure.

Respectfully,
Kevin

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 46
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/19/2017 8:50:34 AM   
DWReese

 

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From: Miami, Florida
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Why don't we try this......if YOU (thewood1) don't like what some poor poster writes, or if YOU think that what they wrote is beneath you because it is just taking up space, then why don't YOU simply refrain from responding to it?

There are enough people out here who will be glad to help, and they will help ANYONE, without giving them attitude. It doesn't have to be YOU to tell them how lazy or stupid that they are. YOU should just simply not respond.

On the topic of lua, no one wants to spend a whole day trying to read a manual (that is spotty at best on this topic) to learn how to turn the radars on for a specific unit at a specific time, when they can simply ask more experienced players. Many of us WERE ORIGINALLY THAT GUY, and now that we know how to do it, so WE will be glad to help others out by solving their problem for them.

YOU, on the other hand, are very capable of actually answering the question, but instead, YOU like to berate, or belittle others for "not reading" or "not knowing." YOU actually spend more time and energy implying that people are stupid and lazy, when you could just simply answer their question. This must be some kind of personality disorder that you have because it is weird behavior.

So, personally, I really would prefer that YOU don't ever respond to any of my questions, and I'm sure that others probably feel the same way. Because for every one of the BULLIES (like you) out there, there are are 20 people (myself included) who actually want to help ANYONE that desires help, and none of those people ever berate, chastise, or bully anyone. That is your whole game and no one wants to be addressed in the sullied manner that you address people.

So, please refrain from EVER responding to anything that I EVER write, and I will be just fine. I don't ever need, or ever want you to respond to me on ANYTHING. Conversely, I won't be responding to you, either.

Doug


(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 47
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/19/2017 11:12:44 AM   
thewood1

 

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Holy crap...really? After that disaster of a thread going on in tech support about teaching the basics of copying and pasting, you have the gall to complain about people helping you. You need to take a big long look in the mirror to figure out if you just plain have the computer competence to play this game. I noted you are finally reading the manual. It took you how many posts to figure that maybe you should go back and do it.

It is incredibly selfish of you not do something basic like read the manual or all the information you are given before generating a 20 post thread in which 3-4 people have spent time helping you. No issues asking about getting the picture sets or functions keys to work, but look at how many times it had to be explained to you. I still suspect you still don't know what the Fn key is on your computer. There is some basic PC knowledge needed to play the game. You don't seem to have ability or don't seem willing to learn it on your own.

As I said multiple times before, I love helping people who will help themselves. You are a very selfish person who's first reaction to playing the game is come in and start a 20-post thread with 3-4 other players trying to help you. Let's breakdown that current thread. You were told 3-4 times how to copy and paste PLUS given a document that explains in very great detail how to do it. Yet the thread went on a good portion of the day with your meandering replies. I suggest looking through the forum at your threads, the questions you asking, how long its taking for you to comprehend, if at all. Then look at other threads of people asking for help or having questions, especially from new players. Do you see them asking the same questions over and over again. The forum participants are putting a lot of work into ONE person who just plain seems incapable of helping himself.

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 48
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/19/2017 11:29:33 AM   
thewood1

 

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btw, I went back and on other thread where you asked for help copying and pasting...yes, I know, a shock, you have two threads on the same topic...and checked that I had posted the detailed instructions because the other forum disrupter POS was struggling with it. That doc has pictures and everything. I mean detailed pictures of directories, files, etc. I am suspecting you never looked at it. Shocking, I know.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 49
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/19/2017 12:32:08 PM   
DWReese

 

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From: Miami, Florida
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Thanks for proving my point.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 50
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/19/2017 1:14:08 PM   
thewood1

 

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You're welcome

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 51
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/19/2017 9:38:55 PM   
Sigma8510

 

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At some risk, I will say that I don't really enjoy coming to the forum much lately. No matter how much I want to catch up on the latest and greatest. Not much fun finding the nuggets of gold among everything you have to wade through. IMO.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 52
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/19/2017 11:43:17 PM   
thewood1

 

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Well, I'm sure I'll bump into you in the threads where new players are asking for some help...oh wait, nevermind.

(in reply to Sigma8510)
Post #: 53
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/20/2017 2:12:19 AM   
Sigma8510

 

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I wasn't really directing that at anyone in particular... Just stating my opinion. Wow

< Message edited by jbaxter1964 -- 9/20/2017 3:00:09 AM >

(in reply to Sigma8510)
Post #: 54
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/20/2017 6:04:38 AM   
thewood1

 

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Joined: 11/27/2005
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Really?...at the bottom of a dead thread. Well I was.

(in reply to Sigma8510)
Post #: 55
RE: Question about AI's use of radar - 9/20/2017 2:13:54 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Jebbus Marie and the Carpenter stop already! Nobody cares.

M

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(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 56
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