Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters

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Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/10/2017 12:48:26 AM

LoBlo

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Interesting interview from two F35 and F22 pilots about what it feels like to fly a 5th Gen fighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTgDTC8_PM0&index=5&list=WL&t=635s

These guys are trying to say a lot without saying anything. Interesting comment about the F22 from the 2nd pilot that its kinematics being the least of its most important aspects and also how these platforms have the "F" designation for a fighter but shouldn't be viewed as that.

Wonder what's so revolutionary. Seems like they are trying to describe the aspects of such a heightened level of situational awareness that the platforms are really air marshalls rather than fighters.

I thought it was interesting to here the perspectives.

lb

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/10/2017 5:19:47 AM

ExNusquam

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Lt. Col. Berke has a great lecture called "5th Generation Experience" which goes into a bit more detail about what 5th-Gen means and what it affects.

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/10/2017 2:33:18 PM

mikmykWS

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Good stuff. Thanks for posting!

Mike

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/10/2017 11:20:45 PM

LoBlo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam

Lt. Col. Berke has a great lecture called "5th Generation Experience" which goes into a bit more detail about what 5th-Gen means and what it affects.

That was an interesting presentation.

Another link from that YouTube had was an interesting debate from Mr. Berke vs Pierre Sprey, one of the F35s most vocal critics.

https://youtu.be/1Pgiq-TlmSo

It's a one sided debate in my opinion. Sprey continues to make grossly oversimplified generalizations which are not founded. "The airplane doesn't work?, Why? Because it's broken? Why? Because it's no good. Why? Because I said so". Berke appears to be the only person that's in the know and directly refutes Sprey assertions with direct facts that makes Sprey look like a poorly informed simpleton.

I'm still trying to conceptualize what Berke is trying to communicate about what's so revolutionary. Seems like the multi spectrum awareness, fusion, and situational awareness, probably helped by the F35 helmet display, that gangs such a viewpoint.

I think we in the gaming community gets so accustomed to sensor fusion and the all-seeing eye that we forget that these are just made up for playability. The real fog of war and difficulty with putting the total picture all together is much more difficult and if we were to truly experience what it takes to fuse all the data sources for a clear view, we would complain and label the game 'unplayable'.

Does command have some sort of way to represent 5th gen awareness to the game?

< Message edited by LoBlo -- 9/12/2017 7:18:03 PM >

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/12/2017 12:05:17 AM

ExNusquam

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I've seen the "debate" before. I made it about 45 seconds into Sprey speaking before I turned it off.

To understand what's so revolutionary, I highly encourage you to check out Patterns of Conflict by Boyd. One of the first slides:

quote:

Action:
Exploit operations and weapons that:
�Generate a rapidly changing environment (quick/clear observations, orientation and decisions, fast-tempo, fast transient maneuvers, quick kill)
�Inhibit an adversary�s capacity to adapt to such an environment (cloud or distort his observations, orientation, and decisions and impede his actions)
Idea:
Simultaneously compress own time and stretch-out adversary time to generate a favorable mismatch in time/ability to shape and adapt to change
Goal
Collapse adversary�s system into confusion and disorder causing him to over and under react to activity that appears simultaneously menacing as well as ambiguous,chaotic, or misleading.

This is how the US plans to fight it's next conventional war, and the F-35 is really the ultimate embodiment of these ideas. Some quick bullets...

1. VLO: This serves two purposes: provides the F-35 with decision time/space, allowing to to make better decisions, and it reduces the adversary's ability to observe the F-35.
2. Multiple Local Sensors: I can't think of any other airplane that has an AESA radar, 720� IRST, long-range EO/IR and a world class ESM/SIGINT system. These systems fulfill the "quick/clear observations" requirement.
3. Local Sensor Fusion: The capability to blend all of these sensors into a single trackfile eliminates the need for an operator to do this manually. Instead of comparing azimuths between an FCR/RWR to classify a threat, the operator can immediately be thinking about what that threat means and how to counter it.
4. Access/Common Operating Picture (COP): The ability to pass the local sensor fusion into the network and receive other aircraft's information enables F-35's to rapidly focus on adversary weaknesses.

The F-22 is fundamentally similar, except it's missing the IRST and the LR EO/IR systems. When Lt. Col. Berke talks about contributions to the battlespace, he's talking about how the first 3 bullets build to the 4th - a platform has to have useful data to offer the picture ; VLO enables physical access, sensors enable observation and local fusion gives a platform useful data to contribute. Beyond contributions to the COP, there's a whole range of missions that a 5th Gen platform can complete within a given ATO. For example a single 5th gen fighter might be tasked with a strike mission, but it can also offer targeting data to geographically separate AAW shooters, provide in-band EW support for other packages and even do AAW on it's own. This is phenomenal, when a few decades ago even if platforms could do multiple missions (i.e. a Hornet can do AAW/Strike/SEAD, etc), they were rarely tasked with more than one mission per sortie. Red Flag reports have the F-35's staying in the airspace to support other aircraft after their primary strike is complete.

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/12/2017 12:53:07 AM

thewood1

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This is the first thread that has me starting to understand "5th gen" and the capabilities that people have been saying differentiates the F-35 from other aircraft.

One question...is the E-3 being updated to support the new capabilities of the 5th gen aircraft, including CEC?

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/13/2017 4:19:01 AM

LoBlo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

This is the first thread that has me starting to understand "5th gen" and the capabilities that people have been saying differentiates the F-35 from other aircraft.

One question...is the E-3 being updated to support the new capabilities of the 5th gen aircraft, including CEC?

That's a good question. My layman's understanding of AEW is that they operate in the RF spectrum as oppose to the EO/IRST that the F35 does.

< Message edited by LoBlo -- 9/14/2017 1:01:49 AM >

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/13/2017 1:30:48 PM

wodin

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I've heard or read that the F35 is a big pile of poo..correct or not?

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/13/2017 2:00:31 PM

thewood1

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Let me clarify my question...

The E-2C is being upgraded to the E-2D. A big part of that is to support 5th gen aircraft like the F-35 to be part of the fusion senspr network. That includes upgraded CEC capabilities supporting Aegis and AIM-120D.

Is the E-3 of the Air Force going to go through the same process? I can't find anything more than mere mentions of potentially upgrading the E-3.

To Wodin...it depends who you talk to. I think anyone who thinks its just a pile a poo is probably not trying hard enough to understand how the F-35 and F-22 are part of the greater combat network. Now if you don't believe in the fused combat network, well, that is a different debate. If you think the F-35 isn't worth the money, that again is a different debate.

I will say this. Some articles slam the navy and air force for being complacent. But when they are being incredibly innovative, those same critics jump up and admonish them for not doing stuff the traditional way. My opinion is the services are finally preparing for the next war, not the last one.

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/13/2017 2:43:25 PM

Gunner98

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quote:

My opinion is the services are finally preparing for the next war, not the last one

You could argue that they are doing more than that - they are shaping the next war similar to the way the Dreadnaught shaped naval warfare for the following 50 years.

B

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/13/2017 3:03:53 PM

thewood1

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The most interesting aspect of the whole thing is the F-35 becomes a centerpiece of any major attack. Its ability to coordinate and take advantage of the network around it seems to be pretty game changing. I think most people WAY underestimate the CEC capabilities that the US Navy has been slowly deploying since the mid-1990s. The F-35 was kind of like the last missing piece.

My understanding is that the entire fusion concept, including CEC, still has issues integrating 4th gen technology into the network effectively. It is the main focus of a lot of the spending.

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/13/2017 3:49:16 PM

Tailhook

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I've heard or read that the F35 is a big pile of poo..correct or not?

Not. The program was poorly run for many, many years which gets it a lot of criticism, but the end result is truly incredible.

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/13/2017 9:42:57 PM

ExNusquam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I've heard or read that the F35 is a big pile of poo..correct or not?

Did you watch any of the videos linked at the top of the thread, where professionals talk about the airplane?

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/13/2017 9:50:53 PM

ExNusquam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
My understanding is that the entire fusion concept, including CEC, still has issues integrating 4th gen technology into the network effectively. It is the main focus of a lot of the spending.

This is obviously the case, and is why a huge amount of effort is being spent on making the platforms play nice together. You'll note that one of Lt. Col Berke's credentials was that he worked on 4th-Gen integration. The Red Flag debriefs above emphasize that when you have 4th-gen assets working together with 5th gen, both sides benefit hugely. Getting this integration to work is both a technology and doctrine problem. Technologically, the assets have to talk to each other somehow, either platform-to-platform, via a C2 asset like an AWACS, or something like an E-11A. Doctrine (and tactics) need to be developed to ensure that the platforms play well together and are properly built into a scripted campaign or a dynamic ATO. The F-117 suffered from it's compartmentalization early (Panama) and it wasn't until the scripted Desert Storm campaign that it was considered part of a greater whole.

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/13/2017 10:22:07 PM

thewood1

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https://www.nap.edu/read/11605/chapter/13#255

Even though its 10 years old, this book is pretty good for getting the big picture of how all this fits together. This chapter lays out the major assets, their roles in the network combat environment, and the plans for those assets. Just interesting to see what the plan was in 2007 for the network and the F-35.

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/14/2017 1:02:34 AM

LoBlo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I've heard or read that the F35 is a big pile of poo..correct or not?

Dude? Did you even watch those videos?

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RE: Interesting interview about the 5th Gen fighters - 9/14/2017 1:20:04 AM

LoBlo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Let me clarify my question...

The E-2C is being upgraded to the E-2D. A big part of that is to support 5th gen aircraft like the F-35 to be part of the fusion senspr network. That includes upgraded CEC capabilities supporting Aegis and AIM-120D.

Is the E-3 of the Air Force going to go through the same process? I can't find anything more than mere mentions of potentially upgrading the E-3.

To Wodin...it depends who you talk to. I think anyone who thinks its just a pile a poo is probably not trying hard enough to understand how the F-35 and F-22 are part of the greater combat network. Now if you don't believe in the fused combat network, well, that is a different debate. If you think the F-35 isn't worth the money, that again is a different debate.

I will say this. Some articles slam the navy and air force for being complacent. But when they are being incredibly innovative, those same critics jump up and admonish them for not doing stuff the traditional way. My opinion is the services are finally preparing for the next war, not the last one.

I see. I didn't understand the question. No idea myself.

I agree with the statement that the US services are finally looking back toward facing a major power. For the last 50 years conflicts have been big bullies pushing around little countries, like the USA v Vietnam/Iraq, Russia v Afghanistan/Ukraine/Georgia, UK v Argentina, etc.

Speaks to larger pictures of where military conflicts are trending. Now that information distribution is pervasive, the images and realities of war losses are instantaneously seen and accessible to the general public of industrialized nations.
War horrors are no longer easily hidden or covered up, it appears that as the publics become more aware of these realities the trend of most of the industrial world is to abhor losses. There's still the question of the big bullies pushing around the little guys (ie Russia gobbling nations, China strong arming SE Asia, US military incursions into the Middle East), minor powers against minor powers, and internal power struggles (like the Middle East).

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