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Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 12:17:40 AM

KitsuneKojima

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I was browsing the Cold War database and now I am wondering: is there any scenario that depicts the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

It would be very interesting to replay those events from the historical point of view, and also I think it is fairly easy to design it. I am going to test myself in scenario design soon and I think I will try to create something like that, but I was just curious If there is similar scenario already in existence.

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 12:26:45 AM

HalfLifeExpert

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I'm sure it's possible to do, but wouldn't be too interesting from a gameplay perspective.

You launch the handful of B-29s from Tinian, wait for them to reach Hiroshima/Nagasaki, and drop the bomb, then fly back.

(in reply to KitsuneKojima)

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 12:31:31 AM

stilesw

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I have not seen such yet but you could probably put something together using the Cold War Data Base (CWDB). It does have U.S. aircraft, surface ships and nuclear weapons from that era.

I believe that the CMANO development team is in the very, very early speculate stages of (possibly) creating a WWII scenario environment. However, I wouldn't expect any public release of that (if it happens) any time soon.

-Wayne Stiles

(in reply to KitsuneKojima)

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 12:37:27 AM

KitsuneKojima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HalfLifeExpert

I'm sure it's possible to do, but wouldn't be too interesting from a gameplay perspective.

You launch the handful of B-29s from Tinian, wait for them to reach Hiroshima/Nagasaki, and drop the bomb, then fly back.

Somehow, I find it interesting. But I am not sure why there is no Mark-1 loadout in B-29 Superfortress loadout options. The first avaliable is Mark-3. Mark-1 is in the weapons database though.

EDIT: Maybe in a different database?

< Message edited by KitsuneKojima -- 9/15/2017 12:44:46 AM >

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 12:44:57 AM

Owllord

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You can change the weapons on the plane in the editor, so I guess that shouldn't be a problem.

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 1:08:01 AM

KitsuneKojima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owllord

You can change the weapons on the plane in the editor, so I guess that shouldn't be a problem.

You mean you actually can set custom loadouts? I am trying to do this in the editor now, but I guess I'm too unexperienced to succeed.

(in reply to Owllord)

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 1:20:10 AM

ultradave

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Mark-3 is the weapon dropped on Nagasaki, in spite of the DB saying 1949-50. The drop and detonation heights were close. The yield of the Mark 3 was a bit bigger by about 5KT, but that's probably not enough to matter too much in game.

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 1:28:07 AM

KitsuneKojima

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I realised that, but first I wanted to remodel Hiroshima bombing as close to reality as possible. Anyway, which aircraft has Mark-1 in its possible payload? Because if there isn't any, I see no reason for this weapon to exist in DB (except for the future developement and informational purposes).

EDIT: I guess it is still in developement, since according to Baloogan wiki there is no aircraft that has Mark-1 in its possible payload. The same is written about Mark-3 though (and it actually is available), so I hope that it will change soon. But I guess for now I must forget about the scenario and wait for some more updates in the future.

< Message edited by KitsuneKojima -- 9/15/2017 1:41:54 AM >

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 1:47:03 AM

thewood1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KitsuneKojima

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owllord

You can change the weapons on the plane in the editor, so I guess that shouldn't be a problem.

You mean you actually can set custom loadouts? I am trying to do this in the editor now, but I guess I'm too unexperienced to succeed.

Look up custom configs in the manual. Around page 82.

(in reply to KitsuneKojima)

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 2:00:26 AM

KitsuneKojima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

quote:

ORIGINAL: KitsuneKojima

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owllord

You can change the weapons on the plane in the editor, so I guess that shouldn't be a problem.

You mean you actually can set custom loadouts? I am trying to do this in the editor now, but I guess I'm too unexperienced to succeed.

Look up custom configs in the manual. Around page 82.

I just cracked a little smile seeing your post with manual page included :). But thank you very much nonetheless, though it seems like a complicated stuff and some work with text files. I will probably try it sometime soon.

Anyways, manual is my best friend, right? :)

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 2:00:56 AM

HalfLifeExpert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ultradave

Mark-3 is the weapon dropped on Nagasaki, in spite of the DB saying 1949-50. The drop and detonation heights were close. The yield of the Mark 3 was a bit bigger by about 5KT, but that's probably not enough to matter too much in game.

Yes, from what I understand, the Mark 3 is basically the full production variant of Fat Man, the plutonium bomb dropped on Nagasaki. The three bombs set off in 1945 (Trinity, Little Boy and Fat Man), from what I understand, were basically prototype devices that were deployed once they were ready.

What might be more interesting in terms of gameplay, if we are sticking with B-29s and the early A-bombs, are the following what ifs:

-What if the US had attacked the Chinese in 1950/51 as MacArthur wanted to do?

-What if Operation Unthinkable had been launched? Here, Little Boy and Fat Man would be dropped on ether Moscow, or the forward formations of the Red Army in Germany. This could actually be a pretty interesting challenge, as it might take a serious effort to get the B-29s over Moscow to drop Little Boy and Fat Man.

-What if the First Berlin Crisis in 1948 had escalated to war? With this, you will probably need to use A-bombs to stop the advance of the Red Army, irradiating Europe for decades in the process.

Come to think of it, the logistics of the Berlin Airlift combined with tense standoffs and skirmishes could made for a very interesting scenario, I don't have the skills though, someone should create that!

< Message edited by HalfLifeExpert -- 9/15/2017 2:07:33 AM >

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 2:06:17 AM

KitsuneKojima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HalfLifeExpert

quote:

ORIGINAL: ultradave

Mark-3 is the weapon dropped on Nagasaki, in spite of the DB saying 1949-50. The drop and detonation heights were close. The yield of the Mark 3 was a bit bigger by about 5KT, but that's probably not enough to matter too much in game.

Yes, from what I understand, the Mark 3 is basically the full production variant of Fat Man, the plutonium bomb dropped on Nagasaki. The three bombs set off in 1945 (Trinity, Little Boy and Fat Man), from what I understand, were basically prototype devices that were deployed once they were ready.

I'm not sure about that. According to wikipedia, they are different, for example the Mark-1 is a "gun type uranium weapon", and Mark-3 is "plutonium implosion weapon". I'm not an expert but that sounds pretty different. But I agree that at that point all of them were more or less prototypes.

EDIT: Thank you HalfLifeExpert, cool ideas!

< Message edited by KitsuneKojima -- 9/15/2017 2:07:55 AM >

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 2:12:54 AM

HalfLifeExpert

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Yes, Fat Man was a "plutonium implosion weapon". So was the Trinity test bomb. The personnel of the Manhattan project were confident enough in the Uranium Gun Type bomb that became Little Boy that they felt a test was not required. They were less confident about the Plutonium implosion design, hence the Trinity test.

Fat Man was actually more destructive that Little Boy, but it did not hit Nagasaki directly, it missed its mark, which is why Hiroshima had somewhat more fatalities.

The Mark 3 isn't a carbon copy of Fat Man, but rather an improvement on the design that is doable for mass production enough for a serious atomic arsenal that can lay waste to the Soviet Population centers. It is very much true that once Japan surrendered, the only targets anyone had in mind for Atomic Bombs were Soviet cities.

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 2:13:38 AM

kevinkins

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Probably only a scenario for one's personal sandbox. However, I can imagine a "what if" scenario whereby the B29s have to be escorted due to the threat of unexpected Japanese interceptors coming out of some ahistorical reserve. What ifs are fun to play and design. Actually, they are the core of Command.

Kevin

(in reply to thewood1)

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 2:15:41 AM

Owllord

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That's right, KK. You can add custom mounts and ammunition to units. I don't have the game open right now (on my phone), but you will want to click on the weapons record button on the right side while having the unit selected and then under the current bomb loadout add the desired ammunition. Don't forget to delete the default bomb afterwards.

< Message edited by Owllord -- 9/15/2017 2:20:43 AM >

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 2:23:47 AM

HalfLifeExpert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Probably only a scenario for one's personal sandbox. However, I can imagine a "what if" scenario whereby the B29s have to be escorted due to the threat of unexpected Japanese interceptors coming out of some ahistorical reserve. What ifs are fun to play and design. Actually, they are the core of Command.

Kevin

Yes indeed. Plus, in reference to my Operation Unthinkable Moscow Strike suggestion,I just did a quick range calculation, and the B-29 most certainly did have the range to get to Moscow from an airbase in Southeast England or Western France, but the big difference between the Moscow Strike and the actual attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be that most of the Journey would be over enemy territory with an intact air force and plenty of AA guns, whereas the route to drop the bombs on Japan was largely over oceans that were mostly under Allied control, and against an enemy with very limited air defense capabilities.

Also, the P-51D Mustang might not have the range to escort the B-29s all the way to Moscow unless they were forward deployed in Western Germany. I don't know if such a capability existed in early summer 1945. EDIT: Some rough calculations tell me that the Mustang probably did not have nearly enough of a range to get to Moscow, even from the best case scenario of an airbase at the Elbe River, that is unless the Mustang pilots volunteer for a one way mission. Even so, an airbase on the Elbe would have a very hard time, as it would be under 24/7 threat from Red Army ground forces and artillery fire.

THis is why I think an atomic attack on Moscow during an 'Unthinkable War' would be more interesting than the actual atomic attacks on Japan.

Also, "Unthinkable War" is the term I use for a hypothetical clash between the Soviets and the West within the five years between the collapse of the Third Reich and the start of the Korean War. Basically a Cold War gone hot with predominantly WWII weapons and platforms.

< Message edited by HalfLifeExpert -- 9/15/2017 2:39:39 AM >

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 3:54:22 AM

KitsuneKojima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owllord

That's right, KK. You can add custom mounts and ammunition to units. I don't have the game open right now (on my phone), but you will want to click on the weapons record button on the right side while having the unit selected and then under the current bomb loadout add the desired ammunition. Don't forget to delete the default bomb afterwards.

You are right, Owllord, but sadly, the mark-1 is not on the list. At least not for B-29.

(in reply to Owllord)

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 5:33:32 AM

Owllord

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I'm not home right now, but I'll try to have a look this evening if you can wait that long.

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 2:31:48 PM

Owllord

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Mh, seems like you cannot add it via Lua either. If you filter all possible weapons records by ID, 811 (Mark-1) simply doesn't display. Maybe you should post about this in the CWDB thread. Sorry that I couldn't be of more help.

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/15/2017 8:01:58 PM

KitsuneKojima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owllord

Mh, seems like you cannot add it via Lua either. If you filter all possible weapons records by ID, 811 (Mark-1) simply doesn't display. Maybe you should post about this in the CWDB thread. Sorry that I couldn't be of more help.

No problem. Thank you for your time!

EDIT: Can you tell me where is this CWDB thread?

< Message edited by KitsuneKojima -- 9/15/2017 8:11:03 PM >

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/16/2017 12:04:51 AM

ultradave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HalfLifeExpert

The Mark 3 isn't a carbon copy of Fat Man, but rather an improvement on the design that is doable for mass production enough for a serious atomic arsenal that can lay waste to the Soviet Population centers. It is very much true that once Japan surrendered, the only targets anyone had in mind for Atomic Bombs were Soviet cities.

Right, an "improved" or production version but the Nagasaki weapon had an estimated yield of 21KT and the Mark 3 in the database is listed as 20KT. The weapon is, however, the same design.

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/16/2017 12:31:37 AM

Owllord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KitsuneKojima

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owllord

Mh, seems like you cannot add it via Lua either. If you filter all possible weapons records by ID, 811 (Mark-1) simply doesn't display. Maybe you should post about this in the CWDB thread. Sorry that I couldn't be of more help.

No problem. Thank you for your time!

EDIT: Can you tell me where is this CWDB thread?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3436158&mpage=21

Here you go!

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/28/2017 7:34:11 PM

Ping Jockey

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Although the Hiroshima mission went pretty much according to plan, the mission on August 9th was a Charlie Foxtrot.

The strike aircraft ("Bock's Car") was supposed to rendezvous with two other B-29 observation planes over Iwo Jima. One plane was there, but the other was a no-show. They waited for over an hour, then gave-up and proceeded to the target.

The primary target was the Kokura Arsenal, on the northern tip of Kyushu. When they got there, the target was obscured by smoke. They could see the target on radar, but were under strict orders to bomb using the visual sight. They made several passes (3, I think), but could not get a visual. Meanwhile, flak was starting to find their altitude and the radio picked-up activity on the Japanese fighter frequency. The mission commander decided to proceed to the alternate target - Nagasaki.

By this time, the fuel situation was getting critical, and they were looking at the possibility of having to jettison the bomb over water. They had enough fuel for only one run over Nagasaki, but when they got there the city was under clouds. The bombardier saided he saw a hole in the clouds, and used that bit of the city (a sports stadium) as his target. Some claimed he actually disobeyed orders and dropped using radar. Either way, this is why the bomb landed several miles from downtown.

Bock's Car no longer had fuel to return to Tinian, so the commander headed for Okinawa. He disregarded instructions from the tower and went straight in for an emergency landing. after touching down, his engines quit - he didn't have fuel to taxi off the runway.

I don't know if any of this can be modeled in CMANO, but it is an interesting insight on real-world mission execution.

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/28/2017 8:14:01 PM

HalfLifeExpert

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I knew that Nagasaki was the alternate target, and that it was at least partially obscured by clouds, but I didn't know the rest, pretty interesting.

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RE: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing. - 9/28/2017 9:21:45 PM

Ping Jockey

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At Okinawa, the 8th Air Force had just arrived from Europe after re-equipping with B-29, and was setting up shop. The 3-star commander of the 8th AF was pissed-off about these strangers landing unannounced, and drove out to give 'em hell.

The misunderstanding was quickly resolved. The general knew a thing or two about bombing Japan while low on fuel. He was a guy by the name of James Doolittle.

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Post #: 25