RE: P-400 for air-to-air?

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RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 3/20/2015 9:03:50 AM

Leandros

Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
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quote:

The art isn't perfect, but the one of the right is the model in service at Pearl Harbor and in the PI at the start of the war.

It may and may not be. Phil Rasmussen�s Pearl Harbor P-36 was in silvery aluminium. Later, those in active service certainly got that green camo. I don�t Think
there were any P-36�s in the PI during the war.

quote:

A range of 1200 miles is a bit high. Everything I have seen has a ferry range around 600-650 miles, which the game stats reflect.

Here I must arrest you. If you look into the �Detail specifications� link �

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-36/Curtiss_Hawk_75-A_Detail_Specifications.pdf -

you shall find that its actual ferry range was more than 1.200 miles (P & W engine) at 200 mph at 15.000 feet with �normal� (automatic) engine settings. I suppose
this altitude was selected as the highest practical one without oxygen. During tests flown at 160 mph on �manual� - 20.000 feet - ferry range was increased
considerably � if I remember correctly to 1.600 miles! This is described by messr. Beauchamp and Cuny in their book Curtiss Hawk 75 � the P-36 �bible�. A very good
characteristic in the Pacific or Philippine Theatre, I should think. The Cyclone-engine version had even better fuel economy but, as we now know, that was an
unreliable engine due to its often excessive lube oil consumption. The Dutch flew this version.

As for rate of climb, if you look into the manual you�ll see that total time to 22.000 feet is less than 10 minutes. That is an average of 2.200 f/m! Initial
climb: 3.200 f/m. The guys in the Philippines would certainly have appreciated that. Still, this is not with the 1.200 hp. engine which was mounted on the P-36A
in December 1941. If the local stories are to be believed the guys in the Philippines never made it up to the Japanese bombers at 23.000 feet with their P-40E�s.
Some actually preferred the earlier version, the P-40B, due to its better handling and climb rate.

quote:

Here is the data from the USAAF flight test center:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-36/P-36.html

While we know what engine and propeller is tested here we don�t know the actual configuration of this aircraft � even if it is stated as a P-36A.

quote:

The stats of all aircraft were derived from the best sources available (not Wikipedia). They aren't perfect though about 80-90% of the time when people
have problems with the stats, they really don't play out if you go to a high quality source that bases its data on solid factual data and uses the same criteria
to compare between different aircraft (apple to apple comparison).

Bill

I appreciate that which is why I have gone to some length to detail my parameters.

I just want to underline that the P-36 type I am looking for is the early one, the one that flew at PH and the Canal Zone at the time � 1941/42. While it was
under-armed it still shot down Japanese planes at PH. While it was un-armored (I believe) Rasmussen still flew his plane back to base with 500 bullet holes in it.
Without self-sealing fuel tanks, like the Japanese planes, they had better range and lower weight.

So here comes my question, can the planes be modified in the editor.

Fred

< Message edited by Leandros -- 3/20/2015 10:05:52 AM >

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(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 31

RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 3/20/2015 11:19:23 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

The art isn't perfect, but the one of the right is the model in service at Pearl Harbor and in the PI at the start of the war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros
It may and may not be. Phil Rasmussen�s Pearl Harbor P-36 was in silvery aluminium. Later, those in active service certainly got that green camo. I don�t Think
there were any P-36�s in the PI during the war.

The art is just there for the humans to look at. You could have a Klingon cruiser picture and it wouldn't make any difference for game play.

My mistake about the P-36s in the PI, I was thinking of the P-35.

quote:

A range of 1200 miles is a bit high. Everything I have seen has a ferry range around 600-650 miles, which the game stats reflect.

quote:

Here I must arrest you. If you look into the �Detail specifications� link �

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-36/Curtiss_Hawk_75-A_Detail_Specifications.pdf -

you shall find that its actual ferry range was more than 1.200 miles (P & W engine) at 200 mph at 15.000 feet with �normal� (automatic) engine settings. I suppose
this altitude was selected as the highest practical one without oxygen. During tests flown at 160 mph on �manual� - 20.000 feet - ferry range was increased
considerably � if I remember correctly to 1.600 miles! This is described by messr. Beauchamp and Cuny in their book Curtiss Hawk 75 � the P-36 �bible�. A very good
characteristic in the Pacific or Philippine Theatre, I should think. The Cyclone-engine version had even better fuel economy but, as we now know, that was an
unreliable engine due to its often excessive lube oil consumption. The Dutch flew this version.

As for rate of climb, if you look into the manual you�ll see that total time to 22.000 feet is less than 10 minutes. That is an average of 2.200 f/m! Initial
climb: 3.200 f/m. The guys in the Philippines would certainly have appreciated that. Still, this is not with the 1.200 hp. engine which was mounted on the P-36A
in December 1941. If the local stories are to be believed the guys in the Philippines never made it up to the Japanese bombers at 23.000 feet with their P-40E�s.
Some actually preferred the earlier version, the P-40B, due to its better handling and climb rate.

The document you sent looks like a sales brochure. I'd like to know where they got there numbers.

The XP-38 was touted as an ultra long range fighter because it had a range of 1300 miles. If the USAAF already had a 1200 mile range fighter in its stable, I strongly doubt the range of the P-38 would have been touted. The USAAF tried to set a transcontinental record with the XP-38 only a few weeks after its first flight. The planned route had legs of 1100 miles, which was considered very long for a fighter. The prototype crashed on a golf course coming in to land and was lost.

The Zero's range shocked everyone around the world because nobody thought it was possible to get that kind of range out of a single engine plane.

Comparing the claimed range of the P-36 with contemporaries and what was said about their range, if the Hawk 75 had a realistic range approaching anything close to 1000 miles, it would be a notable feature that is remembered. The USAAF considered the P-36 obsolescent at the time of Pearl Harbor and the remaining planes were withdrawn from service soon after, despite a critical shortage of aircraft in the first year of the war. If they thought it had any dramatically fantastic performance characteristics, I think they would have been trying to save it rather than retire it in favor of the P-40.

The game uses numbers derived from realistic sources based on aircraft fully combat loaded and equipped (real world conditions). Prototypes almost always were much faster and better performers than combat loaded aircraft. It wasn't unusual for combat aircraft to get more sluggish as they got more and more equipment added.

It is possible the P-36A could use a nudge in rate of climb. The P-36A did not have any armor, self sealing tanks, and it was more lightly armed than the RAF Mowhawks, which have many of the same stats in game.

quote:

Here is the data from the USAAF flight test center:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-36/P-36.html

quote:

While we know what engine and propeller is tested here we don�t know the actual configuration of this aircraft � even if it is stated as a P-36A.

It was probably closer to full combat equipment than the Hawk 75A retained by the Curtiss factory and used as an unarmed demonstrator. Though I don't know for sure.

quote:

The stats of all aircraft were derived from the best sources available (not Wikipedia). They aren't perfect though about 80-90% of the time when people
have problems with the stats, they really don't play out if you go to a high quality source that bases its data on solid factual data and uses the same criteria
to compare between different aircraft (apple to apple comparison).

Bill

quote:

I appreciate that which is why I have gone to some length to detail my parameters.

I just want to underline that the P-36 type I am looking for is the early one, the one that flew at PH and the Canal Zone at the time � 1941/42. While it was
under-armed it still shot down Japanese planes at PH. While it was un-armored (I believe) Rasmussen still flew his plane back to base with 500 bullet holes in it.
Without self-sealing fuel tanks, like the Japanese planes, they had better range and lower weight.

So here comes my question, can the planes be modified in the editor.

Fred

Yes, aircraft specs can be modified in the editor. Things like maneuver are abstracted numbers used in the game, but other things like rate of climb, speeds, range, etc are straight numbers in English units. I can't remember if the speeds are in knots or MPH. You can also change the armament and change the stats for the armament too.

Bill

_____________________________

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(in reply to Leandros)

Post #: 32

RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 3/20/2015 4:08:49 PM

Leandros

Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
Status: offline

quote:

The document you sent looks like a sales brochure. I'd like to know where they got there numbers.

The manual describes under what pre-requisites, weights, equipment, the data are acquired. Those were according to standard procedures as outlined by the Army Air Corps.

quote:

The Zero's range shocked everyone around the world because nobody thought it was possible to get that kind of range out of a single engine plane.

I know. The Zero�s performance was also not achieved by �normal� means. Saburo Sakai, in his book, describes how he and his friends tweeked the aircraft before the war to achieve maximum range for their particular purpose � the attack on The Philippines. This can be compared with the long-range tests of the P-36 where it was flown at lower speeds (160 mph.), higher altitudes (20.000 feet) and optimized �manual� engine control (RPM, throttle setting, prop. pitch, fuel mix) as opposed to the �automatic�. Still it was flown with max t/o weights. That is not to say that any rookie could do this but there is quite a difference between 600, 1.200 (�normal�, 15.000, 200) and 1.600 miles (�manual�, 20.000, 160).

In a typical scramble mode the P-36 would perform even better with only main tanks filled up. As would the Zero after a long flight. The Zero also had a drop-tank.

quote:

Comparing the claimed range of the P-36 with contemporaries and what was said about their range, if the Hawk 75 had a realistic range approaching anything close to 1000 miles, it would be a notable feature that is remembered. The USAAF considered the P-36 obsolescent at the time of Pearl Harbor and the remaining planes were withdrawn from service soon after, despite a critical shortage of aircraft in the first year of the war. If they thought it had any dramatically fantastic performance characteristics, I think they would have been trying to save it rather than retire it in favor of the P-40.

At Pearl Harbor the USAAC had long since decided that their fighters should have an inline engine. It was a fashion thing and had little relevance to the P-36 being obsolescent or not. It had plenty of development potential which was proven by the Navy�s radial-engine fighters. There was also another reason particular to the AAC. There was a lack of radial engines for their new bombers so they sponsored the Allison V-12 for the next generation fighters. Also, the AAC put little emphasis on range. Fighters were for point defense, not bomber escorts. They had Flying Fortresses. The P-39 being a good example. But, even that plane could be tweeked considerably.

quote:

The game uses numbers derived from realistic sources based on aircraft fully combat loaded and equipped (real world conditions). Prototypes almost always were much faster and better performers than combat loaded aircraft. It wasn't unusual for combat aircraft to get more sluggish as they got more and more equipment added.

I have no problem with that, we are talking about different versions. Yours is a late-war, loaded-down P-36. MY P-36 is not a prototype, but an early version with armament, however light, and full tanks. But, it did exist. Beauchamp and Cuny give some examples of even better performance than those in your �sales brochure�. Still, the figures in the manual is for the 1.100 hp. P & W engine, not the 1,200 hp.

quote:

It is possible the P-36A could use a nudge in rate of climb. The P-36A did not have any armor, self sealing tanks, and it was more lightly armed than the RAF Mowhawks, which have many of the same stats in game.

You are right, but it wasn�t only a nudge, it was what made it on par with the Zero. Climb, maneuverability, range. Just my opinion.
The Japanese bombers flew in over Manila at approx.. 23.000 feet. The P-40�s never reached them, the P-36 would have been there in 10 minutes. If they had been allowed to take off.

quote:

Yes, aircraft specs can be modified in the editor. Things like maneuver are abstracted numbers used in the game, but other things like rate of climb, speeds, range, etc are straight numbers in English units. I can't remember if the speeds are in knots or MPH. You can also change the armament and change the stats for the armament too.

Bill

Thank you. That�s great. Would you have any idea if the latest large update is incorporated in the copies presently selling?

Fred

_____________________________

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 33

RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 3/20/2015 8:21:31 PM

Erkki

Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline

Speaking of the P36, it also saw extensive service by the French and the Finnish.

FiAF used 44 examples: P-36 A-1 to A-4 and 13 A-6s. Their performance was immediately found inadequate(mainly top speed) in 1941 already and the ones with Wright Cyclones(1200 hp) were found highly unreliable. Lessons were learned from the Winter War, and thus they were all upgraded: armor seats, German Revi gunsights, one centreline machine gun was swapped to a heavy machine gun: Colt (when available) or Berezin(incredibly unwieldy and unreliable). I order a magazine on aviation history, and it lately had an extensive article on the different weapons modifications tried and used operationally, I need to find that one again...

Fighter squadron LLv32 using the P-36 scored 190 victories and lost 14 aircraft and 9 pilots. Its main opponents were I-153, I-16, lend-lease Hurricanes and P-40s, MiG-3, Yak, LaGG-3 and later the La-5. The last P-36 flew in August 1948.

If you are interested, here is actually a list of the unit's victories and losses, their dates, locations and reasons, notice that some of the early victories were scored by Hurricanes and Fokkers(HC and FRs, P-36 Hawks are "CU" for Curtiss): http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_Lentolaivue_32:n_ilmavoitoista_ja_sotatoimitappioista

< Message edited by Erkki -- 3/20/2015 9:23:18 PM >

(in reply to Leandros)

Post #: 34

RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 9/18/2017 11:13:40 AM

Leandros

Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Speaking of the P36, it also saw extensive service by the French and the Finnish.

FiAF used 44 examples: P-36 A-1 to A-4 and 13 A-6s. Their performance was immediately found inadequate(mainly top speed) in 1941 already and the ones with Wright Cyclones(1200 hp) were found highly unreliable. Lessons were learned from the Winter War, and thus they were all upgraded: armor seats, German Revi gunsights, one centreline machine gun was swapped to a heavy machine gun: Colt (when available) or Berezin(incredibly unwieldy and unreliable). I order a magazine on aviation history, and it lately had an extensive article on the different weapons modifications tried and used operationally, I need to find that one again...

Fighter squadron LLv32 using the P-36 scored 190 victories and lost 14 aircraft and 9 pilots. Its main opponents were I-153, I-16, lend-lease Hurricanes and P-40s, MiG-3, Yak, LaGG-3 and later the La-5. The last P-36 flew in August 1948.

If you are interested, here is actually a list of the unit's victories and losses, their dates, locations and reasons, notice that some of the early victories were scored by Hurricanes and Fokkers(HC and FRs, P-36 Hawks are "CU" for Curtiss): http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_Lentolaivue_32:n_ilmavoitoista_ja_sotatoimitappioista

Thank you - some of the Hawk A-6's were actually Norwegian ones, captured by the Germans when invading Norway in April 1940.

Fred

_____________________________

(in reply to Erkki)

Post #: 35

RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 9/18/2017 2:25:31 PM

Lecivius

Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline

Holy Necro Thread, Batman!!

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If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

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Post #: 36

RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 9/18/2017 5:20:38 PM

decourcy2

Posts: 516
Joined: 1/29/2015
Status: offline

And as for the guy talking about flying at 15000ft for 1200 miles without oxygen, you can't do that, too little air.

I am a pilot, but if you don't want to believe me read Bannon's comments flying above Guadalcanal in a P400 with no oxygen.

(in reply to Lecivius)

Post #: 37

RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 9/19/2017 9:58:32 AM

Leandros

Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: decourcy2

And as for the guy talking about flying at 15000ft for 1200 miles without oxygen, you can't do that, too little air.

I am a pilot, but if you don't want to believe me read Bannon's comments flying above Guadalcanal in a P400 with no oxygen.

Civilian rules today...

:

FAR §�91.211�Supplemental oxygen

(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry�

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.

-----------

The influence of lack of oxygen is known to vary considerable from person to person. An important factor being adaptability through "training".

Intermediate use of auxiliary oxygen is also well known. That said, WW2 fighters (and bombers) were, in general, equipped with auxilliary oxygen.

It should also be mentioned that the type of flying (combat/cruise, ferry) created different needs for oxygen.

Fred

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Post #: 38

RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 9/19/2017 11:49:54 AM

wwengr

Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Any thoughts on the P-400? how good is it compared to P-40E or P-39D? I am asking specifically as a fighter plane, for escort/ CAP/ sweep purposes

In terms of the game, the P-400 and the P-39D are about the same in most respects. Same firepower, same range, endurance, speed, same service rating. The P-39D has a better rate of climb. The P-400 has a little better maneuverability.

The only characteristic the P-40E is better than the other two is the max range. It has lower maneuverability and less firepower.

In the campaign game, you only get a small number of P-400's compared to the other two. One squadron arrives fully equipped and you get 72 airframes over two months for upgrades & replacements.

The P-40E's are plentiful early on, the P-39D's become so. There's only one squadron of P-40E's that can be upgraded to p-39D's

My suggestion: take the path of upgrading P-40E's to P-39D's on the one squadron, if you have enough P-39D's. The Phillipines give you the opportunity to burn up a lot of P-40E's early in the game, so you might need more P-40E's in the pool. With regard to upgrading P-39D's to P-400's? I would do so if combat results create a shortage of P-39D's. Don't forget that you start the game with the 54th PG equipped with P-39D's, but it is restricted to the US and they leave, taking their planes and pilots with them early on too. I wouldn't bother building those squadrons to full strength, only to lose the airframes in a few weeks. (don't forget to replace all of the pilots with rookie replacements right before they leave).

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)

Post #: 39

RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 9/19/2017 1:14:12 PM

Macclan5

Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline

This was debated some months ago as well.. at least a similar thread initiated by myself seeking experienced advice on the best deployment of the P39 / P 400.

I was under the "common" mistaken impression that the P39 P400 was a great ground attack fighter - in game I did not seem to see this practically apply.

Many books / articles seem to convey that thought - ground attack; however updated wikipedia ( assuming its accurate ) re-translated the Russian language suggesting its success was in the air war over the eastern front. Hmm.

So what I learned from great advice opinions here.

1) Of the may variables in air combat in this game (weather, pilot experience, etc) the relative minor differentials in the P39 P400 and P40 E hardly make one air frame vastly superior to the others. Pilot Experience foremost would be the difference maker.

2) None of the P39 P400 P40E will dominate the air (CAP or Sweeper) in and of themselves especially in early 1942 through 1943. They can be 'competitive' with Japanese forces largely depending upon the variables such as pilot experience.

But you have what you have - to fight with and the Allied player needs to contest and defend with what they have in the early war.

3) I have (limited) experience. I did enjoy success with the P39 P400 at Alt = 5000 Naval Attack - the so called barge buster noted above... Why?

Yes it would be better to have DBs and Wildcats (Marines); but at least in the Coral Sea region - you can get the P39 (some odd P400 squadrons as I recall) - to base quickly. You can project force quickly.

Further they fly out of a base with minimal air support as a single squadron; and they do fly. I rarely experienced aborted missions (vsAI). You have to fight with what you got.

A single squadron on Naval attack can / will sink the odd barge or equally disrupt invasion plans such that the Japanese player may be forced to devote some air support (Mini KB or the KB) to their landings. Knowing that you get a hit - some disruption - and knowing where you opponent is - potentially more valuable than the performance of the air frame in and off itself.

_____________________________

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Post #: 40

RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 9/21/2017 5:38:11 AM

Buckrock

Posts: 578
Joined: 3/16/2012
From: Not all there
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros
The Japanese bombers flew in over Manila at approx.. 23.000 feet. The P-40�s never reached them, the P-36 would have been there in 10 minutes. If they had been allowed to take off.

As in the game, the P-36A should have been competitive with the A6M2 at lower altitudes but outclassed above medium altitude (above 15000ft in AE). In the Philippines, the IJNAF bombers were normally accompanied by Zeros when they made their high altitude raids. Although the P-36A could've climbed quickly toward the raid altitude, it would have likely then had to tangle with the A6M2 under conditions where the Japanese fighter had a clear edge in most of the factors that determine combat success.

When I have used them in AE, I normally put any P-36A's on CAP below 10000ft in the hope they will not climb too high when they attempt intercept so that any Japanese fighters will have to come down low to fight. Unfortunately the P-36A's have seen little combat in my games to date so I can't say how worthwhile this tactic really is.

*Edit - I just noticed this is a danged Zombie thread. Forget what I mentioned as I'm sure your game experience over the last 2+ years would have taught you how best to use the P-36A. Or modify it to your heart's content.

< Message edited by Buckrock -- 9/21/2017 5:42:06 AM >

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Post #: 41

RE: P-400 for air-to-air? - 9/21/2017 2:44:53 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros
The Japanese bombers flew in over Manila at approx.. 23.000 feet. The P-40�s never reached them, the P-36 would have been there in 10 minutes. If they had been allowed to take off.

As in the game, the P-36A should have been competitive with the A6M2 at lower altitudes but outclassed above medium altitude (above 15000ft in AE). In the Philippines, the IJNAF bombers were normally accompanied by Zeros when they made their high altitude raids. Although the P-36A could've climbed quickly toward the raid altitude, it would have likely then had to tangle with the A6M2 under conditions where the Japanese fighter had a clear edge in most of the factors that determine combat success.

When I have used them in AE, I normally put any P-36A's on CAP below 10000ft in the hope they will not climb too high when they attempt intercept so that any Japanese fighters will have to come down low to fight. Unfortunately the P-36A's have seen little combat in my games to date so I can't say how worthwhile this tactic really is.

*Edit - I just noticed this is a danged Zombie thread. Forget what I mentioned as I'm sure your game experience over the last 2+ years would have taught you how best to use the P-36A. Or modify it to your heart's content.

My P-36s become trainers in the USA or become Chinese junk fighters!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Buckrock)

Post #: 42

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RE: P-400 for air-to-air?