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Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions?

 
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Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/19/2017 1:29:31 PM   
WingedIncubus


Posts: 512
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline 		Like, really. Aside from maintaining a fort level and preventing it from degrading, what current use have Fortified Regions in v1.11.00? Because right now, I do not see the "fortified" part being any useful in the current game.

Do they increase the construction rating and help to increase a fort level in a significant way? Fort construction still requires a division in the hex, so it does not free up troops being useful elsewhere - like stand and die on the front. Do they at least significantly act as a defense CV modifier or a bonus?

Are they a complete waste of AP early in the game? Because at 16 AP on early turns they are sure expensive, when I could spend it to put Koniev, Zhukov, or Kirponos in command of a Front.

< Message edited by Drakken -- 9/19/2017 1:41:40 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/19/2017 2:22:35 PM   
Searry

 

Posts: 848
Joined: 1/24/2014
Status: offline 		They are very useful in creating fort levels in advance to places where you will retreat. When the enemy is near, just disband it and retreat to the readily fortified new line of defense.

(in reply to WingedIncubus)
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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/19/2017 2:34:35 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Real price of fortified region is 4 PP. You have 16PP only because it is the first month of the war. After it will be reduced to 8PP, then 4PP.

Fortified region allow you to built in advance fortification to better fort level. (See manual about it).

Careful fortified region do not built much alone, you need to assign to it sappers or construction units.

They have bad combat value you may want to disband them before enemy contact.

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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/19/2017 3:39:48 PM   
Nix77

 

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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Real price of fortified region is 4 PP. You have 16PP only because it is the first month of the war. After it will be reduced to 8PP, then 4PP.

Fortified region allow you to built in advance fortification to better fort level. (See manual about it).

Careful fortified region do not built much alone, you need to assign to it sappers or construction units.

They have bad combat value you may want to disband them before enemy contact.


Currently there's a bug in the game that allows L2 forts everywhere on the map. After next patch the rules will be as listed in the manual:

quote:


Fort level 5 can be built only in cities with large port containing a fort unit.

Fort level 4 can be built only in big cities (city, light urban or heavy urban terrain) or towns with port containing a fort unit.

Fort level 3 can be built only in big cities, towns with port, in hexes with a fort unit or adjacent to an enemy.

Fort level 2 can be built only next to a fort unit, in coastal zones or up to 3 hexes from a supplied enemy unit.

Fort level 1 can be built only up to 20 hexes from a supplied enemy unit.

In swamp terrain the fort cannot be larger than 2.


The highlight being here that in an open area, a fortified zone allows L3 on one hex and L2 in the surrounding hexes, which is a big improvement over plain L1 forts.

Make sure you attach experienced construction or engineer units to the forts, that way they dig a lot faster. When defending, you can also attach combat SUs to them, and they will get automatically committed to defensive battles. There's also a special bonus for artillery attached to fort units:

quote:


To better simulate the ability to pre-register fire locations, the effectiveness of artillery fire is related to the fort level of the hex containing the firing artillery. The higher the fort level, the more effective artillery in that hex will be in combat.

Due to their ability to participate in multiple battles, artillery support units attached to headquarters units do not receive any benefit from fort levels when committed to combat, so this benefit is limited to artillery combat units as well as artillery support units directly attached to fortified units.


< Message edited by Nix77 -- 9/19/2017 3:41:29 PM >

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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/19/2017 6:29:53 PM   
No idea

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline 		Do you ever attach SUs to forts? I have always assumed that it wasnt worth the price you pay in case you are defeated. On any case, considering all the weapons needed to make them they should have a lot more CV, imo, at least if another friendly unit is helping on the defence.

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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/19/2017 6:51:08 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Attaching sapper regiment to forts is a good way to speed a lot fortification building and provide a nice garnison.

Also in theory, a well trained fortified zone (with XP 45) with well trained artillery support units could provide a nice firepower during combat phase, but as they have almost no combat value during CV check at the end of the combat, it is difficult to rely of them, they have no staying power.

Few test have been done to see if it is better to have a fortified zone + 2 rifle division or 3 rifle division in odessa or sebastopol, for example.

(in reply to No idea)
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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/20/2017 12:00:25 AM   
WingedIncubus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

The highlight being here that in an open area, a fortified zone allows L3 on one hex and L2 in the surrounding hexes, which is a big improvement over plain L1 forts.

Make sure you attach experienced construction or engineer units to the forts, that way they dig a lot faster. When defending, you can also attach combat SUs to them, and they will get automatically committed to defensive battles. There's also a special bonus for artillery attached to fort units:


Basic newbish question, but if I attach engineers and construction SU to a Fortified Region do I still need to man it with a division unit?

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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/20/2017 6:16:42 AM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Fort units do dig even without any attached support and it's perfectly OK to leave them do so especially far behind in the back line, they'll have plenty of time to do the digging. So you don't need a division or some other combat unit to enable digging. Fort unit is considered to be combat unit afaik, it's just immobile.

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Post #: 8
RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/20/2017 12:29:13 PM   
No idea

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Fort units do dig even without any attached support and it's perfectly OK to leave them do so especially far behind in the back line, they'll have plenty of time to do the digging. So you don't need a division or some other combat unit to enable digging. Fort unit is considered to be combat unit afaik, it's just immobile.


They dig very slowly, so you really need to put some infantry unit on them. Dont know what is the effect of engineers as I have never attached them to FZs.

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Post #: 9
RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/20/2017 12:34:49 PM   
morvael


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From: Poland
Status: offline 		I guess with the fortification fix fort units will be more important than before.

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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/20/2017 1:27:47 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I guess with the fortification fix fort units will be more important than before.


finally!

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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/20/2017 6:55:51 PM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Fort units do dig even without any attached support and it's perfectly OK to leave them do so especially far behind in the back line, they'll have plenty of time to do the digging. So you don't need a division or some other combat unit to enable digging. Fort unit is considered to be combat unit afaik, it's just immobile.


They dig very slowly, so you really need to put some infantry unit on them. Dont know what is the effect of engineers as I have never attached them to FZs.


A freshly built FZ has only 1 construction value, which is basically nothing. It rises over time when it builds experience however. An experienced FZ has 20+ construction value alone. Three reasonably experienced (35xp) sapper regiments have together around 45+ construction value, which nearly maxes out the construction speed of the hex. So attaching them to FZs really does work.

If you want to build a "no retreat" line, having an FZ with experienced sappers may be able to rebuild the fort level even after heavy assaults. This probably works only when stacked with corps units since divisions probably can't hold the hex against many determined attacks, no matter how experienced they are.

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 9/20/2017 6:56:09 PM >

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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/20/2017 7:04:07 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		There are examples of FZ being attached to corps with stacks of SUs holding out alone against attacks - a fort in Kiev supported by SUs from over the river being a classic example. See Dinglir's AAR against Dontra (I think) for the most recent example I can remember - took multiple German units just to beat a hex with a lone FZ.

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Post #: 13
RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/21/2017 7:31:21 AM   
No idea

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Fort units do dig even without any attached support and it's perfectly OK to leave them do so especially far behind in the back line, they'll have plenty of time to do the digging. So you don't need a division or some other combat unit to enable digging. Fort unit is considered to be combat unit afaik, it's just immobile.


They dig very slowly, so you really need to put some infantry unit on them. Dont know what is the effect of engineers as I have never attached them to FZs.


A freshly built FZ has only 1 construction value, which is basically nothing. It rises over time when it builds experience however. An experienced FZ has 20+ construction value alone. Three reasonably experienced (35xp) sapper regiments have together around 45+ construction value, which nearly maxes out the construction speed of the hex. So attaching them to FZs really does work.

If you want to build a "no retreat" line, having an FZ with experienced sappers may be able to rebuild the fort level even after heavy assaults. This probably works only when stacked with corps units since divisions probably can't hold the hex against many determined attacks, no matter how experienced they are.


But how long do they take to get the experience needed for a 20+ construction value? I am not sure if the soviet player in 1941 has that amount of time (whaever it is). And 3 experienced sapper regiments in 1941 is a lot for the soviet player. The soviet player doesnt start with many of them, and I am not sure of their xperience. For the german player is different, as, by the time he starts retreating, he will have had plenty of time (and APs) to make a fortified line all over the polish border.

In short, my guess is that the changes will slightly improve the german situation in the long run while making the 1941 soviet situation worse.

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 14
RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 9/21/2017 8:58:22 AM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Fort units do dig even without any attached support and it's perfectly OK to leave them do so especially far behind in the back line, they'll have plenty of time to do the digging. So you don't need a division or some other combat unit to enable digging. Fort unit is considered to be combat unit afaik, it's just immobile.


They dig very slowly, so you really need to put some infantry unit on them. Dont know what is the effect of engineers as I have never attached them to FZs.


A freshly built FZ has only 1 construction value, which is basically nothing. It rises over time when it builds experience however. An experienced FZ has 20+ construction value alone. Three reasonably experienced (35xp) sapper regiments have together around 45+ construction value, which nearly maxes out the construction speed of the hex. So attaching them to FZs really does work.

If you want to build a "no retreat" line, having an FZ with experienced sappers may be able to rebuild the fort level even after heavy assaults. This probably works only when stacked with corps units since divisions probably can't hold the hex against many determined attacks, no matter how experienced they are.


But how long do they take to get the experience needed for a 20+ construction value? I am not sure if the soviet player in 1941 has that amount of time (whaever it is). And 3 experienced sapper regiments in 1941 is a lot for the soviet player. The soviet player doesnt start with many of them, and I am not sure of their xperience. For the german player is different, as, by the time he starts retreating, he will have had plenty of time (and APs) to make a fortified line all over the polish border.

In short, my guess is that the changes will slightly improve the german situation in the long run while making the 1941 soviet situation worse.



It takes quite long :( Best option is to place them in advance in chokepoints that you know will need them. As for Soviet player in 1941, the FZs are so expensive at the game start that it hardly pays off to place that many of them.

Under the new (real) fort level rules, FZs will likely be quite essential to prepare at least Moscow defense since without you'll be sitting in L1 forts which aren't that useful. In September ´41 there will probably be a few experienced sappers around that you can use to beef up the Moscow or Leningrad forts to L3.

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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 5/12/2018 1:26:58 PM   
ICalli


Posts: 28
Joined: 2/19/2018
Status: offline 		Jumping on this post. Will Fortified Regions disband if not stacked with another unit, in contact with enemy, and given a TOE of 20%? I want to slim my forces facing the Finns at Leningrad but if the Fort Regions disappear the Finns will ooze in

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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 5/12/2018 2:03:54 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		no - they should remain if in supply (they will still have a cv greater then 0 even if unready)

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Post #: 17
Fortress in swamp area with port - 8/15/2018 12:33:13 PM   
Huw Jones

 

Posts: 143
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Status: offline 		Will a fortress in swamp area with a port, go up to level 4

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Post #: 18
RE: Fortress in swamp area with port - 8/15/2018 2:04:22 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
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From: Poland
Status: offline 		No.

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RE: Fortress in swamp area with port - 8/15/2018 2:41:20 PM   
Huw Jones

 

Posts: 143
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Status: offline 		Thanks.

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Post #: 20
RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 8/16/2018 5:26:29 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Currently there's a bug in the game that allows L2 forts everywhere on the map. After next patch the rules will be as listed in the manual:

quote:



Fort level 2 can be built only next to a fort unit, in coastal zones or up to 3 hexes from a supplied enemy unit.

Fort level 1 can be built only up to 20 hexes from a supplied enemy unit.

In swamp terrain the fort cannot be larger than 2.


I don't think there's anything wrong with the current rules. Why change?



< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 8/16/2018 5:27:30 AM >

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RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 8/16/2018 9:24:07 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Currently there's a bug in the game that allows L2 forts everywhere on the map. After next patch the rules will be as listed in the manual:

quote:



Fort level 2 can be built only next to a fort unit, in coastal zones or up to 3 hexes from a supplied enemy unit.

Fort level 1 can be built only up to 20 hexes from a supplied enemy unit.

In swamp terrain the fort cannot be larger than 2.


I don't think there's anything wrong with the current rules. Why change?



I think to avoid it turning into a siege warfare game of static lines

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 22
RE: Ok, what's the deal with Fortified Regions? - 8/16/2018 2:52:39 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Currently there's a bug in the game that allows L2 forts everywhere on the map. After next patch the rules will be as listed in the manual:

quote:



Fort level 2 can be built only next to a fort unit, in coastal zones or up to 3 hexes from a supplied enemy unit.

Fort level 1 can be built only up to 20 hexes from a supplied enemy unit.

In swamp terrain the fort cannot be larger than 2.


I don't think there's anything wrong with the current rules. Why change?



I think to avoid it turning into a siege warfare game of static lines


Don't think I've ever had or seen that problem but there again I only play against the AI.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 23
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