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Rebirth! - 9/16/2017 4:38:42 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Dec 10, 1943

Saints be praised, Allied high command continues to use the B29s against my troops. The troops take a lot of disruption losses to massed 4e beastie bombing, but the AA extracts some price.

The troops were swept by Corsairs and Hurricanes prior...




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Post #: 3811
RE: Rebirth! - 9/16/2017 4:39:30 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		New Britain...




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Post #: 3812
RE: Rebirth! - 9/16/2017 4:42:02 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Nothing makes this old JFB feel better than seeing Jugs at the top of the plane loss list.




Way too many ops losses...though.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 9/16/2017 4:45:47 PM >

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Post #: 3813
RE: Rebirth! - 9/16/2017 4:45:21 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		In the jungle, in Burma, the destruction continues...




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Post #: 3814
RE: Rebirth! - 9/19/2017 11:42:46 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Dec 11, 1943

Another good attack in Burma. IJAAF heavily bombing the stack of 50,000 Chinese. The Allies use their fighters to strafe some elements still stuck around Pearl Harbor, then they bombard and invade. Allies are cleaning up the rear lines.






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Post #: 3815
RE: Rebirth! - 9/19/2017 11:44:06 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Burma

Signs of a retreat? I suspect a lot of the units really need to upgrade their devices.






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Post #: 3816
RE: Rebirth! - 9/19/2017 11:53:55 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		The fight that broke the the Allied personal morale...Allies inform me that altitude restriction HR are horrible, after this fight over Manus and that he is standing down fighters (for Jugs or for all operations -- unclear) until Jan 1, 1944 when the altitude jumps up to 35K from 30K. There was no Allied air operation anywhere close to the front lines this day.

My goodness, how will he feel when he hits the first low cap buzz saw?

I am not a huge fan of HR, and certainly there is no reason to keep them anymore since both Olorin and Jocke are out of the game.

Should I just offer to nix the altitude restriction on fighter ops HR? Or do we keep them for continuity sake?



Morning Air attack on Manus , at 101,119

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 27 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 4
A6M5c Zero x 36
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 13
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 16
Ki-61-Id Tony x 10

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5c Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-61-Id Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 2 destroyed

CAP engaged:
Hosho-1/A with A6M5c Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 31000 and 32960.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
Taiyo-1/C with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters to 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
Ryujo-1/C with A6M5c Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 29000 and 30000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
Kaga-1 with A6M5c Zero (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 25000 and 28000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
Shokaku-1 with A6M5c Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 25000 and 30000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
9th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 30000 and 32540.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
70th Sentai with Ki-44-IIb Tojo (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 29000 and 32000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
265th Sentai with Ki-61-Id Tony (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 25000 and 30000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes



(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 3817
RE: Rebirth! - 9/19/2017 12:21:28 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Should I just offer to nix the altitude restriction on fighter ops HR? Or do we keep them for continuity sake?


I can see their use for stock games when you keep getting strato-sweeps. If a game is DBB or a mod based on that airframe data, I don't see why they are needed. JWE knocked down the high ceilings of airframes to get rid of the need for HR, IMO.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 3818
RE: Rebirth! - 9/19/2017 1:35:53 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		I don't know what to say. sweeping at 4:1 odds with superior planes and came out at 2:3 losses and complaining.

I'm going to be very 'positive' here. I'm positively gonna bite my tongue.

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Pax

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Post #: 3819
RE: Rebirth! - 9/19/2017 2:19:21 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Probably extended range too.

I don't know why the game has hr altitude restrictions on fighters, whether it was Olorin or Jocke, it just feels wrong to me to make such a big deal out of a non-event to me. Quite frankly, I don't think it augurs well for the future of the game.

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Post #: 3820
RE: Rebirth! - 9/19/2017 2:39:37 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

Should I just offer to nix the altitude restriction on fighter ops HR? Or do we keep them for continuity sake?


I can see their use for stock games when you keep getting strato-sweeps. If a game is DBB or a mod based on that airframe data, I don't see why they are needed. JWE knocked down the high ceilings of airframes to get rid of the need for HR, IMO.

I do not even see the need regarding so-called "strato-sweeps" because the fighter-vs-fighter altitudes are just metaphors. All that matters is 'this one was able to attack from higher than that one was stationed at'. The HRs stop that and thus have a negative effect. Get rid of altitude HRs and go right ahead with "strato-sweeps" when they benefit you.

This game does represent history well-enough that during some periods with some match-ups one player will get hammered while the other feels helpless later on. There are plenty of counter tactics to high sweeps.


< Message edited by witpqs -- 9/20/2017 1:52:44 AM >

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Post #: 3821
RE: Rebirth! - 9/20/2017 1:50:26 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Quite frankly, I don't think it augurs well for the future of the game.

What I was biting my tongue on ....

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Pax

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Post #: 3822
RE: Rebirth! - 9/20/2017 1:51:12 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
There are plenty of counter tactics to high sweeps.


+1

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Post #: 3823
RE: Rebirth! - 9/20/2017 7:29:37 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


I am not a huge fan of HR, and certainly there is no reason to keep them anymore since both Olorin and Jocke are out of the game.

Should I just offer to nix the altitude restriction on fighter ops HR? Or do we keep them for continuity sake?




Nix the HR and kindly explain this result is not due to the HR but due to the nature of numbers, altitudes, airframe stats, weather, dice rolls and a few other factors. Also it might be beneficial to point out to him that flying higher may not be to his advantage, and if he wants an easy go of it this won't be the game for him.

Best to get it all out of the way now so it doesn't come back to bite later when the going really gets tough.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 3824
Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 1:53:09 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


I am not a huge fan of HR, and certainly there is no reason to keep them anymore since both Olorin and Jocke are out of the game.

Should I just offer to nix the altitude restriction on fighter ops HR? Or do we keep them for continuity sake?




Nix the HR and kindly explain this result is not due to the HR but due to the nature of numbers, altitudes, airframe stats, weather, dice rolls and a few other factors. Also it might be beneficial to point out to him that flying higher may not be to his advantage, and if he wants an easy go of it this won't be the game for him.

Best to get it all out of the way now so it doesn't come back to bite later when the going really gets tough.


Just got an email from BillBrown, and he is bowing out.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3825
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 2:19:39 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Well, lets see.

Lok has offered to pick the game up in a week or two, but to be honest...I feel like I want it to end.

First and foremost, I am a scenario 1 style JFB...and in scenario 2 Japan is simply too strong for most of the game.

Second, I simply love all the different planes and pdu off handicaps a lot of models that I like to play around with.

Third, my game with Obvert is utterly fascinating and deserves more of my gaming and AAR time. Two games is simply too much for my time. 1.3 games is about right I think.

Lok would be an incredibly tough opponent, and make for a great game, but for another time when I have more time...and after I make Obvert kneel and yield.


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Post #: 3826
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 5:03:44 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		I don't play with max altitude HRs anyway

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 3827
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 5:13:51 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		I was open to getting rid of it. As I have said many times I am not a big HR kind of guy.

I still have to look back and see which side wanted it. The other HR I didn't like was no strategic bombing in China.


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Post #: 3828
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 6:16:18 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		If you 2 do decide to mix it up, I'll buy the pizza and beer

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If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

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Post #: 3829
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 6:18:26 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		No game should be allowed to die on the vine like this one.

Jeff, give it a few days or weeks to mull over. I hope you'll then feel the need to take it up. I know all of us Formites hope that you do. And a contest between you and Loka would make good reading.

P.S. I'm at a loss to understand how this game ended this way. What came over Bill?

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Post #: 3830
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 8:14:52 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

If you 2 do decide to mix it up, I'll buy the pizza and beer


I'll let the Manny & Olga's joint near me know to expect weekly pizza orders on my behalf.

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Post #: 3831
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 8:28:49 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

P.S. I'm at a loss to understand how this game ended this way. What came over Bill?



I think his excitement level was high, he got the turn, got it up and running and found out it was PDU off, that Jocke only converted 17 AKEs, and didn't realize how much work a pickup game is initially and got overwhelmed.

He quit once before the initial turn he did, but and he explained that as first turn jitters, when he decided to pick up the game again.

I think a lot of AFBs are OCD, and can't mentally take other AFBs setups. Sarcasm, Joke there with just a dash of truth.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 9/20/2017 8:33:25 PM >

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Post #: 3832
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 8:32:31 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


Jeff, give it a few days or weeks to mull over. I hope you'll then feel the need to take it up. I know all of us Formites hope that you do. And a contest between you and Loka would make good reading.




I don't know. With two games, that are both heavily involved with action, I find my emphasis turns to flipping turns, and I make lots of really careless mistakes. I can't concentrate on the units and their devices as much, and in general have a lot less fun.

Jocke might want to come back in a year or so, but more likely he would want to start a new game. So in other words don't hold your breath.

Also, Bill divulged a fair bit of meta game knowledge to me.

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Post #: 3833
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 8:51:53 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


Jeff, give it a few days or weeks to mull over. I hope you'll then feel the need to take it up. I know all of us Formites hope that you do. And a contest between you and Loka would make good reading.




I don't know. With two games, that are both heavily involved with action, I find my emphasis turns to flipping turns, and I make lots of really careless mistakes. I can't concentrate on the units and their devices as much, and in general have a lot less fun.

Jocke might want to come back in a year or so, but more likely he would want to start a new game. So in other words don't hold your breath.

Also, Bill divulged a fair bit of meta game knowledge to me.



I'm still up for it at a pace of a couple of turns a week. I have several games going as well (with one winding down) that are going at varying paces. PDU Off is a downer, but not a huge deal once 1945 comes along. And the weather is about to get colder, so my outdoor construction is about to pause in a few months. I wouldn't intend to do an AAR.

Meta game knowledge isn't a constant.

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Post #: 3834
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 8:59:04 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		What the heck is "meta game"?

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Post #: 3835
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 9:02:26 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What the heck is "meta game"?


Some of the big picture things Jocke did that upset Bill.

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Post #: 3836
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 9:04:28 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I looked it up: "Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself."

That's a pretty vague definition. I do understand the definition presented by Lowpe, but it doesn't strictly seem to fit within the actual definition.

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Post #: 3837
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 9:09:58 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Just got an email from Bill, thought I would post it here.


I have informed Jeff that I will not be able to take over this game. I really under appreciated how much time it would take.
I still work full time and 4 games was too much. It is my fault, I should not have offered, but sometimes we all do stupid things.
I was not happy with the house rules, but in less than a month they would have been mostly obsolete anyway. I just do not have
the time it would take to do this game justice. I will stick with my three existing games( two are quite slow ) and try and not
overload my self again.

It was too much me to handle and I sincerely apologize for it.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3838
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 9:11:10 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I looked it up: "Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself."

That's a pretty vague definition. I do understand the definition presented by Lowpe, but it doesn't strictly seem to fit within the actual definition.


I am using definition number 2 from Lowpe's Global Stupid American Dictionary of misused words.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3839
RE: Finis; Part II - 9/20/2017 11:03:01 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I looked it up: "Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself."

That's a pretty vague definition. I do understand the definition presented by Lowpe, but it doesn't strictly seem to fit within the actual definition.


I am using definition number 2 from Lowpe's Global Stupid American Dictionary of misused words.


Metagaming is separate from meta (game) knowledge.

For example, typically in Dungeons & Dragons the dungeon master would not let the players know how much health an adversary has. However, if it is a stock adversary (such as a hill giant), players who have looked at the profile for a hill giant before will know that it has roughly X health. They will also know roughly how much damage they have done to it throughout the course of a fight, so can gauge their actions accordingly.

In WITP parlance, I assume "meta game knowledge" would refer to pilots, plane pools, LCU prep targets, staging areas, etc. Some opsec things, others not so much.

From reading Jocke's AAR, I have a general idea of the state of the Allied forces and don't think anything that's unknown would be unrecoverable.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 3840
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