Gathering historical information about units.

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Gathering historical information about units.

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Gathering historical information about units.

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Gathering historical information about units. - 9/20/2017 11:26:39 PM

KitsuneKojima

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/12/2017
Status: offline

Hello guys!

I am slowly reaching the point of creating my own scenarios. I'm learning how to use the editor.

I have a couple of ideas for scenarios (the big one at the moment is the invasion of Cyprus by Turkish forces in 1974, also known as Operation Atilla). I have one question for you guys: is there any good, single source of information about specific units that were taking part in particular operations? For example, I am struggling to find any article about Turkish fleet around that time except the units that were destroyed.

The build in game database is a great thing, but the filter options are not enough to narrow down the exact era. I guess the developers have some good sources of information about the specific units? I really have nothing against some serious digging and reading some books, but maybe you guys know the fastest way find the interesting information. Thanks for your time!

Post #: 1

RE: Gathering historical information about units. - 9/20/2017 11:31:19 PM

HalfLifeExpert

Posts: 911
Joined: 7/20/2015
From: California, United States
Status: offline

hmm, that's a somewhat more obscure conflict in the grander scheme of things, so you may have some trouble finding a single source.

This Wikipedia page may lead you to some information, check the notes and sources at the bottom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations_during_the_Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

Other than that, I would suggest trying to find information on the Turkish, Greek and Cyprus armed forces in the 1970s, and obviously ignore stuff that was not available in 1974.

< Message edited by HalfLifeExpert -- 9/20/2017 11:32:07 PM >

(in reply to KitsuneKojima)

Post #: 2

RE: Gathering historical information about units. - 9/20/2017 11:38:31 PM

KitsuneKojima

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/12/2017
Status: offline

Thank you, HalfLifeExpert!

I've already researched the wiki sites about this operation with a little success, but sadly the information are very limited. I know that there were 11 or 12 naval units involved in the landing, and at least three of them were destroyers (and three of them were sink by air force frendly fire, that is some bad luck).

EDIT: Ironically, the land forces are very well documented. But this game is called "Modern Air and Naval operations" :).

< Message edited by KitsuneKojima -- 9/20/2017 11:43:19 PM >

(in reply to HalfLifeExpert)

Post #: 3

RE: Gathering historical information about units. - 9/20/2017 11:41:32 PM

HalfLifeExpert

Posts: 911
Joined: 7/20/2015
From: California, United States
Status: offline

Yeah your best bet would be to look for military histories, or even general histories, of that particular conflict, and hope for the best.

Unless you know Turkish or Modern Greek, then you may be able to find more information.

(in reply to KitsuneKojima)

Post #: 4

RE: Gathering historical information about units. - 9/21/2017 12:22:59 AM

Rory Noonan

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline

Finding info can be hard, way harder than expected in some cases.

For example I tried to come up with a USN OOB in 1991; after purchasing several expensive books I have a fair idea now but online sources alone wouldn't have allowed me to compile that.

The simplest solution in a wargaming sense is to make an educated guess, and use randomisation if appropriate. If the scenario plays well, at the end of the day that's what matters most.

If there's any glaring inaccuracies, someone will point it out

It's much easier to 'fix' a released/completed scenario than to get everything perfect before releasing one; I've found that if I try to get everything historically perfect they tend to not get released because they're never done.

< Message edited by apache85 -- 9/21/2017 12:33:19 AM >

(in reply to HalfLifeExpert)

Post #: 5

RE: Gathering historical information about units. - 9/21/2017 12:26:45 AM

KitsuneKojima

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/12/2017
Status: offline

Thank you for your post, apache85! I will surely try to experiment with certain settings, balance etc.

(in reply to Rory Noonan)

Post #: 6

RE: Gathering historical information about units. - 9/21/2017 12:28:48 AM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

I think ACIG.org had a number of orbats for the Cyprus conflict. It's moved a bunch but you can probably find it in google.

The Web is ok but you're better off finding books.

Mike

_____________________________

(in reply to Rory Noonan)

Post #: 7

RE: Gathering historical information about units. - 9/21/2017 2:11:02 AM

Gunner98

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline

I have been to the Pentemili beach and museum west of Kyrenia and remember pictures of several landing craft and the one landing ship but not the details. The cliffs are quite steep and about 4 Meters high, so difficult to exit the beach area.

I've got Jane's 69/70 and 72/73 which show no amphibious forces in the Turkish Navy at all. Jane's 81/82 has some:

Interesting that this article mentions the Ertugrul (L401) a Terrebonne Parish Class LST which was transferred from the US in June of 73.
http://www.network54.com/Search/view/248068/1214163007/Attila-1%2BAttila-2+July-August+1974+Chronolgy%2BAttrition+men+%26+equip+both+sides?term=Super+Streak+&page=219

In Jane's Another T Parish transferred in Aug 74
2 other LSTs transferred from W Germany (Ex US) in 74/75
Turkish build LSTs starting in 1980
5 British and 11 Turkish build French LCTs by 74 a bunch more starting in 1980
16 LCU
20 LCM

According to this source http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/10082563
the following was landed on day 1
12x 105mm Howitzers
20x M113 APCs
~3000 troops
15 M47 MBTs on the Ertugrul were not landed due to beach conditions, presumably they were landed in Kyrinia later.
And a Company of Infantry were put in by helicopter to secure the beach and the road which runs along it.

So I think it is safe to assume that most of these landing craft were used.
Here is another bit, some of the info is conflicting but the 4th photo down is the one I remember:
https://cj3b.info/World/TurkeyCyprus.html
Also there is a photo that has an M-47 wading ashore.

For Airforce � here is one site with some good detail: http://www.ole-nikolajsen.com/TURKISH%20FORCES%202004/Cyprus.htm

For surface ships it is more difficult. It�s worth noting that the only casualties they took was from a single Turkish Air Force attack. Two Cypriote MTBs were sunk, one grounded and 4 scuttled.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reported_military_losses_during_the_Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
Of their 12 DDs, we know that at least 3 were involved in the friendly fire attack.
In 73 there were:
2x Gearing (Adatepe, Kocatepe)
1x Smith
5x Fletcher
4x Gleaves (all struck in 73/74)
2x FFs under construction

In 80 there were:

8x Gearing (Tinaztepe 73, Gayret 73, Kocatepe Jul 74, 1 in 79, 2 in 80)
1x Sumner (acquired in 72/73)
1x Smith
4x Fletcher
2x FF

We know that Adatepe (damaged), Kocatepe (Sunk) & Tinaztepe (damaged) were involved � likely the 4th Gearing (Gayret) was also in the formation.
I think it is also reasonable to assume that at least � the fleet would have been engaged in NATO duties which the US would not have allowed them to shirk. From what I understand the US also had quite a hand in keeping the Greek Navy out of the fight. So I wouldn�t think there would be too much more than the 4 Gearings and perhaps one or two other.

B

< Message edited by Gunner98 -- 9/21/2017 2:19:19 AM >

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 8