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Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/25/2017 2:31:47 PM

ny59giants

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I need info on how best to conduct Japanese ASW efforts in early '43. My merchant fleet is the only place I'm getting hurt as 43 rolls along.
Need help!?!

Post #: 1

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/25/2017 2:36:08 PM

Lowpe

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Michael!

I don't think I understand.

Are you saying Allied subs are effective?

I must have misread that, cause everyone knows Japanese ASW efforts are op and Allied subs totally nerfed.

I guess you can't really tell us what you are doing, eh?

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 9/25/2017 2:38:22 PM >

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 2

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/25/2017 2:49:30 PM

Xargun

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From: Near Columbus, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I need info on how best to conduct Japanese ASW efforts in early '43. My merchant fleet is the only place I'm getting hurt as 43 rolls along.
Need help!?!

1. I'm no ASW expert but usually do fairly well in my games. I stick to the shallows as much as possible so even the escorts with crappy Depth Charges can get hits.

2. Get float planes patrolling your choke points.

3. Make sure all convoys have at least 1 escort. Subs won't surface for attacks if there is a warship with the convoy. Otherwise they will surface and definitely kill a ship.

4. Be prepared to leave damaged ships behind if they will slow down the convoy. Send them to the closest port and send 1 escort if you can spare it. if not, then the merchie travels alone.

5. Try to avoid stopping in hexes where subs may be. Even if you have to use partial movement to avoid them. Also stick to base hexes as much as possible - even dot bases. This seems to work well for me.

6. If your opponent is brave enough to send his subs into base hexes, mine them. A good mine hit on a sub is usually a dead sub.

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 3

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/25/2017 2:56:55 PM

ny59giants

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I've lost CVE Hosho, 3 DDs as of early Feb '43. I've lost about 110 ships/subs total, but at least one a day since '43 began. Yes, I know its not much, but I'm trying to figure out what else I can and should be doing.

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Post #: 4

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/25/2017 3:12:29 PM

Xargun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I've lost CVE Hosho, 3 DDs as of early Feb '43. I've lost about 110 ships/subs total, but at least one a day since '43 began. Yes, I know its not much, but I'm trying to figure out what else I can and should be doing.

Air search is best. It will detect the subs which will allow you to avoid them via waypoints - or at least if you must go through them, a detected sub is less likely to make an attack run.

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Post #: 5

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/25/2017 4:09:08 PM

Lowpe

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Work the engine. Understand your devices (upgrade). Change your captains, aerial ASW is much better than naval search.

Big merchant convoys are easier to protect - 36+ASW needed.

AD,AKE, AG on convoy routes.

AV flying night naval search

CVE only docked at size 3 ports flying ASW.

Iboats can escort convoys too.

Give big convoys a task force commander..high naval low aggression. Maybe a CL.

Set convoys to low threat tolerance.

Check for DL...if it has a 4 then it was spotted by a sub. Zig and Zag that puppy.

ASW pilots...70 exp, 70 ASW skill. Fly at 2K and higher in targeted search arcs for both day and afternoon. 100% coverage of your major routes (day and night).

Hunter Killer E/SC to escort conovy, meet and merge, patrol, and check for subs outside of your ASW search.

Watch Run Silent Run Deep. Emulate with a 500 unit tanker as bait.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 9/25/2017 4:11:16 PM >

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Post #: 6

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/25/2017 5:41:35 PM

crsutton

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Lowpe pretty much has it all. It is not that hard. Plenty of air support and very large convoys. I don't think any Allied player can realistically hope to duplicate the Allies historical success in the game if the Japanese player is doing the right things. You are going to lose some ships though. Just have to accept that.

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Post #: 7

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/25/2017 5:49:56 PM

MakeeLearn

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quote:

CVE only docked at size 3 ports flying ASW.

Why? Why not sailing in the convoy?

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Post #: 8

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/25/2017 8:49:59 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Those guys' facial expressions are like "What kind of rubbish is written here? Seriously?"

As for ASW, an additional tip to all the good ones above is try to confine your routes to shallow water when possible. And be less predictable exiting major bases.
Airpower works great in antisub role for Japan. All those Sallies and Anns. You just have to invest time and resources to training and keep significant bomber numbers away frontlines

(in reply to MakeeLearn)

Post #: 9

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/26/2017 6:57:39 AM

Barb

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What works for me :)
1. Avoid subs by whatever means available - diverse routing, shallows, coastal runs, even stop the convoy at port and detach ASW for few turns to suppress the sub
2. if not possible to avoid then suppress - Naval Search, ASW, ASW TFs
3. if you really have to run by, have number of escorts along (4-10) to protect the shipping.

Anyhow I can tell that good and aggressive sub skippers will try to attack even in hard circumstances and against hard targets. Then its up to luck and die rolls.

(I am currently experiencing two different sub situations in PBEMs - I as Japan had mostly avoided the Allied subs - their results so far in the game were almost nill. In a game where I am Allies, the US subs are in combat about 4-8 times per turn usually sinking a ship or two with some duds and misses. I did lost about 10 subs in all (including old S-boats/Dutch) so far.

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Post #: 10

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/26/2017 4:30:35 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I've lost CVE Hosho, 3 DDs as of early Feb '43. I've lost about 110 ships/subs total, but at least one a day since '43 began. Yes, I know its not much, but I'm trying to figure out what else I can and should be doing.

Vary your routes.

Send ships in as enormous of a convoy as possible to concentrate your escorts. Back when it was safe to do so, I was running massive 80-ship (or more, the liquids carried by the various xAK/TK/AO in the TF was north of 600K) convoys with 4-5 AVs in there (not loaded with fuel, just in case) all running 9-plane Jake units on night/day search. A gaggle of E's and DDs to fill it out. Followed by the slow CVEs running 21 torpedo planes on dedicated ASW.

Larger convoys = fewer convoys = fewer sub contacts

Varying routes = he has to move his subs around more = he has to guess more = fewer sub contacts

Fewer sub contacts = fewer attacks = fewer losses

You know these things, but just keep it simple in your approach.

It also helps to put the fear of the 250-lb GP bomb in your opponent's subs. Run aerial ASW missions from nearly everywhere. It's mostly a deterrent, but they'll land the occasional bomb and force subs to RTB. The constant monitoring of subs for damage and the periodic loss of a sub will have an effect on your opponent.

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 11

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/26/2017 4:33:55 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

AD,AKE, AG on convoy routes.

CVE only docked at size 3 ports flying ASW.

Iboats can escort convoys too.

Give big convoys a task force commander..high naval low aggression. Maybe a CL.

Set convoys to low threat tolerance.

ASW pilots...70 exp, 70 ASW skill. Fly at 2K and higher in targeted search arcs for both day and afternoon. 100% coverage of your major routes (day and night).

Hunter Killer E/SC to escort conovy, meet and merge, patrol, and check for subs outside of your ASW search.

Watch Run Silent Run Deep. Emulate with a 500 unit tanker as bait.

I don't do these things, mostly because of the level of effort involved for minimal additional return. I will target arcs from bases, but not from AVs/CVEs - I prefer simply to saturate with random coverage, which is easy when you make the TFs big enough.

If your TF was spotted (DL 4/4, sometimes 4/5 or 5/5) then you probably also see the sub there - or did during the replay, but don't see it there now.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 12

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/27/2017 7:43:23 AM

adarbrauner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Iboats can escort convoys too.

Huh ???

Because of the hydro recon?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Give big convoys a task force commander..high naval low aggression. Maybe a CL.

Actually that's very realistic. I liked this advice very much.

ny59giants:

organize; organize your asw efforts. Do what the Japanese hadn't been doing for the whole of the war almost.

ASW training programs for air groups and squadrons. CVEs and CSs in ASW missions.

We have the huge at the 3rd exponential advantage of the whole Army bombers groups available for maritime naval duties, an unrealistic asset that close to guarantee neutralization of US sub threat for the whole of the war.

I strongly nerf the usage of Army air groups in maritime naval permanent duties and programs in my personal home rules (in exchange for suitable compensations from Allied side). The result is an allied sub warfare efficiency in game which is closing the real wartime one.

As Lokasenna has pointed out, the burden of managing organized sub warfare is absolutely prohibitive for the allied player, due the weak interface we are provided moment being...

for me, tracking and managing sub warfare, for Japan, is by far the heaviest and most consuming task. It MUST be easied.

< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 9/27/2017 8:57:50 AM >

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 13

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/27/2017 4:39:24 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Iboats can escort convoys too.

Huh ???
Because of the hydro recon?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Give big convoys a task force commander..high naval low aggression. Maybe a CL.

Actually that's very realistic. I liked this advice very much.

ny59giants:

organize; organize your asw efforts. Do what the Japanese hadn't been doing for the whole of the war almost.

ASW training programs for air groups and squadrons. CVEs and CSs in ASW missions.

We have the huge at the 3rd exponential advantage of the whole Army bombers groups available for maritime naval duties, an unrealistic asset that close to guarantee neutralization of US sub threat for the whole of the war.

I strongly nerf the usage of Army air groups in maritime naval permanent duties and programs in my personal home rules (in exchange for suitable compensations from Allied side). The result is an allied sub warfare efficiency in game which is closing the real wartime one.

As Lokasenna has pointed out, the burden of managing organized sub warfare is absolutely prohibitive for the allied player, due the weak interface we are provided moment being...

for me, tracking and managing sub warfare, for Japan, is by far the heaviest and most consuming task. It MUST be easied.

I think he means that they can use their float planes to help scout for subs. I'd rather use my I-boats for something else, truth be told.

I think in my current 10/1944 game I have maybe 6 IJAAF squadrons flying any kind of ASW. That might be an overestimate - I can actually only think of 2 locations off the top of my head. I did set them up early. The rest are all Navy. And Jakes do wonders.

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Post #: 14

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/27/2017 10:54:27 PM

mind_messing

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Japanese ASW is a two-step process.

1. Avoidance: Already been covered here - vary the routes up as much you can. The best way to avoid sinkings is to avoid subs.

2. Supression: Outright sinking subs is rare with the anemic IJN depth charges for most of the war, so I tend to depend on air power to keep subs away. Dedicated ASW hunter/killer task forces I feel aren't worth it - better to bulk up the escort on convoys.

Pull out the high EXP IJA bombing pilots in China and Manchuria and retrain them to ASW to give you a solid cadre of 60 EXP ASW pilots for the IJA bombers and supplement them with resized IJN floatplane squadrons split between NavS and ASW.

This should give you pretty respectable results - remember that you may not see many outright sinkings, but a 250kg GP bomb on a sub is a sure trip home.

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 15

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/28/2017 7:14:22 AM

adarbrauner

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Well if you're tasking the Navy Squadrons (not Jake) with ASW duty, so they are not performing anti surface duties. In 1944 it may be more viable than in previous years.

In any case this requires PDU on and a certain degree of quasi gamey tweaks such as in the composition of the floatplane units, I think..

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Post #: 16

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/28/2017 7:22:06 AM

Pentakomo

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ASW TF and convoy/TF on follow.

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Post #: 17

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/28/2017 1:34:36 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Japanese ASW is a two-step process.

1. Avoidance: Already been covered here - vary the routes up as much you can. The best way to avoid sinkings is to avoid subs.

2. Supression: Outright sinking subs is rare with the anemic IJN depth charges for most of the war, so I tend to depend on air power to keep subs away. Dedicated ASW hunter/killer task forces I feel aren't worth it - better to bulk up the escort on convoys.

Pull out the high EXP IJA bombing pilots in China and Manchuria and retrain them to ASW to give you a solid cadre of 60 EXP ASW pilots for the IJA bombers and supplement them with resized IJN floatplane squadrons split between NavS and ASW.

This should give you pretty respectable results - remember that you may not see many outright sinkings, but a 250kg GP bomb on a sub is a sure trip home.

Except that high XP pilots will be slow to crosstrain into ASW.

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Post #: 18

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/28/2017 1:42:11 PM

Chickenboy

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The only thing I haven't seen in this comprehensive list is the addition of a dedicated H/K SC/PB/DD TF with the convoy set to 'follow' behind a hex or two en route. I've seen a few instances of the H/K unit running over the sub and, if not damaging it, at least distracting it during that day's phases. Makes it easier to avoid for the follow on transport TF.

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Post #: 19

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/28/2017 1:45:20 PM

Encircled

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I had many smaller convoys (due to the danger of collisions), but on routes heavily covered by lots af air ASW

The big tanker convoys has the best ASW escorts (anything with anything better than a Type 95), a CVE and as many AVs as I could spare.

Like has been said, if your aircraft and ships are constantly threatening the subs, then he'll struggle to spend the time required to actually set up the subs to hurt you properly.

In my current games as the allies, I'm not getting bothered much by Japanese ASW and the results versus both the Japanese Merchant Marine and the IJN are very good indeed.

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Post #: 20

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/28/2017 1:51:34 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I need info on how best to conduct Japanese ASW efforts in early '43. My merchant fleet is the only place I'm getting hurt as 43 rolls along.
Need help!?!

Michael,

Did the game you cite involve an early KB strike on Manila or the traditional PH one? Wondering if taking those 25 Philippine subs out of the equation would help your early 1943 Allied sub problem...

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Post #: 21

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/28/2017 1:54:30 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Japanese ASW is a two-step process.

1. Avoidance: Already been covered here - vary the routes up as much you can. The best way to avoid sinkings is to avoid subs.

2. Supression: Outright sinking subs is rare with the anemic IJN depth charges for most of the war, so I tend to depend on air power to keep subs away. Dedicated ASW hunter/killer task forces I feel aren't worth it - better to bulk up the escort on convoys.

Pull out the high EXP IJA bombing pilots in China and Manchuria and retrain them to ASW to give you a solid cadre of 60 EXP ASW pilots for the IJA bombers and supplement them with resized IJN floatplane squadrons split between NavS and ASW.

This should give you pretty respectable results - remember that you may not see many outright sinkings, but a 250kg GP bomb on a sub is a sure trip home.

Except that high XP pilots will be slow to crosstrain into ASW.

I was under the impression that having higher EXP has no impact on skills training?

At any rate, I've not noticed it before and it's easy enough to build bomber EXP after the fact.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 22

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/28/2017 2:22:41 PM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
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ok touching ASW planes better to fly 100 or 1,000 feet...for years i have been flying 1k to 2k ta 3k.

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Post #: 23

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/28/2017 2:34:59 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

ok touching ASW planes better to fly 100 or 1,000 feet...for years i have been flying 1k to 2k ta 3k.

That has been a matter of debate for years. Some say they fly the missions at 6000 feet and detect subs just fine. Others say the lower the better for improved chances of getting an attack in (but limited spotting range).

I had a small horde of subs around one of my bases so I brought in about seven squadrons of aircraft to hunt them. I staggered the altitudes from 1000 to 6000 feet. To rule out ASW skill and experience as a factor I changed which squadrons were at what altitude day after day. The ones at 3000 feet were best at detecting the subs but there were too few attacks to draw a conclusion on that count.

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Post #: 24

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/29/2017 2:45:34 AM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Japanese ASW is a two-step process.

1. Avoidance: Already been covered here - vary the routes up as much you can. The best way to avoid sinkings is to avoid subs.

2. Supression: Outright sinking subs is rare with the anemic IJN depth charges for most of the war, so I tend to depend on air power to keep subs away. Dedicated ASW hunter/killer task forces I feel aren't worth it - better to bulk up the escort on convoys.

Pull out the high EXP IJA bombing pilots in China and Manchuria and retrain them to ASW to give you a solid cadre of 60 EXP ASW pilots for the IJA bombers and supplement them with resized IJN floatplane squadrons split between NavS and ASW.

This should give you pretty respectable results - remember that you may not see many outright sinkings, but a 250kg GP bomb on a sub is a sure trip home.

Except that high XP pilots will be slow to crosstrain into ASW.

I was under the impression that having higher EXP has no impact on skills training?

At any rate, I've not noticed it before and it's easy enough to build bomber EXP after the fact.

They have higher Exp so they 99% for sure have higher skills, and total skill rating seems to affect training. Cross-training once you have pilots in the 50s/60s for Exp with 1 or 2 skills pretty high is extremely slowed in comparison to pilots with 20s/30s for Exp and all skills under 40 or even under 30.

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Post #: 25

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/29/2017 3:34:59 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Japanese ASW is a two-step process.

1. Avoidance: Already been covered here - vary the routes up as much you can. The best way to avoid sinkings is to avoid subs.

2. Supression: Outright sinking subs is rare with the anemic IJN depth charges for most of the war, so I tend to depend on air power to keep subs away. Dedicated ASW hunter/killer task forces I feel aren't worth it - better to bulk up the escort on convoys.

Pull out the high EXP IJA bombing pilots in China and Manchuria and retrain them to ASW to give you a solid cadre of 60 EXP ASW pilots for the IJA bombers and supplement them with resized IJN floatplane squadrons split between NavS and ASW.

This should give you pretty respectable results - remember that you may not see many outright sinkings, but a 250kg GP bomb on a sub is a sure trip home.

Except that high XP pilots will be slow to crosstrain into ASW.

I was under the impression that having higher EXP has no impact on skills training?

At any rate, I've not noticed it before and it's easy enough to build bomber EXP after the fact.

They have higher Exp so they 99% for sure have higher skills, and total skill rating seems to affect training. Cross-training once you have pilots in the 50s/60s for Exp with 1 or 2 skills pretty high is extremely slowed in comparison to pilots with 20s/30s for Exp and all skills under 40 or even under 30.

A good indicator is the fact that pilots with 80+ EXP are the ones that can go to TRACOM to help improve training levels coming out of basic training. The designers obviously thought EXP should have a bearing on training.

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Post #: 26

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/30/2017 11:26:13 AM

InfiniteMonkey

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The attached image is the from the Pilot management Addendum with some annotation by me.

Experience and skill gain (number of Training Points gained per day) for pilots under 50 exp is maximized at:

4 parts flying bonus (requires full complement of aircraft),
2 parts leadership bonus,
2 parts group experience bonus,
1 part veteran bonus

The proportions are not exact (not enough testing to say with certainty), but an approximation based upon test results. The 4 parts from flying means they have to fly - aircraft availability and weather can impact this and make it 0-4 parts for a squadron. An individual pilot flies or doesn't, across a squadron, weather checks, aircraft availability, and ready checks can vary the number of pilots that fly on a given turn/ap-pm phase. You can identify the pilots that flew in the previous day by their Fatigue.

The reason why skill and exp gain appear to slow at 50 is that the Group Experience Bonus and Leader Bonus are no longer active after 50 COMBINED with the fact that Training Points required for an increase increase with level. According to the docs (see text underlined in Orange), you should be able to reactivate those past 50 by flying missions or getting kills, but my testing by flying missions to try to re-activate the bonuses did not seem to work.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 27

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/30/2017 3:33:09 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

ok touching ASW planes better to fly 100 or 1,000 feet...for years i have been flying 1k to 2k ta 3k.

Nobody has ever been able to confirm the best altitude. Which means that there probably is not one. I vary from 5,000 to 1,000 feet. Don't pay attention other than that.

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Post #: 28

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 9/30/2017 7:57:39 PM

sventhebold

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From: From MN now AZ Prescott Valley
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You need to look at your escort and ASW vessels. Look for the type of depth charges.
Type 95 useless unless in shallow water.
Type 95 Mod 2 are better
Type 2 much better
You need to look at the experience levels of the ASW units and put them together in H/K units with good captains and send them out to hunt the subs down. Using aircraft to sight them. Then send them in to suppress them or sink them once they get better at it.

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Post #: 29

RE: Japanese ASW Efforts - 10/1/2017 6:48:31 AM

adarbrauner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

ok touching ASW planes better to fly 100 or 1,000 feet...for years i have been flying 1k to 2k ta 3k.

Nobody has ever been able to confirm the best altitude. Which means that there probably is not one. I vary from 5,000 to 1,000 feet. Don't pay attention other than that.

1,2,3 k isn't that bad..

Sincerely, I think that over 6000 feet, to be grossly large, there should not be any probability to detect a surfaced not gigantic submarine in moderately bad weather-rough seas; I think I've been generous with the height.

AWSteve may chime and say something about.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 30