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RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome

 
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RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/23/2017 6:31:02 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

What exactly is so secret about fatigue/morale etc. that you always blacken them out HLYA?


hmmmm, they are whitened out ;-P hahahahahahahaha

Nothing secret. I just did it.


Yeah, a busy man like you takes the time to whiten everything out to hide nothing.

Thanks for the complement aar to dinglirs.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 9/23/2017 6:32:06 PM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 151
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/23/2017 6:33:27 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I just need to get my IL2's out and be on my way defending Moscow in the next two turns.


Is it correct to say the factories cannot be evacuated this turn? You can evacuate a factory in a ZOC, but rail does not work in a ZOC - and it looks like every rail exit is ZOCed? Or is this one of those cases where it does not quite work as the manual describes e.g. there is a working rail hex next to Voronezh to its north east even if there is no line directly between the two?



Factories can not be railed out from Voronezh at all this turn. Although, if I wanted to, I could rail out the ones in Stalino which has the exact same scenario, lol

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Post #: 152
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/23/2017 6:39:45 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I just need to get my IL2's out and be on my way defending Moscow in the next two turns.


Is it correct to say the factories cannot be evacuated this turn? You can evacuate a factory in a ZOC, but rail does not work in a ZOC - and it looks like every rail exit is ZOCed? Or is this one of those cases where it does not quite work as the manual describes e.g. there is a working rail hex next to Voronezh to its north east even if there is no line directly between the two?



Factories can not be railed out from Voronezh at all this turn. Although, if I wanted to, I could rail out the ones in Stalino which has the exact same scenario, lol


That is bizarre - there are only two rail exits both ZOCed. There is another rail hex next to it but without a connecting line - exactly the same! So how come they are different? I take it you are not about to reveal having pushed back one of the German units?

Perhaps the ZOC rail rule does not apply to urban hexes i.e. Makeevka?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 9/23/2017 6:41:00 PM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 153
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/23/2017 6:45:18 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I just need to get my IL2's out and be on my way defending Moscow in the next two turns.


Is it correct to say the factories cannot be evacuated this turn? You can evacuate a factory in a ZOC, but rail does not work in a ZOC - and it looks like every rail exit is ZOCed? Or is this one of those cases where it does not quite work as the manual describes e.g. there is a working rail hex next to Voronezh to its north east even if there is no line directly between the two?



Factories can not be railed out from Voronezh at all this turn. Although, if I wanted to, I could rail out the ones in Stalino which has the exact same scenario, lol


That is bizarre - there are only two rail exits both ZOCed. There is another rail hex next to it but without a connecting line - exactly the same! So how come they are different? I take it you are not about to reveal having pushed back one of the German units?


I am not at liberty to say either way with such high stacks hanging in the balance. I can say to stay tuned for the next turn update.


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Post #: 154
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/23/2017 6:51:27 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Status: offline 		The South was the calculated risk that Dinglir would lock down the industry in the Stalino area. Yes it will be bad to lose this industry but even without this industry, the Kursk industry and the Voronezh industry I will still be at 198 HI and 328 Arms. I decided on the previous turn no further industry from the tri-cities would be evacuated concentrating on getting ahead of the current German advance on evacuation. I should be more than fine for the rest of the game with 198/328 as long as no more surprises come my way.

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Post #: 155
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/23/2017 6:55:29 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

What exactly is so secret about fatigue/morale etc. that you always blacken them out HLYA?


hmmmm, they are whitened out ;-P hahahahahahahaha

Nothing secret. I just did it.


Yeah, a busy man like you takes the time to whiten everything out to hide nothing.

Thanks for the complement aar to dinglirs.


The credit goes to Dinglir for excellent write-ups. I just seem to be coloring with crayons here giving my 2 cents worth for what it is worth.

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Post #: 156
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/23/2017 6:57:01 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
The credit goes to Dinglir for excellent write-ups. I just seem to be coloring with crayons here giving my 2 cents worth for what it is worth.


Crayons, no spreadsheets - HardLuckYetAgain is a player from another age!

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Post #: 157
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/23/2017 7:06:03 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
The credit goes to Dinglir for excellent write-ups. I just seem to be coloring with crayons here giving my 2 cents worth for what it is worth.


Crayons, no spreadsheets - HardLuckYetAgain is a player from another age!


Ok, ok, ok, time for me to go back to my corner and color now ;-P

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Post #: 158
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/23/2017 9:07:01 PM   
Dinglir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Is it correct to say the factories cannot be evacuated this turn? You can evacuate a factory in a ZOC, but rail does not work in a ZOC - and it looks like every rail exit is ZOCed? Or is this one of those cases where it does not quite work as the manual describes e.g. there is a working rail hex next to Voronezh to its north east even if there is no line directly between the two?



As long as I have that Panzer adjacent to the only rail line out of Voronezh, HardLuck will be unable to evacuate any industries from the city. If the Panzers were in front of the city, evacuation could occur, but at double the normal cost.

When doing my turn, I had three divisions (the two Motorized ones in front of the city and the Panzer to it's east) coming up just short of actually being able to cut the rail line. If that had happened, the rail could not have been repaired until December.


< Message edited by Dinglir -- 9/23/2017 9:10:24 PM >

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Post #: 159
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/23/2017 9:43:10 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Is it correct to say the factories cannot be evacuated this turn? You can evacuate a factory in a ZOC, but rail does not work in a ZOC - and it looks like every rail exit is ZOCed? Or is this one of those cases where it does not quite work as the manual describes e.g. there is a working rail hex next to Voronezh to its north east even if there is no line directly between the two?



As long as I have that Panzer adjacent to the only rail line out of Voronezh, HardLuck will be unable to evacuate any industries from the city. If the Panzers were in front of the city, evacuation could occur, but at double the normal cost.

When doing my turn, I had three divisions (the two Motorized ones in front of the city and the Panzer to it's east) coming up just short of actually being able to cut the rail line. If that had happened, the rail could not have been repaired until December.



Yes at Voronezh I am not able to evacuate the industries. Exactly the same situation in Stalino but I am able to move the factories out of there. I did not though.

Yes, cutting the rail line and not being able to fix that line till Dec is yet "another" keep the Russian player down item built into the game.

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Post #: 160
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/23/2017 10:08:23 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Yes, cutting the rail line and not being able to fix that line till Dec is yet "another" keep the Russian player down item built into the game.



Just another item that the Germans can use in their arsenal to keep a factory from being moved. Sacrifice a pz/moto unit to cut the rail and prey on the Soviet unable to fix the darn rail until Dec. It is a hit below the belt but that is in the game and I have done it before myself. Really think the Soviets should be able to fix some rail before Dec.


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Post #: 161
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/24/2017 5:47:33 AM   
Dinglir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Just another item that the Germans can use in their arsenal to keep a factory from being moved. Sacrifice a pz/moto unit to cut the rail and prey on the Soviet unable to fix the darn rail until Dec. It is a hit below the belt but that is in the game and I have done it before myself. Really think the Soviets should be able to fix some rail before Dec.


I understand your point, and I agree to some degree. I find that the game often ends up being partly about "exploiting" game mechanics to the fullest.

However, from a production point of view, I find that the good Soviet player, such as yourself, has an understanding of what needs to be railed out and what can be left behind. That means that he/she will make sure the Soviets keep the required number of Armamanets/Heavy Industry that is needed to supply the Red Army. Named Industry will also be railed out well in advance of the Germans arriving.

That makes long range surprise attacks about the only way the Germns can hit the Soviet production system effectively. Cutting rail is an essential part of this tactic. Still, this strategy requires the Soviets to be caught off guard (as I believe you were in this instance). It would have taken no more than a screen of four or five shell divisions spread out in front of Voronezh to make this attack an impossibility alltogether. I we started the game over, I do not believe you would never make this attack and option for me again.

When playing as a noob against Pelton, I ended up producing armaments for the reserve pool by the winter and spring of 1942 - and that was after losing both Moscow and Leningrad. It required no more than 290 Armament factories and less than 200 Heavy Industry.

In short, I do not believe the Germans can win the game by disrupting the Soviet industry - IF the Soviet player is capable.

PS. In theory, the Soviets can repair rail before December. It requires that no Germans are within five hexes.

PPS. At Stalino, I believe my units are adjacent to the city (meaning double costs for evacuating) but not adjacent to every rail hex leading out of the city (meaning evacuation is possible).


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Post #: 162
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/24/2017 7:46:23 AM   
RKhan


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Status: offline 		Excellent game. I do enjoy seeing a match up of two good players. Thank you both for sharing the game with us.

RKhan

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Post #: 163
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/24/2017 11:51:23 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

I find that the good Soviet player, such as yourself



I am not that good of a player to be honest.

quote:


Still, this strategy requires the Soviets to be caught off guard (as I believe you were in this instance).


I make every effort every turn to track the German Armor & moto units. Even to lose as MANY recon as necessary in doing if I need to know where they could be (btw you can fill in recon by bombing units if you ever run out of recon planes, I'm sure people know this already) But I knew the disposition of the Panzers and Moto units. I used this knowledge of your PZ/Moto units location along with the calculations on the distance to your railhead to support an operation to Voronezh. I guessed you would not take the risk and thus I took the calculated risk of not moving the factories on turn 10 feeling that such an endevour probably would not work. So you are correct in that I was caught off guard in the sense that I didn't think you would attempt such an en devour, I was wrong. But I will keep a careful eye on you now!!!!!! ;-P

quote:



In short, I do not believe the Germans can win the game by disrupting the Soviet industry - IF the Soviet player is capable.


I concur with you on this Dinglir.

quote:



PS. In theory, the Soviets can repair rail before December. It requires that no Germans are within five hexes.



Yes, this is correct. But still stand by what I said earlier. (Are Soviet RR Engineer enept, stupid, and blind till Dec 41?)

quote:



PPS. At Stalino, I believe my units are adjacent to the city (meaning double costs for evacuating) but not adjacent to every rail hex leading out of the city (meaning evacuation is possible).



You are next to every rail line out of Stalino. If you look at Stalino there is no rail line directly east nor south east. Thus the rail line traverses NE and SW to get industry out & you have units next to both of these. What I believe is in effect is that the computer counts the hex east and south east as a connected rail line even though the hex shows now map printed rail connection. Or the program just checks for a rail line no matter if it is connected or not. If it is found to be "true" then the program allows for a move even though physically on the map it shows not connected is what I think is going on. (need a sub program in the code for special cases like this if this is the case in the program ;-)) See the large red X marked on the map. It is the same scenario as Voronezh although I could move the industry out of Stalino if I wanted to.





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 164
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/24/2017 12:01:52 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
You are next to every rail line out of Stalino. If you look at Stalino there is no rail line directly east nor south east. Thus the rail line traverses NE and SW to get industry out & you have units next to both of these. What I believe is in effect is that the computer counts the hex east and south east as a connected rail line even though the hex shows now map printed rail connection. Or the program just checks for a rail line no matter if it is connected or not. If it is found to be "true" then the program allows for a move even though physically on the map it shows not connected is what I think is going on. (need a sub program in the code for special cases like this if this is the case in the program ;-)) See the large red X marked on the map. It is the same scenario as Voronezh although I could move the industry out of Stalino if I wanted to.


The reason why I think this is not correct is because Voronezh also has an adjacent unconnected rail hex that is not ZOCed and yet it is blocked. My hypothesis is that originally ZOCing the industry in older versions did prevent its evacuation. But they then changed the code to allow evacuation for industry for cities in a later version - but this code change inadvertently left rail hexes in urban/city areas usable even if ZOCed. So the path through Makeevka is still available. That at least would provide an explanation why the Stalino industry could be evacuated, while also explaining why it cannot at Voronezh?

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 165
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/24/2017 12:05:54 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I just need to get my IL2's out and be on my way defending Moscow in the next two turns.


Is it correct to say the factories cannot be evacuated this turn? You can evacuate a factory in a ZOC, but rail does not work in a ZOC - and it looks like every rail exit is ZOCed? Or is this one of those cases where it does not quite work as the manual describes e.g. there is a working rail hex next to Voronezh to its north east even if there is no line directly between the two?



Factories can not be railed out from Voronezh at all this turn. Although, if I wanted to, I could rail out the ones in Stalino which has the exact same scenario, lol


That is bizarre - there are only two rail exits both ZOCed. There is another rail hex next to it but without a connecting line - exactly the same! So how come they are different? I take it you are not about to reveal having pushed back one of the German units?

Perhaps the ZOC rail rule does not apply to urban hexes i.e. Makeevka?


It is possible Telemecus that is the case with Makeevka. I gave another idea of what could be happening too in the post above. I'm sure Morvael will get to the bottom of it ;)

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Post #: 166
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/24/2017 12:07:38 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
You are next to every rail line out of Stalino. If you look at Stalino there is no rail line directly east nor south east. Thus the rail line traverses NE and SW to get industry out & you have units next to both of these. What I believe is in effect is that the computer counts the hex east and south east as a connected rail line even though the hex shows now map printed rail connection. Or the program just checks for a rail line no matter if it is connected or not. If it is found to be "true" then the program allows for a move even though physically on the map it shows not connected is what I think is going on. (need a sub program in the code for special cases like this if this is the case in the program ;-)) See the large red X marked on the map. It is the same scenario as Voronezh although I could move the industry out of Stalino if I wanted to.


The reason why I think this is not correct is because Voronezh also has an adjacent unconnected rail hex that is not ZOCed and yet it is blocked. My hypothesis is that originally ZOCing the industry in older versions did prevent its evacuation. But they then changed the code to allow evacuation for industry for cities in a later version - but this code change inadvertently left rail hexes in urban/city areas usable even if ZOCed. So the path through Makeevka is still available. That at least would provide an explanation why the Stalino industry could be evacuated, while also explaining why it cannot at Voronezh?


Yes, I think that very well could be the case Telemecus. Great observation as always. Will be interesting to find out when Morvael gets to the bottom of it.

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Post #: 167
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/24/2017 12:10:47 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Will be interesting to find out when Morvael gets to the bottom of it.


Could be another exploit they want to fix that you spotted - if so I am sure they will appreciate it. Although probably nothing major in the big scheme of things.


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 9/24/2017 12:11:39 PM >

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Post #: 168
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/24/2017 1:01:22 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir



That makes long range surprise attacks about the only way the Germns can hit the Soviet production system effectively. Cutting rail is an essential part of this tactic.



My spider senses are going off. I bet you are doing another "long range" attack for your next turn (16). I can feel it in the wording. Let me see if my spider senses are correct when I get the turn back.

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Post #: 169
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/24/2017 3:27:15 PM   
Dinglir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
My spider senses are going off. I bet you are doing another "long range" attack for your next turn (16). I can feel it in the wording. Let me see if my spider senses are correct when I get the turn back.


Well, without getting ahead of the AAR, I can reveal that you have not yet given much thought to the defense of Baku.....

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Post #: 170
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/24/2017 3:53:54 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
My spider senses are going off. I bet you are doing another "long range" attack for your next turn (16). I can feel it in the wording. Let me see if my spider senses are correct when I get the turn back.


Well, without getting ahead of the AAR, I can reveal that you have not yet given much thought to the defense of Baku.....


Hmmmmm, that is the 2nd time you mentioned Baku in this AAR..... Last time you mentioned Baku you did a mad dash for Voronezh...... Is there a similar fate yet again close at hand for this turn? hmmmmmm Spider sense ringing like crazy!

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Post #: 171
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/29/2017 8:24:29 PM   
Dinglir


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Post #: 172
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/29/2017 8:54:09 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Status: offline 		My favourite AAR of the moment keep it up both of you!

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Post #: 173
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/30/2017 5:09:15 AM   
Dinglir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

My favourite AAR of the moment keep it up both of you!


The main problem these days are that thing called "Real Life". I simply have to little time on my hands to play this game. I refuse to play when nackered, as that would just mean moving cardboard pieces around the map more or less randomly.

That means that the number of turns will not be so high pr week as in other reports.

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Post #: 174
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/30/2017 9:45:43 AM   
tyronec


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Status: offline 		'Personally, I have serious doubts in my ability to take the city'.

Don't give up on a strong assault towards Moscow. I think you could have taken Leningrad if you had continued to push hard, remember part of HardLuck's strategy is psychological warfare to paralyse his opponents. He has some strong divisions in front of Moscow but take them out and he also a lot of weak stuff. Get your good SU's down to where the main action is. Five hexes in 4 turns, plus the snow, and are you playing random weather so could get lucky there ?

Am not experienced enough to know, but can Axis win if they fail to take either Leningrad or Moscow in '41 ?

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Post #: 175
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/30/2017 10:19:57 AM   
Telemecus


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ORIGINAL: tyronec
Am not experienced enough to know, but can Axis win if they fail to take either Leningrad or Moscow in '41 ?


I have sometimes pondered whether a narrow front strategy in the south is possible. Four panzer groups with buildups and airdrops all the way to Stalingrad in 1941? I imagine rushing a lot of the industry in the south "could" be more damaging than either Moscow or Leningrad. But I have not seen it done and I guess if you did the maths it would not be as good. In which case then it would have to be either Moscow or Lgrad.

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Post #: 176
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/30/2017 10:28:01 AM   
tyronec


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Am not experienced enough to know, but can Axis win if they fail to take either Leningrad or Moscow in '41 ?


I have sometimes pondered whether a narrow front strategy in the south is possible. Four panzer groups with buildups and airdrops all the way to Stalingrad in 1941? I imagine rushing a lot of the industry in the south "could" be more damaging than either Moscow or Leningrad. But I have not seen it done and I guess if you did the maths it would not be as good. In which case then it would have to be either Moscow or Lgrad.


Doesn't sound like a sound strategy under these circumstances; exposed flanks too long especially with the '+1'. Perhaps if Axis had made a killing first part of '41 and already taken Leningrad AND the maths worked out it could be interesting to try.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 177
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/30/2017 11:03:05 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Five hexes in 4 turns, plus the snow, and are you playing random weather so could get lucky there ?



Not as easy as it looks, I can tell you that having been on both sides of the fence.

_____________________________


(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 178
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/30/2017 11:04:01 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Am not experienced enough to know, but can Axis win if they fail to take either Leningrad or Moscow in '41 ?


Yes, the Axis can still pull out a win

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(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 179
RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, ... - 9/30/2017 11:07:11 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Am not experienced enough to know, but can Axis win if they fail to take either Leningrad or Moscow in '41 ?


I have sometimes pondered whether a narrow front strategy in the south is possible. Four panzer groups with buildups and airdrops all the way to Stalingrad in 1941? I imagine rushing a lot of the industry in the south "could" be more damaging than either Moscow or Leningrad. But I have not seen it done and I guess if you did the maths it would not be as good. In which case then it would have to be either Moscow or Lgrad.



With the extra FBD in the South this is possible now yet again in the game. With correct timing I believe it can be done. But imho you would have to pressure all three areas of the map because 1 one trick pony is easy to read on direction.

_____________________________


(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 180
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