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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815 >> Uniforms to correct some mistakes

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Uniforms to correct some mistakes - 5/17/2003 5:21:56 PM

Rafel

Posts: 17
Joined: 5/17/2003
Status: offline

I want to contribuite to know de real spanish uniform during the napoleonic wars and I send you this page just for your information. See you in the stores.

http://www.hstmil1805-14.com/e1805_2.html[/URL]
:rolleyes:

You can find there the uniform of all line regiments of regular spanish army and if you surf around this web you will find all others uniforms of complete army.

_____________________________

My apologies, but more than 10 years without speak, read and of course, write in english.

Post #: 1

- 5/17/2003 9:19:50 PM

Le Tondu

Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

Thanks Rafel. What year was it that they stopped wearing the bicorne?

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Vive l'Empereur!

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Post #: 2

- 5/18/2003 5:20:31 AM

Rafel

Posts: 17
Joined: 5/17/2003
Status: offline

Ejem, excuse me, what you can see in the pictures is a bicorne, what you show in your figures is a tricorne, use by the civil guard, a military corp destined to proctect the civil order, created at september 1, 1844, by the Queen Elisabeth, this date was the first time that the tricorne was used by foot troops.
The uniform you see in the pictures just change the color of the lapel and the coat-cuff, which depends of the regiment. And is the official uniform of the army at 1805. You can read in the tittle: "Military State at 1805" "Line infantery", and under each picture: "king infantery regiment", "queen infantery regiment", "princep inf.reg.", etc...

the page below you can see the uniforms of foreigner troops, light infantery, artillery and engineers.
[URL]http://www.hstmil1805-14.com/e1805_3.html[/URL]

Various corps
[URL]http://www.hstmil1805-14.com/e1805_5.html[/URL]

Cavalry:
http://www.hstmil1805-14.com/e1805_4.html

and royal house troops (guards):
http://www.hstmil1805-14.com/e1805_1.html

I'm sorry if I correct you ...:confused:

_____________________________

My apologies, but more than 10 years without speak, read and of course, write in english.

(in reply to Rafel)

Post #: 3

Yes indeed. - 5/18/2003 10:41:32 AM

Le Tondu

Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

Good eye Rafel.

_____________________________

Vive l'Empereur!

(in reply to Rafel)

Post #: 4

- 5/19/2003 3:17:59 AM

Rafel

Posts: 17
Joined: 5/17/2003
Status: offline

Thanks a lots, if I can help you anymore, tell me, and if my english is enough good I'll help you.
On the other hand, I'm waiting for your game, with anxiety:eek:

My congratuletions for your project, I'll be the first to buy it in Spain, ... or the second, ... or the third, or ..., never mind I'll buy it when you'll sell it. See you in Valencia, Spain. ;)

_____________________________

My apologies, but more than 10 years without speak, read and of course, write in english.

(in reply to Rafel)

Post #: 5

- 5/20/2003 9:04:55 PM

demonterico

Posts: 292
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Seattle WA
Status: offline

Great plates Rafel,
I'm glad to see that someone is taking an interest in the Spanish army which I've found in the past has suffered from neglect and disinterest in other Napolionic games.

One example of this is that the Provincial Malitia units are lumped together with the newer hastily formed militia units of 1808. The Provincials were formed in 1804, and were organized, equiped and trained pretty much like regular army units. More importantly they were maintained by the individual provinces and therefore didn't suffer from the coruptions of Godoy like the regular army units did. In fact in many cases the Provincial militias were better units than the regulars.

I realize these details may be to small for EIA to incorperate but I get tired of seeing The Spanish Army being neglected in game design and being presented as a mass of worthless militia. It is really quite an interesting army with many levels of quality, and many different troop types.

Hey Rafel, I've got a question for you. What color did the Spanish artillery corp paint their gun carriages and caissons? I've never been able to find a satisfactory answer to this question.

Spanish unifiorms changed alot during the Napolionic wars but the 1805 uniform is a good starting point. The 1808 militia units which were hastily formed by anyone and his brother introduced a hodge podge of new uniforms ranging from the gaudy and ridicules to the very plain. During the later war years an attempt was made to restandardize and modernize the armies uniforms and here the British influence can be seen.

I like Rafel hope to see the Spanish Army receive accurate depiction in EIA and will be happy to provide any help I can to support this. Thanks for your interest, Dave

Viva Espana!

_____________________________

The world has never seen a more impressive demonstration of the influence of sea power upon history. Those far distant, storm-beaten ships, upon which the Grand Army never looked, stood between it and the dominion of the world. -- Alfred Thayer Mahan

(in reply to Rafel)

Post #: 6

- 5/22/2003 12:28:53 AM

Rafel

Posts: 17
Joined: 5/17/2003
Status: offline

Thanks Demonterico.
You can see in this page the artillery uniform, in the fifth line you can see "Oficial de Artiller�a" translated to "Artillery officer", and the next is "Soldado de Artiller�a" = "Artillery soldier", and in the next line, the first picture it's a "artilleria volante" that means some about ""flying" or "unsettled" artillery" it means a mobile artillery corp. The uniform is all cases blue, the artillery has the typical bicorne, and the mobile artillery has a .... "hat" �? :confused: I don't the name of that "hat". Respect the others opinions, tonight I answer you. :D

[URL]http://www.hstmil1805-14.com/e1805_3.html[/URL]

_____________________________

My apologies, but more than 10 years without speak, read and of course, write in english.

(in reply to Rafel)

Post #: 7

- 5/22/2003 9:20:26 PM

demonterico

Posts: 292
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Seattle WA
Status: offline

Hi Rafel,
Thanks for the information. Although I was curious about the color of the paint used on Spanish artillery equipment. I already have information on the uniforms. During the Napolionic Wars each nation had a unique color they used to paint their equipment. The French used a color call ocher (kind of an olive green) the British used grey, the Austrians yellow, the Prussians light blue, the Russians green, ect. However, after 25 years as a student of the war of liberation I have yet to find out what color paint was used by the Spainsh. I appreciate your effort to help me, muchas gracias,
Dave

PS I'm going out of town for a couple of days. I'll check in with you when I get back.

_____________________________

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Post #: 8

- 5/23/2003 5:21:58 AM

Rafel

Posts: 17
Joined: 5/17/2003
Status: offline

"De nada"; Excuse me if I didn't answer your question at all, but I wish to tell you the next question and I promise you look for artillery paint but it's very difficult to find it
You are seeing the pre-war uniform. During the war, ("independence war" for us, not "liberation war", although in some lands of the country is named "the frenchman war" -literal translation of "la guerra del fran��s" in valencian-catalonian language-), from 1808 to 1812-13, the uniform was turning to a free uniform, because all infraestructures was in hands of french and after some marchs and battles the uniform is detiorated and it has been reemplaced in different cities and territories, who have different factories and products, etc., ... even more, ussually the uniforms were protected against the daily wear, and the pants were the normal civil pants in marchs, trainings and manoeuvres (it's correct translation :confused: ?). Well, maybe you know more than me in this aspect.
About the militias, always we (the spanish) remember that the first army who win the frech army was the spanish regular army and some militia in Bailen in 1808, commanded by Casta�os, in the second battle of the war, this general that I think in the game is overvaluated, it was the unique important battle that he won.
What I know about the spanish army of 1808 to 1814, it's that the sp army was defeated in all great land combats, except some glorious exception (Bailen), until Napoleon atacked Russia, then the spanish, with the british help of course, regain the offensive in the war. We are in mind that the most important battles were won with british commands, but with more spanish than british, except in Portugal of course, but the history are written by the victor, in this case the britts.
Although this great battles were decisives, compared with the great battles of the rest of continent ..., well I think is better no comparations. The principal characteristic of the Peninsular War was the "guerrillas" or partisans, they were who defeat the french, not the regular army or militias.
The volunteers, added to the regular army (you can say militia, or provincial army, I say regular army) were another characteristic, but I think less important that the guerrillas.
Other thing important of the war, I think were the lack of prudence and the excess of impetus of principal spanish leaders front a more experienced frech leaders (the british leaders were incompetents as spanish, included Wellington in the first stage of war, look Burgos siege commanded by him), and in the game, some leaders as La Romana or Blake are infravaluated, IMHO.
If you can read some spanish, look this chronology of the battles of Peninsular War:
[URL]http://members.tripod.com/~gie1808a1814/batallas/batablon.htm[/URL]

See you, Dave.

_____________________________

My apologies, but more than 10 years without speak, read and of course, write in english.

(in reply to Rafel)

Post #: 9

- 5/23/2003 8:00:30 PM

Reknoy

Posts: 190
Joined: 11/26/2002
Status: offline

Don't apologize. The meaning gets across -- which is saying a lot more than if I tried the same in Spanish!! :)

I'm now lurking in wait to see the answer to the equipment paint question!! :)

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Post #: 10

- 5/24/2003 2:31:57 AM

Rafel

Posts: 17
Joined: 5/17/2003
Status: offline

I'm sorry, but the equipment paint of spanish artillery is really difficult to find it for me, because I'm not enthusiast to miniatures. But, I'll try to find it! If it's necessary I look for it in libraries, museums, etc ... until I find it.

_____________________________

My apologies, but more than 10 years without speak, read and of course, write in english.

(in reply to Rafel)

Post #: 11

- 5/24/2003 11:24:40 PM

demonterico

Posts: 292
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Seattle WA
Status: offline

Hola Rafel,
First let me say that I agree with Reknoy, you do not need to apologize for your english. Let me assure you my Spanish is much worse. Whats important here is that we are communicating and understanding each other. We're building a bridge across which we can share interests, and meet new friends. If we lack the ability to communicate prefectly in another language, well that just irrelevant. I appreciate the fact that you are making the effort to communicate in english, because if I had to do it in Spanish I'm sorry to say we would already be finished.

Rafel, please do not trouble yourself to much trying to answer my question about the artillery paint. Of course I'm curious about it, but I can't expect you to spend your time researching this question for me. I was just hoping you might know the answer.

The Spanish Army of the Napolionic Wars has always been my favorite of that era. My 15mm Spanish Army is my largest miniatures army with about 2000 figures. Currently I paint my guns white, not because I have any histroical information to indicate that this is correct, but because I like it. The white carriages with the brass guns look good with the rest of the army in their white uniforms.

Wargamers here have much neglected the Spanish Army, I think mainly due to the bad press it received from the British writers. In almost 30 years of wargaming I've only known of two other persons who have built Spanish Armies. This is most unfortunate as the Spanish Army deserves better. Its true they didn't win alot of battles but they did fight the French for seven years without quiting, and in the end the French were the losers. Yes its true the British played a big roll in the war but the Spanish were still the main player. By the end the French had lost 250,000 men in Spain. This was no small thing.

I love playing Spain in EIA. Few players realize what a potentually powerful country Spain is. Spain's primary problem during the war was poor leadership. In a wargame this problem instantly disappears, or at least hopefully it does, as the player is now the leader of Spain and is able to take an interest in running the country and war properly. Also overlooked is the fact that Spain is a seapower rather than a land power, and if done properly the British navy can be defeated resulting in The Spainish Navy becoming the dominant navy in the game. If this happens watch out. After all it was the British Navy that won the Napolionic Wars. "Those far distant, storm-beaten ships, upon which the Grand Army never looked, stood between it and dominion of the world." * So if Spain can gain control of the seas, "the master of the seas is master of the situation." **

Un abrzos Rafel, Dave

* Alfred Thayer Mahan [U]The Influence of Seapower[/U]
** Barbra W. Tuchman [U]The Guns of August[/U]

_____________________________

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Post #: 12

- 5/29/2003 3:58:00 AM

Rafel

Posts: 17
Joined: 5/17/2003
Status: offline

Well, try this page, it is part of a Military Corunna museum in Spain, there you can see a miniature of artillery ammunition carriage, maybe is that you are seeking.
[URL]http://www.ihycm.com/ihycm/museos/coruna/coru22.jpg[/URL] :p

_____________________________

My apologies, but more than 10 years without speak, read and of course, write in english.

(in reply to Rafel)

Post #: 13

- 5/29/2003 8:51:26 PM

demonterico

Posts: 292
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Seattle WA
Status: offline

Thanks Rafel,
George Nafziger once told me that Spanish equipment was yellow but at the time had no evidence to validate this information. This picture does corroborate what he told me long ago. I appreaciate your efforts on my behalf.
Viva Espana!

_____________________________

(in reply to Rafel)

Post #: 14

- 5/30/2003 1:56:13 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by demonterico
[B]Hola Rafel,
First let me say that I agree with Reknoy, you do not need to apologize for your english. Let me assure you my Spanish is much worse. Whats important here is that we are communicating and understanding each other. We're building a bridge across which we can share interests, and meet new friends. If we lack the ability to communicate prefectly in another language, well that just irrelevant. I appreciate the fact that you are making the effort to communicate in english, because if I had to do it in Spanish I'm sorry to say we would already be finished.

Rafel, please do not trouble yourself to much trying to answer my question about the artillery paint. Of course I'm curious about it, but I can't expect you to spend your time researching this question for me. I was just hoping you might know the answer.

The Spanish Army of the Napolionic Wars has always been my favorite of that era. My 15mm Spanish Army is my largest miniatures army with about 2000 figures. Currently I paint my guns white, not because I have any histroical information to indicate that this is correct, but because I like it. The white carriages with the brass guns look good with the rest of the army in their white uniforms.

Wargamers here have much neglected the Spanish Army, I think mainly due to the bad press it received from the British writers. In almost 30 years of wargaming I've only known of two other persons who have built Spanish Armies. This is most unfortunate as the Spanish Army deserves better. Its true they didn't win alot of battles but they did fight the French for seven years without quiting, and in the end the French were the losers. Yes its true the British played a big roll in the war but the Spanish were still the main player. By the end the French had lost 250,000 men in Spain. This was no small thing.

I love playing Spain in EIA. Few players realize what a potentually powerful country Spain is. Spain's primary problem during the war was poor leadership. In a wargame this problem instantly disappears, or at least hopefully it does, as the player is now the leader of Spain and is able to take an interest in running the country and war properly. Also overlooked is the fact that Spain is a seapower rather than a land power, and if done properly the British navy can be defeated resulting in The Spainish Navy becoming the dominant navy in the game. If this happens watch out. After all it was the British Navy that won the Napolionic Wars. "Those far distant, storm-beaten ships, upon which the Grand Army never looked, stood between it and dominion of the world." * So if Spain can gain control of the seas, "the master of the seas is master of the situation." **

Un abrzos Rafel, Dave

* Alfred Thayer Mahan [U]The Influence of Seapower[/U]
** Barbra W. Tuchman [U]The Guns of August[/U] [/B][/QUOTE]

I too have a 15mm Spanish "Corps" mounted for Empire. 37 bns of infantry plus arty and cav (not nearly your 2000 figs though). Love to play my Spanaird Corps!

I also have the entire Portuguese Army from 1811 for Empire.

More allies than I actully have Brits!

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Rafel)

Post #: 15

- 6/11/2003 3:28:52 PM

Bromley

Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2002
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by demonterico
[B]Thanks Rafel,
George Nafziger once told me that Spanish equipment was yellow but at the time had no evidence to validate this information. This picture does corroborate what he told me long ago. I appreaciate your efforts on my behalf.
Viva Espana! [/B][/QUOTE]

This probably isn't what you wanted, but two lists that I found say "dark grey or stained". Of course, they look like they're both generated from the same source, although I found one via Groups and one via Web when I was Googling :) .

Neither is from a published work.

[URL=http://miniatures.de/html/int/colourNapArt.html]Military Miniatures Magazine[/URL]

[URL=http://my.erinet.com/~bp/pt_napca.html]Ray Trochim[/URL]

(in reply to Rafel)

Post #: 16