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German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 2:35:44 PM

xxCLASHxx

Posts: 33
Joined: 8/7/2017
From: England
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As a noob I would like a little input on expected results.

I am on my first server multiplayer and have had a series of results where the Russians seem impossible to break down.

Of course you have to expect some results not to go to plan but this was 5 major attacks on a single line with all results 'Held'. Am I missing something, this is turn 7.

Looking forward to input.

Thanks

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RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 3:12:41 PM

xxCLASHxx

Posts: 33
Joined: 8/7/2017
From: England
Status: offline

Here is another one, that is 7 battles where Germany lost every one so I am doing something dramatically wrong here as I also used the 'set battle' option rather than the adhoc battle command :(

Really appreciate some pro help from the community, thanks.

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Post #: 2

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 4:16:36 PM

Nix77

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline

First battle is over a minor river, so expected result is around (24+13)/2:23 = 18:23. So the result is about right.

Second attack is over a major river. Expected result against evenly matched commanders is around (25+19)/3:14 => 1:1, which is very close to what you got.

Notice I mentioned "evenly matched commanders". Then check your opponents commander. Zhukov is probably the most obvious explanation for the results, he's the best Soviet commander and leaders are a huge factor in the battles. You even had Army Group level commanded infantry in battle, that's a big malus. You need to put them to corps for best effect.

PS. Your commander is someone called... "Wodrig"? :)

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 10/8/2017 4:23:38 PM >

(in reply to xxCLASHxx)

Post #: 3

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 4:19:42 PM

Sammy5IsAlive

Posts: 514
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline

As a very general rule of thumb you need your combat values to be twice that of the defenders (four times when you are crossing a minor river, 6 times crossing a major river). In both attacks your unmodified CV is smaller than that of the defenders. So they really are pretty much doomed to failure from the beginning.

Just a few thoughts on what you could to improve your chances...

1) Your Panzers are in the wrong place, they need to be at Pskov where there is easier terrain and more room for maneuver.
2) Especially in the first battle where you are crossing a river into fortified positions you need Pioneer support units. You can attach them directly to the divisions to make sure they are used. Similarly in the second battle you are using the bicycle battalion and a SP Gun Company - these are two of the weakest SUs and you really should get them up to AGN so there is no risk of them getting committed ahead of a better SU.
3) You don't have any air support - is it turned off? Getting the airforce to support your attacks is a really important way to get attacks that might not be at that 2-1 rule of thumb to succeed regardless.
4) You want to avoid having ground combat units with white 'centers' as this means they are still under a high level (OKH/AG) command. You need to reassign them to Corps HQs.
5) You have six divisions stacked West of the Peipus/Pskov lakes. Remember that the blue lines means a hex-side is 'inaccessible'. So the 19-50 stack cannot attack and is not needed there for defence. The crossing that there is (i.e. the one used by your 25-5 stack to attack) is a major river and the defending hex is a swamp. So you don't ever want to be attacking there - just leave a division (or even a regiment once you have some fortifications going) to defend the crossing and use the units elsewhere.

Keep going though - the only way to learn is through making mistakes!

(in reply to xxCLASHxx)

Post #: 4

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 5:41:46 PM

xxCLASHxx

Posts: 33
Joined: 8/7/2017
From: England
Status: offline

To Sammy and Nix - There are two things here, the first is why I think so highly of the community because when asked for help and needing specific knowledge the support fantastic. I understand just how much more I need to learn but that knowledge will push the parameters of the game further with yet still so much more depth to learn. It is like a cycle where each time you get to a level it reveals more.

Secondly I have had good success verses AI with these mistakes, attacking with a bicycle battalion lol my opponent must be smiling at my mistakes whilst not mocking me about my shortcomings.

Would love any further observations but I already have much to research, the identifying and attachment of units, chain of command etc.

I imagine the initiative is now lost for this game but it will be a valuable learning curve as i play it out.

Thank you for your time.

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)

Post #: 5

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 6:28:54 PM

Stelteck

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline

A few setback are not critical for germany in 1941, you are still very strong until 1943.

Do not loose hope to improve and adapt.

(in reply to xxCLASHxx)

Post #: 6

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 7:38:56 PM

xxCLASHxx

Posts: 33
Joined: 8/7/2017
From: England
Status: offline

Hi Stelteck, I didn't stipulate this is the Road to Leningrad scenario, so only about 7 turns left.

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Post #: 7

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 7:41:15 PM

Stelteck

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Ho s�re i understand now.

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Post #: 8

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 7:56:14 PM

xxCLASHxx

Posts: 33
Joined: 8/7/2017
From: England
Status: offline

Ahh now have an error with the upload, anyone with any suggestions please, Laptop went flat during the turn but other than that there has been no issues.

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Post #: 9

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 8:02:17 PM

Stelteck

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
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It is a matrix server connection issue. I had it too but now it looks fixed.

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Post #: 10

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 8:16:08 PM

boudi

Posts: 346
Joined: 1/7/2007
From: France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

First battle is over a minor river, so expected result is around (24+13)/2:23 = 18:23. So the result is about right.

Second attack is over a major river. Expected result against evenly matched commanders is around (25+19)/3:14 => 1:1, which is very close to what you got.

What are these numbers ? I can't find any 24, 13 or 23 in the 1st screen ?

Edit : find them on the counters on the map.

it's the off/def CV.

< Message edited by boudi -- 10/8/2017 8:19:40 PM >

(in reply to Nix77)

Post #: 11

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/8/2017 8:42:27 PM

xxCLASHxx

Posts: 33
Joined: 8/7/2017
From: England
Status: offline

upload sorted

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Post #: 12

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/9/2017 3:41:10 PM

Crackaces

Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

As a very general rule of thumb you need your combat values to be twice that of the defenders (four times when you are crossing a minor river, 6 times crossing a major river). In both attacks your unmodified CV is smaller than that of the defenders. So they really are pretty much doomed to failure from the beginning.

Just a few thoughts on what you could to improve your chances...

1) Your Panzers are in the wrong place, they need to be at Pskov where there is easier terrain and more room for maneuver.
2) Especially in the first battle where you are crossing a river into fortified positions you need Pioneer support units. You can attach them directly to the divisions to make sure they are used. Similarly in the second battle you are using the bicycle battalion and a SP Gun Company - these are two of the weakest SUs and you really should get them up to AGN so there is no risk of them getting committed ahead of a better SU.
3) You don't have any air support - is it turned off? Getting the airforce to support your attacks is a really important way to get attacks that might not be at that 2-1 rule of thumb to succeed regardless.
4) You want to avoid having ground combat units with white 'centers' as this means they are still under a high level (OKH/AG) command. You need to reassign them to Corps HQs.
5) You have six divisions stacked West of the Peipus/Pskov lakes. Remember that the blue lines means a hex-side is 'inaccessible'. So the 19-50 stack cannot attack and is not needed there for defence. The crossing that there is (i.e. the one used by your 25-5 stack to attack) is a major river and the defending hex is a swamp. So you don't ever want to be attacking there - just leave a division (or even a regiment once you have some fortifications going) to defend the crossing and use the units elsewhere.

Keep going though - the only way to learn is through making mistakes!

If I might add (I am a newbie at this but I am getting some excellent feedback in the team game where I am running the German North)... there are 2 German Corps The I and the II Corps that have the highest exp and morale .. those are the units for river busting the 30th inf can join I corps and optimize.
I unit bomb before trying to cross a river .. not for casualties but to raise detection levels to maximum before things get going .. find the weakest link (there are limits on recon)
Place units in hexes behind in reserve mode with HQ's with applicable SU. If a unit passes the reserve check .. it might bring even more SU to the fray.

I find GG games to pit opponents' master of details with the one that grasps these details having a decided advantage. Many of these details are not well explained in the manual.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)

Post #: 13

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/10/2017 11:06:05 AM

xxCLASHxx

Posts: 33
Joined: 8/7/2017
From: England
Status: offline

Crackaces - Thanks for that insight, I am putting everything into practice and so my next game should be a bit more controlled than the current one.

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Post #: 14

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/10/2017 1:25:48 PM

timmyab

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline

You need approximately a 2:1 attack to give you a good chance of success as the Axis player. A 2:1 attack will succeed about 90% + of the time. In this case that's 92 CV

. The odds of success fall off steadily as you head down towards 1:1. Maybe 50% at 1:1? Or even less, I don't know but it's noticeably tougher. Throw in Zhukov and things get ugly. You'll want a good leader like Model to give you a chance of a x3 or x4 CV shift. Plenty of support units too, especially pioneers attached directly to the divisions. Most of those divisions should be under one corps HQ, the others should belong to the same army. Use APs to swap divisions if necessary. Keep all participating HQs below their command limits. Keep the army HQ nearby. Make use of offensive reserves where possible. Make sure Lufwaffe units are near and combat support is switched on.

Generally speaking try to attack weakness where possible, i.e. further South in this case.
An all out attack through Estonia towards the Narva land bridge is nearly always a bad idea.
4th pz group should attack towards Pskov with maximum speed. Once Pskov is taken (turn 4 ish) you can either drive straight at Leningrad (most common) or do a wide right hook through Staraya Russa.
There's also an alternative to send 4th pz group East through Velekie Luki. This Moscow first strategy works better in some iterations of the game than others, depending on HQ buildup limitations etc.

(in reply to xxCLASHxx)

Post #: 15

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/12/2017 9:30:02 AM

xxCLASHxx

Posts: 33
Joined: 8/7/2017
From: England
Status: offline

More great advice and insight, I had changed 3 commanders and Model is one of the three, reorganised units to corps level and now looking at how to attach pioneers, irritated that I am unable to drop supplies but learnoing more each move.

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Post #: 16

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/12/2017 2:18:47 PM

Nuklearius

Posts: 11
Joined: 9/4/2017
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Well if you are new, playing against Human players might not be the best idea to learn basic game mechanics. I'd advise to play as Soviets in the 1941 scenario as they are very forgiving and give time to properly grasp some concepts. In your second image you have lanuched an attack over a river into a Swamp area. Adding to these you got a mediocre general, troops under OKN command (which divides their combat value by factor 4) and pointless reserves sitting next to the attack...

One thing that maybe even more important is that an attack in this area gives you basically nothing and is very costly at the same time. Swamps and Rivers are the biggest friend of the Soviet Player, you always want to avoid them! Even if you would have pushed through your CPs might not allow for additional attacks or movements. There is no rail line, so supply would become an issue as well. So by the time you left the swamps the Soviet Player has railed in tons of reinforcements and delayed your attacks by atleast 2 turns.

The correct way to go about this is to bash through Pskov with everything you got (best SUs, best commanders, all of your Panzers...) and then try to push north to Baltic. The Soviet Player will have to abandon both the Swamps and the Estonia Defense Line, otherwise he is at risk of being cut off.

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Post #: 17

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/12/2017 2:23:32 PM

morvael

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From: Poland
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Meanwhile I was able to successfully isolate, and later capture Leningrad, by going through Narva with 4th Panzer Group against a human player. With help of 3rd Panzer Group going north from Velikiye Luki, they have managed to encircle Soviet defenders of the Luga river line.
But if you have only one group, it's better to go the usual way through Pskov.

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Post #: 18

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/12/2017 4:20:14 PM

xxCLASHxx

Posts: 33
Joined: 8/7/2017
From: England
Status: offline

I played a number of times against the AI and did ok making these mistakes, a human player punishes you for poor experience and knowledge. The coalface is where you need to hone your skills, what I like is that whilst I am making the changes to my units in the Northern map I have allowed some units to be somewhat isolated in the South. My opponent seized on this and has cut off some units bringing the South to a halt. However he has many units preoccupied here which I feel will be a headache at some point although it is a headache at present for me.

I have made quite a few changes and whilst I think that the Soviets will win there is scope yet for some panic. I have broken through at Pskov and he has withdrawn to another defensive line which gives me a chance to manoeuvre.

I know this is not the AAR thread but I am happy to drop a few pictures in to show the sort of mess a new player makes but staying resolute can also make the map change significantly, the current map I am sure will make you all smile but I am a veteran at strategy games and have played them since 1988 - learning in the thick of it is what I like.

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Post #: 19

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/15/2017 9:24:23 AM

Zecke

Posts: 1330
Joined: 1/15/2005
From: Hitoeton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxCLASHxx

As a noob I would like a little input on expected results.

I am on my first server multiplayer and have had a series of results where the Russians seem impossible to break down.

Of course you have to expect some results not to go to plan but this was 5 major attacks on a single line with all results 'Held'. Am I missing something, this is turn 7.

Looking forward to input.

Thanks

DONT be upset; i have in my game as axis more than 850 russian units in five lines deep or more an is turn 23 (i will try to put the situation..the map),, try always to envolve the situation if not push always with your tanks and rest then in citys to replenisment TANKS

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Post #: 20

RE: German Failure - 6x - 10/16/2017 5:30:19 AM

thedoctorking

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Don't forget to use the HQ Buildup option to fatten up your boys for future operations. You will give up a turn for your armored corps and on the next turn they will get 50 movement points and a boost in CV as well. This is what makes your tanks roll so effectively on turn 1.

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Post #: 21