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Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot itself in the foot

 
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Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot itself... - 11/2/2017 12:33:28 PM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		So the rumours have finally been confirmed. Stellaris just dropped warp drive to go hyperdrive only, sticking a big finger up to those who bought it for the warp drive funtionality.

This is great for DW2, providing of course that you intend to keep the warp drive functionality in the game. You are going to keep that in the game, aren't you? You can tell me ...

< Message edited by Osito -- 11/2/2017 1:02:14 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/3/2017 1:01:02 AM   
Cauldyth

 

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline 		I actually think it's a great decision for Stellaris. Their current system is an utter mess, and none of their mechanics worked well for all three FTL types. Now they can focus the mechanics on hyperlanes (which a lot of them seemed to already sort of be aimed at).

DW's mechanics, on the other hand, are geared towards free-travel (i.e. warp).

I prefer DW's combination of FTL and mechanics, but I think for the mechanics that Stellaris both already has and wants to implement in the future, hyperlanes are the correct choice.

(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 2
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/3/2017 1:16:19 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I'm pretty Indifferent to the change coming in Stellaris. To me it’s like the TBS v RTS debate, I don’t really care, so long as the game is fun. What I'd like to suggest, in the context of Distant Worlds 2, is that a lot of what has been described in the latest Stellaris Dev Diary as specific benefits to hyperlanes could also be done with warp drives.

For example, having areas of the galaxy only accessible by a single hyperlane … well warp drives have a limited range … so just set areas that are beyond warp range. Access to those areas could similarly be via special technologies or exploration events.

Another example is Galactic Terrain e.g. pulsars with shield nullification. With warp drives the map could have more nebulas/spatial anomalies/artifacts with various effects over a region of space. It wouldn’t be hard to implement a variety of different effects here. Some of these could even occur as a result of events e.g. if anyone remembers the Omega Particle from Star Trek Voyager.

And so on.

(in reply to Cauldyth)
Post #: 3
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/3/2017 5:49:22 PM   
SaltiMilk

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 11/3/2017
Status: offline 		Shot its self in the foot? It downright just saved its self. Trying to balance all 3 FTLs is a nightmare and its more of an annoyance than anything.

Also a large majority of people support the change.

< Message edited by SaltiMilk -- 11/3/2017 5:51:52 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 4
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/3/2017 6:58:58 PM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		The post was intended to be a bit tongue in cheek, although I guess that doesn't come across too well in writing.

Saltimik (I'm surprised you didn't call yourself SaltiOsito ;-) ), you must have access to some statistics I don't have, as it's not clear to me whether a large majority support the change, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's a majority. However, regardless of that, it seems likely to me that there is a significant number of people who just don't like hyperlanes, and will be very happy to see DW continue with the warp systems (and other ftl systems, if possible).

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just me and a handful of salty old codgers who care about it.

(in reply to SaltiMilk)
Post #: 5
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/4/2017 1:29:31 AM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		DW2 might have starlanes too.I see no evidence the game is real.

_____________________________


(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 6
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/4/2017 1:59:58 AM   
Retreat1970


Posts: 948
Joined: 11/6/2013
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

DW2 might have starlanes too.I see no evidence the game is real.


Exactly.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 7
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/4/2017 4:35:23 AM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 279
Joined: 12/1/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito

The post was intended to be a bit tongue in cheek, although I guess that doesn't come across too well in writing.

Saltimik (I'm surprised you didn't call yourself SaltiOsito ;-) ), you must have access to some statistics I don't have, as it's not clear to me whether a large majority support the change, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's a majority. However, regardless of that, it seems likely to me that there is a significant number of people who just don't like hyperlanes, and will be very happy to see DW continue with the warp systems (and other ftl systems, if possible).

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just me and a handful of salty old codgers who care about it.


Its not just you. I hate starlanes, they just turn the fluid complexity of space strategy into a greatly-simplified land-based strategy game (roads,mountains,chokepoints) similar to RISK, and its just not what I'm looking for in a space strategy game. If I want land strategy I'll play Civ.

Now that Stellaris has well and truly shot itself in the foot (very appropriate IMO since they wont be getting another penny from me), DW2 has become our last best hope for a space game that actually treats space like space instead of a giant RISK board. Please, please stick with free-movement for DW2, this roads-in-space plague has gone far enough.

< Message edited by Lucian -- 11/4/2017 4:38:47 AM >

(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 8
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/4/2017 9:14:52 AM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

For example, having areas of the galaxy only accessible by a single hyperlane … well warp drives have a limited range … so just set areas that are beyond warp range. Access to those areas could similarly be via special technologies or exploration events.

I have had some of my best fun in DW when limited ranges are an issue. If they want to enforce that kind of play to everyone, they need to do something about the "just add more fuel cells" solution. Maybe some more "punitive game modes" could be enforced on galaxy creation which could be easily be turned into "game presets" to be shared?

For me the game starts in what feels like a large galaxy, but it feels smaller as I get better technology, more resources, and basically beat the game. And that is without even modifying ship designs, so no extra fuel cells.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 9
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/7/2017 5:53:18 PM   
Twigster

 

Posts: 1023
Joined: 1/13/2015
Status: offline 		Adding to the chorus hoping ardently that DW sticks with free movement.

(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 10
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/8/2017 1:28:03 AM   
Cauldyth

 

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline 		I can't imagine them changing that. But if they do, then yeah... would be very disappointed.

(in reply to Twigster)
Post #: 11
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/8/2017 2:52:44 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		It's not changing.

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Cauldyth)
Post #: 12
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/8/2017 3:31:29 AM   
Cauldyth

 

Posts: 752
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(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 13
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/8/2017 7:58:32 AM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 279
Joined: 12/1/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

It's not changing.


After the Stellaris devs suddenly turning to the dark-side with a fully mature product that I only purchased *because* I could turn off starlanes and play with free movement, I cant tell you how relieved that makes me. Thank you.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 14
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/8/2017 8:08:34 AM   
stuart3

 

Posts: 193
Joined: 9/4/2014
Status: offline 		At last, a little piece of hard (and crucial) information. Even this makes the game seem so much more worth waiting for.

(in reply to Lucian)
Post #: 15
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/8/2017 1:09:41 PM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		Really happy to hear that, Eric (and really happy to get some hard information about the game!).

(in reply to stuart3)
Post #: 16
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/8/2017 6:20:31 PM   
Ranbir


Posts: 142
Joined: 3/28/2010
Status: offline 		What is good about DW's space terrain is that it can literally encompass vast sections of the galaxy. LIke we see a lot of clouds and nebulae along the galactic arms (I play spiral). The terrain for stellaris has to limit itself to "nodes" that are connected to hyperplanes.



_____________________________

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(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 17
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/8/2017 6:53:30 PM   
Hattori Hanzo


Posts: 734
Joined: 3/21/2011
From: Okinawa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

It's not changing.


After the Stellaris devs suddenly turning to the dark-side with a fully mature product that I only purchased *because* I could turn off starlanes and play with free movement, I cant tell you how relieved that makes me. Thank you.

Erik Rutkins, about Stellaris:

at today is still possible to play an older Stellaris version with the starlanes turned off ?

(in reply to Lucian)
Post #: 18
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/8/2017 10:15:28 PM   
Osito


Posts: 875
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline 		Regarding Stellaris, the change has not yet been implemented, but it will still be possible to run an older version with warp. Regardless of that personally, I've returned to DW:U already.

(in reply to Hattori Hanzo)
Post #: 19
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/9/2017 12:08:57 AM   
SirHoraceHarkness


Posts: 400
Joined: 5/17/2015
Status: offline 		Haven't even felt the need to play another space strategy game getting dw:u and sticking the ai mod in. It scratches every itch and even though the graphics are dated compared to a more modern game like sins of a solar empire or even galactic civilizations 2 it doesn't matter because the gameplay is so solid and with the excellent automation you can give vast amounts of micromanagement over to your ai minions and concentrate on the parts of the game that are the most fun to you personally. This is the true reason dw has lasted the test of time due to the near infinite ways you can play the game.

(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 20
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/9/2017 7:29:37 AM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 279
Joined: 12/1/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito

Regarding Stellaris, the change has not yet been implemented, but it will still be possible to run an older version with warp. Regardless of that personally, I've returned to DW:U already.


Yes, me too. Stellaris still has enormous problems, particularly with warfare (where DW always effortlessly outclassed it) but their "solution" to gut all the asymmetric FTL methods down to only starlanes of all things is just not acceptable for me. I didn't buy a starlane-based game from Paradox and I wont be playing one in the future. Sticking with 1.8.3 is really not acceptable either because there will still be a huge plethora of never-fixed bugs, existing mods will no longer be updated and new mods will be useless.

Stellaris still does a couple of things clearly better than DW...

1/ Race customization and diversity. No doubt about it, still by far the king in this area.
2/ Exploration and the resulting missions and side-quests.

A week ago I would have also added FTL diversity to that list too but now that its being scrapped because they cant seem to think of any other way to solve their (admittedly huge) gameplay problems other than to completely rip out one of their most iconic and unique core features, DW is looking far more attractive again and I've already started another game.

< Message edited by Lucian -- 11/13/2017 3:52:12 AM >

(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 21
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/9/2017 12:32:48 PM   
Japhet

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 8/15/2014
Status: offline
quote:

Stellaris still does a couple of things clearly better than DW...

1/ Race customization and diversity. No doubt about it, still by far the king in this area.
2/ Exploration and the resulting missions and side-quests.


No, just no. Stellaris is only better at race customization because DW doesn't really has race customization. However, the pre-existing races of DW still offer more diversity in gameplay than Stellaris: None of the trait choices, ethics, governments or even appearence matters. It's all window dressing. Even hive minds or machine empires don't play radical different from normal empires. Hell, you can argue that hive minds are worse, because they don't have two mechanics (happiness and inner empire factions) that normal empires have. The only thing in race customization that really affected gameplay in a meaningful way was the different FTL-drives. Go figure...

And exploration and side quests? Well, kinda. Exploration is indeed the best part of Stellaris but in the long run, it doesn't matter that much because none of the stuff you can find is really a game changer. And the quests and missions are just glorified pop-ups, just like in EU or CK. They are mostly there to "shake things up" or to "topple the status quo". After all, we can't have the player have a trouvle-free time running their empire, THAT would be boring!! And after you have read them a couple of times, you simply skip over the text and click on the button that provides the best outcome, no matter how well written (read: full of references to better franchises that only TRUE scifi fans like us understand) it is.

Stellaris is an utter unsalvageable mess, developed by a bunch of incompetent people. Their only solution to fix gameplay issues is to throw in more numbers (consumer goods), to pile on more poorly thought out mechanics (factions) or, worst of all, gimping or flat out removing core features (ship design, ftl). It's kinda amusing how every dev dairy these guys have released starts with the phrase "I was always unsatisfied/unhappy/disappointed with..." But remember kids: "Stellaris is a great game and it will only get better! Paradox games are like fine wine, they only get better with time! (also more expensive but pssssh)"

Also, Martin Anward, Stellaris' game director, is kind of a dick.

Rant over.

(in reply to Lucian)
Post #: 22
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/9/2017 1:13:54 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Japhet
Stellaris is an utter unsalvageable mess, developed by a bunch of incompetent people.

[snip]

Also, Martin Anward, Stellaris' game director, is kind of a dick.


This is not cool, Japhet. Discussing Stellaris is ok, but just like personal attacks are not allowed on our forum against other forum members, they're not allowed against people outside the forum too.

Whatever your opinion of Stellaris, please phrase it in a civil and constructive way and do not confuse criticism of the game with criticism of the people making the game. I've been on the other side of that enough times and I don't want to encourage it here against other devs.

I've kept this discussion here, because it also touched on whether DW2 would change its FTL, instead of moving it up to General Discussions as we usually do with thread discussing other games. I will lock it though if the discussion can't remain polite.

Regards,

- Erik





_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Japhet)
Post #: 23
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/11/2017 2:22:53 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		Strange hate.Stellaris is the biggest and most played space 4x ever for a reason.

_____________________________


(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 24
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/11/2017 2:31:32 PM   
Menzoberranzan

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 6/8/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Japhet
Stellaris is an utter unsalvageable mess, developed by a bunch of incompetent people.

[snip]

Also, Martin Anward, Stellaris' game director, is kind of a dick.


This is not cool, Japhet. Discussing Stellaris is ok, but just like personal attacks are not allowed on our forum against other forum members, they're not allowed against people outside the forum too.

Whatever your opinion of Stellaris, please phrase it in a civil and constructive way and do not confuse criticism of the game with criticism of the people making the game. I've been on the other side of that enough times and I don't want to encourage it here against other devs.

I've kept this discussion here, because it also touched on whether DW2 would change its FTL, instead of moving it up to General Discussions as we usually do with thread discussing other games. I will lock it though if the discussion can't remain polite.

Regards,

- Erik







I'm not sure how else you would, somewhat politely, refer to a developer that called critics of bad voice acting (aka his customers), misogynists.

< Message edited by Menzoberranzan -- 11/11/2017 2:32:34 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 25
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/11/2017 2:33:33 PM   
Menzoberranzan

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 6/8/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Strange hate.Stellaris is the biggest and most played space 4x ever for a reason.


Yes, and when patch 1.9 is implemented, it won't be... for a reason.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 26
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/11/2017 3:04:18 PM   
solops

 

Posts: 814
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

It's not changing.


Thank goodness! I'll give the new Stellaris a try, but it will never be more than second best for me, ESPECIALLY with the FTL change to starlanes. Polaris Sector beats it like a drum in that category.


< Message edited by solops -- 11/11/2017 3:05:40 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 27
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/11/2017 3:39:19 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Menzoberranzan
I'm not sure how else you would, somewhat politely, refer to a developer that called critics of bad voice acting (aka his customers), misogynists.


Frankly, I don't know anything about this, but this thread and this forum are not the place to discuss the Stellaris devs on any personal level. If you'd like to discuss Stellaris in more detail, that should go in our General Discussion forum, as long as the discussion is focused on the game itself.

Discussions about the Stellaris devs, in my opinion, would be best posted on their own forum where the Stellaris devs can respond.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Menzoberranzan)
Post #: 28
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/12/2017 8:37:45 AM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 279
Joined: 12/1/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Stellaris is the biggest and most played space 4x ever.


Citation required, I strongly suspect that MOO 2 would beg to differ.

I loved the way that Stellaris provided multiple FTL options to allow the player great freedom in choosing exactly how their race would play in the game with each playing very differently. But that's all about to get dumbed down to only starlanes now right? Just like a dozen other depressingly mediocre starlane-only 4x space games that infest the genre like weeds.

So what's so strange about people being upset about a game they bought and paid for, abruptly having one of its most distinctive core features completely gutted, not in early access, but in a fully mature product which originally used asymmetric FTL as a major selling point?

The equivalent would be if Matrix announced that to solve gameplay problems they're scrapping the automation options in DW so that all players are forced to play only one way. And not with DW2 but with DW1 that we already own. I dont think many customers would be particularly happy with that decision either. And rightly so.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 29
RE: Opportunity for DW2 now that Stellaris just shot it... - 11/13/2017 10:22:57 AM   
Dipluz

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/5/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Menzoberranzan
I'm not sure how else you would, somewhat politely, refer to a developer that called critics of bad voice acting (aka his customers), misogynists.


Frankly, I don't know anything about this, but this thread and this forum are not the place to discuss the Stellaris devs on any personal level. If you'd like to discuss Stellaris in more detail, that should go in our General Discussion forum, as long as the discussion is focused on the game itself.

Discussions about the Stellaris devs, in my opinion, would be best posted on their own forum where the Stellaris devs can respond.

Regards,

- Erik



Maybe its time for you guys to start releasing some info about the next game. And start building some Hype!


(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 30
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