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Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/17/2017 8:29:43 PM   
Demetrious

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 4/22/2016
Status: offline 		At present, ground-search radars can barley find the broad side of a barracks (literally,) much less ground targets. I've put together a test scenario to demonstrate that you can download here, with a Raptor's An/APY-8 "Lynx" Synthetic Aperture Radar to work with. I didn't detect the barracks (even flying directly overhead) till I descended to medium altitude, and I only picked up large ground units (tanks, etc.) once I'd descended to 2,000 feet - once. I never re-acquired them (I deleted the Raptor's FLIR for testing purposes.) This is almost certainly unintended behavior, i.e. a bug.

This is in Command v. 1.13, Build 972.11, DB3000 Build 470.

I typed up a whole bunch of background research I did to ensure that these radars should, indeed, be capable of (somewhat) effective volume search of the ground, and then the forum ate the whole post. I've got the links and sources all to hand, so if you need/want it, please ask, because I don't have time or heart to retype it all now just in case. Why, forum software? WHY?
Post #: 1
RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/17/2017 8:32:57 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		I feel your pain on the forum software. Please PM/mail me the supplemental material and any suitable saves.

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RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/18/2017 12:09:03 AM   
DrRansom

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/14/2013
Status: offline 		Thanks for posting this problem, I've noticed it before (literally flying a SAR reconnaissance aircraft a few miles from targets and detecting nothing.)

I didn't know if was WAD or not, but it was definitely odd.

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Post #: 3
RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/18/2017 2:17:10 AM   
Cik

 

Posts: 671
Joined: 10/5/2016
Status: offline 		it's possible that they've become bugged somewhere along the line. i have detected buildings with them before (probably before 1.12X now that i think about it) but they've always seemed blind to me when searching for anything that wasn't a large installation.

this isn't exactly with some 1970s vintage SLAR set or anything either- it was mostly 1990s plus IIRC.

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Post #: 4
RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/18/2017 6:06:12 AM   
User2

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 1/14/2016
Status: offline 		Currently all radars with a "Ground Search(Mobile)" flag can see moving targets without problems. Even if they do not possess "MTI" capability flag or Doppler radar flag. Mobile targets that are not moving are hard to detect for like 99% radars in the DB. Maybe it is WAD: tank/SAM system can be camouflaged. IR/Radar/Visual camouflage exist. During Vietnam war NV soldiers hid S-75 systems in the jungles. All trees around the system were cut and then fixed in the original position by a rope system. Enemy plane flying over the jungles could not detect the sam even if it would have had modern radar back in the 1960s. By a signal, trees were pulled down to the ground clearing the space around the system, allowing it to operatate and engage the passing by enemy jet.
Ah-64 Apache radar is one of the 1% radars which can spot tank sized stationary ground units in the game. Maybe the reason is very narrow ah-64 radar horizontal beam.

< Message edited by User2 -- 11/18/2017 6:08:08 AM >

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RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/19/2017 4:34:56 PM   
gosnold

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		I observed the same behaviour, in the attached scenario a B-2 with its radar on cannot see the ground radar just under it.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/19/2017 5:26:55 PM   
Raptorx7_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gosnold

I observed the same behaviour, in the attached scenario a B-2 with its radar on cannot see the ground radar just under it.


1. The problem with this save is that the B-2 is flying right over the radar so its radar cant even detect it anyway.

2. The B-2 is at 36,000ft where the radars effectiveness will be more limited due to range

3. The area the radar is in is very hilly/mountainous so the radar is going to have a hard time finding anything.

4. The radar may be tall but its pretty darn small, so picking it out at any range will be tricky

Ground search radars are good at finding moving things and large buildings and this works fine in the game ive tested it thoroughly, but finding stationary tanks and smaller things like that is really hard or impossible. This makes sense though since the ground has a lot of clutter, i don't know how you could balance that honestly.

< Message edited by raptorx7 -- 11/19/2017 5:39:13 PM >

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RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/19/2017 6:27:34 PM   
gosnold

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		1. OK, but the B-2 did not detect anything on its way there

2. 36 000 ft is negligible compared to the range of the radar, which is 60nm. I dropped it to 1000ft to test and it still did not detect anything. The FLIR made the detection at 4nm

3. It's not that mountainous, at 36kft the radar should have line of sight

4. The antenna of the radar should have a huge RCS when pointing towards the aircraft

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RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/26/2017 12:18:02 PM   
DrRansom

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/14/2013
Status: offline 		Is there any update on this problem? It is a pretty big issue with one of the main sensor models.

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Post #: 9
RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/26/2017 1:28:45 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		This is still being looked on. It's a delicate subject, because the flip-side of it is units legitimately using ground clutter to hide themselves (e.g. small ships close to the coast, or vehicles in rough terrain).

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Post #: 10
RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/26/2017 2:03:42 PM   
Raptorx7_slith

 

Posts: 380
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: offline 		Yeah, I don't think theres a really good answer for this. Maybe have it so AESA detects at a farther range of like 3/4 or half of radar range and other radars detect at 1/2 and below?


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Post #: 11
RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/26/2017 5:26:02 PM   
gosnold

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		I propose two things:
- modern radars (ie with AESA in their name, or for units more recent than 2000 for example, or both) get a SAR mode, in which they get a bonus to their range for units already detected. In effect, it's the same mechanism as FLIR as mentioned up thread. That way they don't detect everything but can still refine the position of roughly detected units and classify them using the image provided by SAR.
- sensors with SAR or SLAR in their name get a bonus to their raw detection range to represent the fact they can build wide-area SAR pictures. They are mostly carried by recon planes, and would give a good reason to use radar recon planes. Here is the sensors with SLAR according to CMANO-db.com:
Radar Fox Flat SLAR [Sabla] - (MiG-25RBS)
Radar Fox Flat SLAR [Shompol] - (Tu-22RDM, M-202)
Radar Fox Flat SLAR [Shompol] - (MiG-25RBS)
Radar Generic SLAR - (MiG-25RBS)
Radar SLAR - (Tu-22MR)
Radar SLAR - (Rafael Recce Pod)
Radar SLAR [Igla-1] - (Il-20M)
Radar SLAR [Kub-3M] - (MiG-25, NATO Name?)
Radar SLAR [RDS-BO Shtik] - (Su-24MR)
Radar SLAR [Tompol] - (MiG-25, NATO Name?)
Radar SLAR [Virazh] - (MiG-25, NATO Name?)
Radar Terma 9000 SLAR - (C-295 MPA)

For SAR one has to be more careful and get rid of a few false positives:
Radar AN/APS-137(V)1 ISAR - (S-3B)
Radar AN/APS-137(V)2 ISAR - (P-3C Update III)
Radar AN/APS-137(V)4 ISAR - (HC-130H)
Radar AN/APS-137(V)5 ISAR - (HC-130H)
Radar AN/APS-137(V)6 ISAR - (HC-130H)
Radar AN/APS-137A(V)5 ISAR - (P-3C AIP, Norway)
Radar AN/APS-137B(V)5 ISAR - (P-3C AIP replacement)
Radar AN/ASD-12 SHARP [SAR] - (P-3C AIP replacement)
Radar AN/UPD-8 [AN/APD-14 SAROS] - (P-3C AIP replacement)
Radar AN/ZPQ-1 TESAR - (P-3C AIP replacement)
Radar ASARS-1 - (SR-71 SAR)
Radar ASARS-2 - (1987, U-2 SAR)
Radar ASARS-2A - (2002, U-2 SAR)
Radar ASTOR SAR - (2002, U-2 SAR)
Radar AWS.10 TRISAR - (2002, U-2 SAR)
Radar CAPTOR-E AESA [CAESAR] - (Typhoon FGR.4, LPI, Ex-AMSAR)
Radar Eagle Eye ISAR - (Typhoon FGR.4, LPI, Ex-AMSAR)
Radar Generic Satellite SAR - (1200km)
Radar Global Hawk Sensor Package [ISAR] - (1200km)
Radar HISAR SAR-MTI - (1200km)
Radar I-Master - (GMTI/SAR Imaging radar)
Radar IRIS SAR - (Dettwiler, EMB-145RS)
Radar NASARR F-15G - (F-104S, CIO)
Radar NASARR F-15J-31 - (F-104J)
Radar NASARR R-14A - (F-105)
Radar NASARR R-21G/H - (F-104S, CBO)
Radar NASARR R-21G/M1 Setter - (FIAR, F-1)

What this does not address is planes like the B-2 which have AESA ground search radars with SAR modes, but it is not called AESA or SAR in the database. That would require some case-by-case DB updates.

(in reply to Raptorx7_slith)
Post #: 12
RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/26/2017 5:54:10 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Isn't SAR mode a "special" operating mode even for modern AESAs? (What I mean: Is it a reasonable assumption that all ground search-capable ESAs/AESAs have a SAR mode?)

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Post #: 13
RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/26/2017 6:39:47 PM   
gosnold

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		I think it's not so clear cut. You can have SAR without AESA (cf the SAR Lupe satellite), and AESA without SAR or with a poor SAR. What AESA allows is spotlight modes with very high resolution where the radar beam stays pointed at the target. However for those high resolution modes the swath is short, so it's not good for search but it is good for identification. AESA also allows for faster beam repointing for scan modes, that makes it easier to search in square regions and not only in long strips.
Here's a link on SAR modes:
http://www.radartutorial.eu/20.airborne/ab08.en.html

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Post #: 14
RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/26/2017 11:48:39 PM   
DrRansom

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/14/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

This is still being looked on. It's a delicate subject, because the flip-side of it is units legitimately using ground clutter to hide themselves (e.g. small ships close to the coast, or vehicles in rough terrain).


I definitely understand that problem. From what I can tell, the combat record of SAR is abysmal.

Allied Force and the Iraq, for example, really demonstrated SARs limitations in a contested environment.

There are a bunch of issues, which don't have an easy solution:
- SAR has a demonstated track record of being unable to discriminate between destroyed and intact vehicles (Desert Storm & Allied Force)

- In reality, stationary vehicles can hide next to buildings, in hull-down positions, in a light forest, all of which will decrease SARs effectiveness. Right now, CMANO can't capture that fine detail, but excluding it makes SAR vastly more effective than reality.

- Until AESAs, SAR probably had a very limited ability to discriminate between targets. For example, the refueling vehicles for the Russian mobile ICBMs are designed to look like (and presumably have similar radar signature) to the TELs. As TEL search is a major role for SARs, the weakness in target descrimination is important to capture.

I don't know if there is a good solution. Maybe divide up target classes:
- buildings can be detected at long ranges, but not classified further than building
- vehicles and ships retain the short detection range, because they'd be tactically positioned to minimize radar signature
- dedicated radars have a boost to range, but still rather short and no ability to discriminate targets until AESA

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Post #: 15
RE: Ground Search Radars cannot find stationary targets - 11/27/2017 8:24:20 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gosnold
I think it's not so clear cut. You can have SAR without AESA (cf the SAR Lupe satellite), and AESA without SAR or with a poor SAR. What AESA allows is spotlight modes with very high resolution where the radar beam stays pointed at the target. However for those high resolution modes the swath is short, so it's not good for search but it is good for identification. AESA also allows for faster beam repointing for scan modes, that makes it easier to search in square regions and not only in long strips.
Here's a link on SAR modes:
http://www.radartutorial.eu/20.airborne/ab08.en.html


Thanks, that helps too.

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