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RE: T3 - 11/16/2017 1:00:54 AM   
Grognard1812


Posts: 909
Joined: 3/28/2017
From: Canada
Status: offline 		The air war became serious on GT3 when Tyronec used a tactic I havn't encountered before. He attacked units and
some air bases using only large number of fighters in an apparent attempt to shot down intercepting Soviet
fighters. The screen shot below shows one air battle where 126 German fighters were intercepted by 57 older type
Soviet fighters and 21 Soviet fighters were downed with no losses to the German fighters.

Not sure how to counter this tactic, as at this rate the Soviet air force will be reduced to just production levels
in a few months. Will be transferring in large numbers of more recent type Soviet fighter Air Groups (Mig3, Lagg3),
as the I-15 and I-16 fighters are not effective. Also considering changing the Air Doctrine to 'turn off ground
support' and increasing the fighter intercept from 75% to 100-200% to increase the number of Soviet fighters
intercepting the attacking German fighters. Not sure if this will just worsen the Soviet plane losses.






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RE: T3 - 11/16/2017 2:47:08 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

The air war became serious on GT3 when Tyronec used a tactic I havn't encountered before. He attacked units and
some air bases using only large number of fighters in an apparent attempt to shot down intercepting Soviet
fighters. The screen shot below shows one air battle where 126 German fighters were intercepted by 57 older type
Soviet fighters and 21 Soviet fighters were downed with no losses to the German fighters.

Not sure how to counter this tactic, as at this rate the Soviet air force will be reduced to just production levels
in a few months. Will be transferring in large numbers of more recent type Soviet fighter Air Groups (Mig3, Lagg3),
as the I-15 and I-16 fighters are not effective. Also considering changing the Air Doctrine to 'turn off ground
support' and increasing the fighter intercept from 75% to 100-200% to increase the number of Soviet fighters
intercepting the attacking German fighters. Not sure if this will just worsen the Soviet plane losses.







A few options (I'm sure others can chime in with better ideas than myself)

1. Don't fly anything and conserve the Red Air Force to a future date and build up strength.

or

2. Set up Red Air Force further to the rear to force Germans to fly greater distance with fewer Sorties and gain more fatigue for the Germans

or

3. You can "aggressively" counter with air settings @ 300% interception for fighters.

All have their pro's and con's. The end result is is that you will loose a great many aircraft no matter what you do. Just my 2 cents is try to gain some small benefit in what ever you do. I'm sure others will be able to chime with some good advice here.

Thank you much!

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RE: T3 - 11/16/2017 2:48:21 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
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Status: offline 		Just a note, I hope you two are playing at least a few turns ahead ;-)

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RE: T3 - 11/16/2017 8:05:28 AM   
tyronec


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From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
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quote:

Just a note, I hope you two are playing at least a few turns ahead ;-)

We are playing one move ahead. I wanted to do it this way in the hope of stimulating some debate and players being able to respond to any suggestions - so am looking forward to Grognard trying something different to see how that works.

My air strategy is bomb any air bases that are near the front, so that STAVKA either run out of planes or have to pull back and leave me free to support the land war. Have never played past '41 but would not expect this approach to work into '42 as the Soviet air force gets stronger.

Had some good practice in our game playing against an aggressive Soviet air force to hopefully my technique has improved a little. Think I was moving my fighters too near to the front line. Axis fighters shouldn't be flying too many missions a turn (to keep fatigue down) so there is no need to be closer than 15 hexes or so to the target and still get maximum use. Fatigue is generated more by combat than distance flown.

< Message edited by tyronec -- 11/16/2017 8:14:37 AM >

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Post #: 34
RE: T4 - 11/16/2017 9:19:49 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
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From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		T4.
Grognard is retreating on all fronts, and success - no pockets broken this turn! Am not unhappy with the retreat, will restrict prospects of catching some units but another turn of free advances gets me closer to Moscow without a fight.
He has done a little ground bombing, Luftwaffe shot down 43 for 2 fighters.

AGN. Will flip as much terrain as possible, establishing a threat from the Baltic down to south of Lake Ilmen.

AGC. Flip more terrain. Will move AGC last so I can see what is developing with AGS, I may wasn’t to set up to encircle the Pripyat marshes next turn.
Finish mopping up the Minsk pocket.

AGS. My cavalry have 37 MPs while my armour west of the river has 25-30. 10th Motorised have 90% fuel but only 30 MPs; Schweppenburg needs to pull his socks up. 6th army will just get to the river this turn. I don't think I have the movement points to drive north and reach Gomel so will see if I can trap a unit or two somewhere.

Romania. LAH has 99% fuel and only 31 MPs, would usually expect 40 MPs. There are a couple of opportunities: I could drive towards Z'town and perhaps do an HQB, threatening some sort of pocket next turn OR cut north and try and encircle a few units around Cherkassy. Either way the infantry are a long way behind and supplies re stretched. Looking more closely at the map there may be a chance to cross the minor river to the south where it is undefended and roll up the defensive line from there, perhaps making a small pocket.

Air war. There are nearly 4 good stacks with good fighters around Leningrad so will switch my attack to AGC this turn.





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< Message edited by tyronec -- 11/16/2017 9:37:48 PM >

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RE: T4 - 11/16/2017 9:21:09 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		AGN. No serious combat, PG4 leads the advance and I leave one Pz. Corps from PG3 to rest and recharge. The Finns start to convert northern Russia to democracy.





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RE: T4 - 11/16/2017 9:21:45 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		AGC. Again almost no combat. I only have two Pz. Corps, one advances and pushes back a couple of infantry divisions, the other rests. All pockets have been cleared out.





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RE: T4 - 11/16/2017 9:23:13 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
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From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		AGS. I had underestimated the movement points for PG2 to cross the river into a zone of control so have to use the cavalry to clear the East bank. One Pz. Corps is left on each side of the river and 6th Army is almost there.
17th Army is still mopping up L'Vov, almost done.

Romania. I do my right hook and rout a few paratroops and cavalry but don't have enough strength to make a pocket so Wiking is sent on sweep behind Soviet front lines. Soviets have been retreating too fast to make a serious attempt to pocket anything.

Air war. I transfer all my fighters that were up north to around Vitebsk (the bombers don't need to move) and launch heavy attacks on air bases, scoring 440 for 16. The fighters are doing well.
In the south I do a similar manoeuvre and switch the attack from Kiev to D'town, getting 185 for 25 which is not bad as half my losses are Romanians. Then Wiking manages to trip all the Soviet air bases for another 350, total for the turn is 980 for 48.

STAVKA is up to 3.2m which is heading in a more normal direction but still the lowest I have ever seen for T4, not as if they have lost more units than usual. (NOTE this was written before the various discussions in the forum today)





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RE: T4 - 11/16/2017 9:28:19 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		Air losses at the start of T5, no shortage if air frames in the pool.




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< Message edited by tyronec -- 11/16/2017 9:34:35 PM >

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RE: T4 - 11/16/2017 11:35:04 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Air losses at the start of T5, no shortage if air frames in the pool.





Ya, well ahead in the Air War with minimal loses. Nicely done.

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RE: T3 - 11/17/2017 4:52:00 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

The air war became serious on GT3 when Tyronec used a tactic I havn't encountered before. He attacked units and
some air bases using only large number of fighters in an apparent attempt to shot down intercepting Soviet
fighters. The screen shot below shows one air battle where 126 German fighters were intercepted by 57 older type
Soviet fighters and 21 Soviet fighters were downed with no losses to the German fighters.

Not sure how to counter this tactic, as at this rate the Soviet air force will be reduced to just production levels
in a few months. Will be transferring in large numbers of more recent type Soviet fighter Air Groups (Mig3, Lagg3),
as the I-15 and I-16 fighters are not effective. Also considering changing the Air Doctrine to 'turn off ground
support' and increasing the fighter intercept from 75% to 100-200% to increase the number of Soviet fighters
intercepting the attacking German fighters. Not sure if this will just worsen the Soviet plane losses.







A tactic I learned from my 2x3 game

Recon .. see where the Soviets will intercept ..exhausting Soviet fighters 2-4 at a time ..
Do "ground bombings" (which in fact simulate fighter sweeps) with fighters only at the furthest range from the Soviets that they will intercept closest to my bases .. using staging bases
Harvest Soviet fighters ..
Once fighters are exhausted Now use bombers to clean house & attack strategic points (Note first 33% of bombers must be used for airfield attack or they will not be used for that purpose at all)

I am not sure what long term consequence of increasing interception % will be ...



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RE: T3 - 11/17/2017 6:14:26 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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From: Berlin, Germany
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quote:

A tactic I learned from my 2x3 game

Looks like Telemecus is a good teacher :)

@Grognard: I believe a countermeasure is concentration of the air forces. On this way there are always some fresh fighters. And don't forget the German fighters will be fatigued by those missions as well, making them vulnerable from airfield bombing.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 11/17/2017 6:15:52 PM >

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RE: T3 - 11/17/2017 6:49:24 PM   
Grognard1812


Posts: 909
Joined: 3/28/2017
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Thank-you, I will using your advice of concentrating the Soviet air force, HardLuckYetAgain's advice of setting
the interception for fighters to 300% and Crackaces advice of fatiguing the German fighters with multiple
recon missions, starting with GT 5.

GT 4 was again difficult for the Red Air Force with 1138 aircraft loses vs 58 for the Axis.









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RE: T3 - 11/17/2017 7:04:49 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812
Crackaces advice of fatiguing the German fighters with multiple
recon missions, starting with GT 5.


Beware that would be more advice for an Axis player than a Soviet one. Axis have lots of recon, but Soviets do not. If the Soviet player does not want to be blind to a good Axis player they have to use their recon wisely and conservatively.

However the Soviet player does have lots of other aircraft types in abundance which they do not mind losing. Unlike recon flying unescorted, other missions can help the axis by increasing their experience and morale more than the fatigue hurts them. So you do need to chose your targets even for them more cautiously and more in combination with fighter sweeps etc.

My advice is do think about ranges of your different aircraft a lot. It is possible for each side to keep their bombers operating very well but in bases out of range of the others fighters which makes them much safer. So the only contest then would be on fighter numbers on which Axis is weaker.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 11/17/2017 7:07:48 PM >

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RE: T3 - 11/17/2017 9:28:28 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

Thank-you, I will using your advice of concentrating the Soviet air force, HardLuckYetAgain's advice of setting
the interception for fighters to 300% and Crackaces advice of fatiguing the German fighters with multiple
recon missions, starting with GT 5.

GT 4 was again difficult for the Red Air Force with 1138 aircraft loses vs 58 for the Axis.










Just need to stop loosing aircraft needlessly to ground overrun ;-P.

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Soviet GT 4 - 11/17/2017 10:55:42 PM   
Grognard1812


Posts: 909
Joined: 3/28/2017
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Soviet GT 4

Was able to use a Cavalry division on either flank of the panzer breakthrough near the cities of Dnepropetrovsk and
Zaporozhye to cut off the supply corridor to two Panzer Corps of Army Group South (2 Panzer divisions, 4 motorized
divisions and a motorized Regiment). Using heavy amounts of recon missions is the best way to find these
openings in the Axis lines, especially when the panzer units race ahead of their infantry support. These units
will not be getting any supplies next turn, slowing the Axis advance in the area.




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RE: Soviet GT 4 - 11/17/2017 11:10:18 PM   
Grognard1812


Posts: 909
Joined: 3/28/2017
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Southern Front at the end of GT 4

The area around the two cities of Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye at the end of the Soviet GT 4.

Surrounded the Wiking SS Motorized Division and sent 6 high morale infantry divisions to the area.





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< Message edited by Grognard1812 -- 11/17/2017 11:23:47 PM >

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RE: Soviet GT 4 - 11/17/2017 11:47:27 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

Southern Front at the end of GT 4

The area around the two cities of Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye at the end of the Soviet GT 4.

Surrounded the Wiking SS Motorized Division and sent 6 high morale infantry divisions to the area.






Next turn is going to be interesting for sure.

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RE: T3 - 11/18/2017 1:29:57 AM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

A tactic I learned from my 2x3 game

Looks like Telemecus is a good teacher :)

I have most certainly have been exposed to a whole new level in this game. It is trying to understand the nuences of this game that I caution players about changing algorithms before really understanding the game. The can only say the game is very complex and given mastering these complexities is essential to making the game work.

I wish there were concise manuals capturing these nuences .. but playing side by side with a master has been enlightening

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RE: T3 - 11/18/2017 1:48:28 AM   
Twigster

 

Posts: 1023
Joined: 1/13/2015
Status: offline 		Speaking as one who is just now seriously getting into the PvP aspect of the game, I agree. Following this AAR from the beginning (from the perspective of both sides) has helped clarify my understanding of certain game dynamics.

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RE: T3 - 11/18/2017 2:09:32 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

A tactic I learned from my 2x3 game

Looks like Telemecus is a good teacher :)

I have most certainly have been exposed to a whole new level in this game. It is trying to understand the nuences of this game that I caution players about changing algorithms before really understanding the game. The can only say the game is very complex and given mastering these complexities is essential to making the game work.

I wish there were concise manuals capturing these nuences .. but playing side by side with a master has been enlightening

Oh, so you are saying you are ready for a game ;-P

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/18/2017 2:10:27 AM >

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RE:T5 - 11/18/2017 3:49:59 PM   
tyronec


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From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		T5
Grognard has done some bombing, losing 51 for 3. No ground attacks.

In Finland he has several units at the river line so looks like he will try and slow or stop the advance there.

In front of Leningrad there is one river defence where he just has a brigade so I may be able to make a crossing there as the infantry come up, but also want to rest my panzers for next turn when the real battle should start. The best of his air force is in four stacks next to the city.
There is very little defending south of lake Ilmen so another possibility would be to try and cross the river there but it would require committing some armour.

Opposite AGC the retreat continues, will be two turns before the infantry arrive. Will just advance and flip more terrain. The air bases have pulled back so harder to bomb in full strength. He has also retreated in front of Kiev so PG2 should be able to link up with AGC. I need to consider what to do with the two Pz corps around Kiev.

South. He has cut off two Pz. Corps using cavalry and also surrounded Wiking. Another mistake, I got too far ahead of my infantry last turn and didn't think he could get that far behind my lines; one of them may have got there by rail.
The priority is to relieve Wiking, which may not be easy. If my infantry were further forward could look at making a pocket but that doesn't look practical.

Air war. In the south there are a few stacks near Poltava which look a good target. In the north will engage the heavy stacks around Leningrad with my fighters and think I can use the bombers to do unsupported ground attacks in some areas.





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RE: RE:T5 - 11/18/2017 3:50:58 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
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From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		Finland. We set up to attack the defensive line north of Lake Lagoda. May be able to catch a couple of infantry divisions on the isthmus.

AGN. 16th Army storm the Luga (well, 1 brigade) and Model gets across with three divisions. This looks like the place to break through next turn so I bring up everything available and the Pz corps from PG3 does an HQB.
Below the Ilmen the there are only airborne brigades in the front line and 18th Army manages to push two of them back with hasty attacks. The only way I can occupy the terrain is to use a mot div from PG4, would have liked to send it north but good to keep some pressure on here as well.





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RE: RE:T5 - 11/18/2017 3:51:46 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
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From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		AGC. No attacks, the infantry advance another 40 miles and my two Pz corps rest. The cavalry at Kiev take Chernigov and are refuelled by air, should link up next turn.




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RE: RE:T5 - 11/18/2017 3:52:30 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
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From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		AGS. Still 8 divisions in the L'Vov pocket, am leaving them to wilt.
The attack around D'town worked out OK and Wiking get relieved with a couple of attacks to spare, had a well fuelled Pz. Corps at Kirovograd that covered the final few hexes. It leaves STAVKA with a few divisions that will struggle to extract themselves and hopefully will get pocketed next turn.

Air war. There were some 1100+ fighters up by Leningrad, too many to bomb, so the Luftwaffe does fighter sweeps and scores 300 for 20. Am hoping this will also weaken their morale and just maybe I will be facing a weaker force next turn and can bomb them, but of course they may withdraw out of range. The air bases around Poltava get bombed and my score for the turn is 478 for 50. Was also able to support the ground war down south and around lake Ilmen where there was no fighter cover and with my first effort at strategic bombing hit the IL factories at Voronezh.







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< Message edited by tyronec -- 11/18/2017 3:58:05 PM >

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RE: RE:T5 - 11/19/2017 1:40:28 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

AGS. Still 8 divisions in the L'Vov pocket, am leaving them to wilt.
The attack around D'town worked out OK and Wiking get relieved with a couple of attacks to spare, had a well fuelled Pz. Corps at Kirovograd that covered the final few hexes. It leaves STAVKA with a few divisions that will struggle to extract themselves and hopefully will get pocketed next turn.

Air war. There were some 1100+ fighters up by Leningrad, too many to bomb, so the Luftwaffe does fighter sweeps and scores 300 for 20. Am hoping this will also weaken their morale and just maybe I will be facing a weaker force next turn and can bomb them, but of course they may withdraw out of range. The air bases around Poltava get bombed and my score for the turn is 478 for 50. Was also able to support the ground war down south and around lake Ilmen where there was no fighter cover and with my first effort at strategic bombing hit the IL factories at Voronezh.








Unless by some miracle they will be surrounded. It is unfortunate that a Soviet Mountain Division is in the mix. Mountain Division are hard pipe hitters & quick movers(60 Morale) in the Blizzard turns & I personally go out of my way to save as many as possible of these units. Especially since they don't respawn just like the Airborne brigades don't when eliminated.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/19/2017 1:41:52 AM >

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RE: RE:T5 - 11/19/2017 6:30:58 AM   
tyronec


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From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		The mountain division had disappeared during my turn, perhaps Grognard can tell us what happened to it ?

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Post #: 57
Mountain Division - 11/19/2017 11:18:37 AM   
Grognard1812


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From: Canada
Status: offline 		The Mountain Division's escape path was blocked by the German Mot Regiment located 2 hexes Northwest of it.
An attack by 3 Soviet Divisions forced the Mot Regiment to retreat allowing the Mountain Division to
escape over the Dnepr river, able to fight another day. It is under one of the stacks on the North side of the
river. This Soviet attack was the only one out of 4 that succeeded, as the others were against Divisional
sized Axis units which failed.

As all the industry from Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye (except for 4 Heavy Industry from Zaporozhye) had been
evacuated a new defensive line was set up around the river. Since most of the panzer and motorized units are
20 hexes or more from their rail supply line (due to their successful rescue of the Wiking Division) I doubt they
will have enough Movement points to attack and cross the Dnepr next turn. 5 Soviet divisions were unable to escape.






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RE: Mountain Division - 11/19/2017 12:03:31 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

The Mountain Division's escape path was blocked by the German Mot Regiment located 2 hexes Northwest of it.
An attack by 3 Soviet Divisions forced the Mot Regiment to retreat allowing the Mountain Division to
escape over the Dnepr river, able to fight another day. It is under one of the stacks on the North side of the
river. This Soviet attack was the only one out of 4 that succeeded, as the others were against Divisional
sized Axis units which failed.

As all the industry from Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye (except for 4 Heavy Industry from Zaporozhye) had been
evacuated a new defensive line was set up around the river. Since most of the panzer and motorized units are
20 hexes or more from their rail supply line (due to their successful rescue of the Wiking Division) I doubt they
will have enough Movement points to attack and cross the Dnepr next turn. 5 Soviet divisions were unable to escape.







Very nice save of the Mountain Division, along with the Armor that was there too ;-). Mr Stalin has taken that commander of that front off the kill list, for now........ ;-P. I do see 3 "good" divisions (the 2 attack value with experienced squads) going to be working on the German railroad soon.

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Post #: 59
RE: Mountain Division - 11/19/2017 12:21:53 PM   
Grognard1812


Posts: 909
Joined: 3/28/2017
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Thank-you HardLuckYetAgain.

I was lucky that only 5 divisions couldn't escape, could have been a much bigger pocket. My number one priority
this early in the game is avoiding pockets and unnecessarily losing units which are needed for the defense
of Leningrad and Moscow.


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