Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: morvael

For a long time I have been thinking about reducing this bonus from +5 to +1.

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ORIGINAL: Telemecus

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I still think there should be night bombing in the game, just the results should not be as devastating as daylight bombing.

Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE. I have never been able to get any good results with night bombing, only day bombing.

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

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ORIGINAL: Telemecus

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I still think there should be night bombing in the game, just the results should not be as devastating as daylight bombing.

Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE. I have never been able to get any good results with night bombing, only day bombing.

I'm referencing the night bombing of Airbases. I believe you may be referring to factories. I know in my last game played I had a night bombing of an airbase killing 25 Fighters in one attack. Maybe that was a one off but most of the time can easily get 5~15 aircraft airfield bombing. Which could also be attributed to Germans flying fatigued at night.

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Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE?Can you point to any examples of effective night bombing in WitE?

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To be honest the problem began when every plane could start flying "NIGHT" missions.

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ORIGINAL: tyronec

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To be honest the problem began when every plane could start flying "NIGHT" missions.

I disagree with this, the tactic of fatiguing the Axis fighters to death works without night missions.

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ORIGINAL: morvael

It was always possible to fly night missions with every plane, but required more clicks and passive player could not react.

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

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ORIGINAL: morvael

It was always possible to fly night missions with every plane, but required more clicks and passive player could not react.

You could fly either Day or Night missions and NOT BOTH. That is what made the difference when the ability to fly both without further refining your settings.

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ORIGINAL: morvael

Nobody forces you to use Both settings for German fighters :-)

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
You could fly either Day or Night missions and NOT BOTH. That is what made the difference when the ability to fly both without further refining your settings.

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ORIGINAL: morvael

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
You could fly either Day or Night missions and NOT BOTH. That is what made the difference when the ability to fly both without further refining your settings.

The problem was the other player could switch his entire force to night mode, bomb at will without risk of interception and switch back to daily mode for the rest of the turn (and for enemy turn) to get GS. BOTH settings was invented to allow the passive player to intercept both kinds of missions when he is not in control of his airforce during enemy turn.

Perhaps it would better to limit night settings change to one per turn, that way one would have to choose.

Anyway, as you can ignore BOTH settings, you can play as if it was never there.

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ORIGINAL: Stelteck

My first thought of the subjet is that i'am not sûre the air setting is working as intended.

Because i sometimes tried to change settings for ground bombing (especially escort %) and i do not see what i'am expecting to see.
Maybe any air setting change is taken into account only after the end of a turn ?

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ORIGINAL: Telemecus

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ORIGINAL: Stelteck

My first thought of the subjet is that i'am not sûre the air setting is working as intended.

Because i sometimes tried to change settings for ground bombing (especially escort %) and i do not see what i'am expecting to see.
Maybe any air setting change is taken into account only after the end of a turn ?

Very often I set the escort to 300% and then switch fighters to nights (for a day mission) until I get the escort I want. So at least in some sense I find the unmanipulated air doctrine to be awkward or inaccurate. Certainly there does not seem to be much consistency in how many escorts fly, and that is comparing like for like (same fighters in same airbases with same fuel levels etc.) So if that part of air doctrine is working as intended, the intentions are very difficult for users such as myself to discern.

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Perhaps it would better to limit night settings change to one per turn, that way one would have to choose.

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ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
As long as there is separate fly/no fly setting

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So my point still stands that the Germans can do what is necessary to keep the Soviets at bay.

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ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@HLYA: If I recall correctly, you have been the only real advocate against Dinglirs position stated in the first thread. You repeatedly commented that the German fighter arm can resist a very optimized Soviet air strategy, but if I haven't overread anything, you never gave any details how to do this while at the same time maintaining some sort of support for the ground troops. As you have been somewhat offended by a similiar comment of Tyronec on his AAR, please note that there is no ill will here. If I sound rude, its because Germans always sound rude, at least thats the cliche. I also judge in no way that you don't like to publish aspects of your strategy which took you a lot of time to figure out, or to hand over the anti-strategy defeating exactly your one. Its 100% fine to act so.

This being said, only giving an opinion, but no other arguments to support it, is not convincing.

In addition, I have a question to make sure I understand your position: Do you believe, that the combined axis fighter arm is able to protect bombers flying ground bombing and ground support for one schwerpunkt per theatre (north, center south), protect the concentrated panzer blob from soviet ground bombing, while at the same time preserving its own strength and while protecting the fighter and bomber bases from soviet airfield bombing. All this assuming a skilled soviet player willing to micromanage its forces and using the tricks he has to his disposal.

Is this what you mean with

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So my point still stands that the Germans can do what is necessary to keep the Soviets at bay.

?

I ask this because this is IMO what the German airforce should be capable of in 1941 and to lesser extent in 1942.

My personal opinion is that the soviet airforce is slightly overpowered, according to my definition of the mission profile the axis air force should be able to perform assuming optimized play on both sides, but I agree with you HLYA that the Germans have many means and tricks to protect the air force which are sometimes not used, giving the impression of an overly imbalanced air war. The question is whether this is enough vs. a good russian player.

Thanks for reading.

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

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ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@HLYA: If I recall correctly, you have been the only real advocate against Dinglirs position stated in the first thread. You repeatedly commented that the German fighter arm can resist a very optimized Soviet air strategy, but if I haven't overread anything, you never gave any details how to do this while at the same time maintaining some sort of support for the ground troops. As you have been somewhat offended by a similiar comment of Tyronec on his AAR, please note that there is no ill will here. If I sound rude, its because Germans always sound rude, at least thats the cliche. I also judge in no way that you don't like to publish aspects of your strategy which took you a lot of time to figure out, or to hand over the anti-strategy defeating exactly your one. Its 100% fine to act so.

This being said, only giving an opinion, but no other arguments to support it, is not convincing.

In addition, I have a question to make sure I understand your position: Do you believe, that the combined axis fighter arm is able to protect bombers flying ground bombing and ground support for one schwerpunkt per theatre (north, center south), protect the concentrated panzer blob from soviet ground bombing, while at the same time preserving its own strength and while protecting the fighter and bomber bases from soviet airfield bombing. All this assuming a skilled soviet player willing to micromanage its forces and using the tricks he has to his disposal.

Is this what you mean with

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So my point still stands that the Germans can do what is necessary to keep the Soviets at bay.

?

I ask this because this is IMO what the German airforce should be capable of in 1941 and to lesser extent in 1942.

My personal opinion is that the soviet airforce is slightly overpowered, according to my definition of the mission profile the axis air force should be able to perform assuming optimized play on both sides, but I agree with you HLYA that the Germans have many means and tricks to protect the air force which are sometimes not used, giving the impression of an overly imbalanced air war. The question is whether this is enough vs. a good russian player.

Thanks for reading.

The last time something like this came up I ended up jumping in too deep to prove it. I'm not doing that again. So everyone can cling to their conclusions and I will stick with mine. I only have my games which I have played as Germany and my "opinions" from those games with the German AirForce. I have also drawn my conclusions from my Soviet play which are my "opinions". So as you elegantly said, "only giving an opinion, but no other arguments to support it, is not convincing" As such I'm not going to be able convince anyone of anything since I only have my opinions from my "own" skill using the German Air Force and Soviet Air Force. So maybe I'm just flat wrong in my conclusion & everyone else is correct, I don't think so since I believe too many Germans are over utilizing the German Air Force first and foremost.

Let me give a few examples here on the over utilization of the German Air Force. But 1st my position of the German Airforce is this, "To protect the integrity of the German Fighter Airforce as long as possible into the later war years first and foremost". Everything else is secondary. Now back to the over utilization I see Germans flying ground support, in the AAR's, where air support is not needed in a battle hex(why fly the support when you don't need it) Or they are flying fighter cover with those bombers when no Soviet interceptors are flying to that hex(why fly the fighters?) Or launching "numerous" CAP missions to shoot down Soviet fighters(this only gives the Soviet exp/morale and fatigues the Germans).

That is all the time I have to spend on this at the moment. You can ask any question you like but remember it is only my "opinion" ;-)

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I'am reading this thread and i have sometimes the impression that i'am not playing the same game.

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Now back to the over utilization I see Germans flying ground support, in the AAR's, where air support is not needed in a battle hex(why fly the support when you don't need it)

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ORIGINAL: Nix77
But as I've previously stated, the WitE air war system isn't top notch, and it's easier to "play against the system" with Soviet Air Force, since they just have more aircraft available.

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ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@HLYA: Thank you for your reply and I agree with your points about over utilisation of the German fighter arm. I would also add to your list of things the axis player has to pay attention to the items "never move a fighter group by moving its base, but only by air transfer" and "stack the fighter bases with a crazy amount of mixed and heavy (not light) LW flak bataillions" and "make sure that for every one of your air force blobs has at least 150 ready fighters/fighter bombers at the end of your turn".